Seabass
Active member
Faith does save, not works of merit.
Yet NT faith includes obedience as seen earlier how 'beleive" includes obedience in repentance, confession and baptism. And obedience is not a work of merit.
"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
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Yet NT faith includes obedience as seen earlier how 'beleive" includes obedience in repentance, confession and baptism. And obedience is not a work of merit.
mailmandan
Well-known member
Folks in the CoC onfuse "faith alone,' or faith only-ism per James 2:24 (empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone "barren of works" - James 2:14) which is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) That error remains their Achilles heel and also begets more error.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Logically, this can be true, possibly depending on what is being obeyed; however it also potentially CAN be a work of merit as well.
But because of our sin nature and self-righteous disposition, we are always gravitating and pulled back to a legalistic system of merited obligation instead of a system of grace-response based in mercy.
Secret spiritual pride is the number one sin among Christians, and must be exposed for what it is.
Dizerner
Well-known member
I find the error more focused on equivocation about how people are defining "works" and "alone."
There is a sense in which I'm okay with "faith alone as our substitute of merit."
Seabass
Active member
Grace and/or salvation are both free gifts and no one receives grace/salvation UNconditionally apart from obedience. Tts 2:11 God's saving grace hath appeared to all men...yet all men are not going to unconditionally receive grace for receiving God's grace is conditional upon obedience. Obedience is not a work of merit. The gift of grace can be forfieted due to disobedience 2 Cor 6:1 since it is gained conditionally by obedience
I more or less see grace and salvation as synonymous terms...if one receives grace he has received salvation or one receives salvation he has also received grace. I am not familiar with anyone in the NT who received grace but not salvation or received salvation but not grace. God has OFFERED grace/salvation to man but it is up to man to RECEIVE that offer by obedience to God or reject it by disobeying God.
Seabass
Active member
There is not a single example of a person's obedience to God in the Bible where that obedience is called a work of merit for works of merit and obedience are two totally, completely different things.
Dizerner
Well-known member
God bestows his grace upon all men, not just believers.
No one got saved without first experiencing the grace of God as a sinner.
Seabass
Active member
A NT faith that saves is a faith that includes obedience. The NT ties faith and obedience together so tightly faith is an OBEDIENT work.
The type of work James speaks about is obedience to God, not works of merit:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works (what type of work?), when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (obedient work).
Justification is impossible apart from obedience to God's will. Again, I find NO EXAMPLE in the BIble of God justifying those who continually live in disobedience, in unrighteous defiance to His will.
Rom 6:17-18
"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."
order of events;
1) were servants of sin (were serving the master of "sin unto death")
2) obeyed from the heart (started serving the master of "obedience unto righteousness")
3) then made freed from sin (justified)
Faith onlyists want to change the order of events. And again, I do not find God freeing from sin those that live in disobedient to his will free. God does not UNconditionally justify THEN man can obey, that idea is totally foreign to the NT.
Seabass
Active member
Maybe our difference is in symantics.
God has OFFERED His grace to all mankind thru Christ's death on the cross. Only those that obey God RECEIVE grace.
Hence there is no such thing as a "sinner saved by grace" for sinners have not complied to God's will, they live in defiance to God's will so they have not RECEIVED the grace God has OFFERED. It is Christians who are saved by grace for they have accepted that OFFER by obedience and therefore RECEIVED grace.
I can OFFER you a free gift. You decide if you want to RECEIVE it thru compliance or REJECT that offer thru non-compliance.
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
lol. You can obey al you want, your still lost.
John 3, John 4, John 5, John 6 Jhn 1. Eph 1 and 2
I can go on and on
A work of merit is a work done to merit something.
If your working to meet salvation, then it is a work of merit
Faith is what saveds us not works.
If you do not have faith you will nto work
Stop focusing on water and works. And start focusing on christ
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
Any work one does to earn a reward or a wage is a work of merit
God requires we love. Love fulfills the law.
Love is working not to gain anything, but because you love
Dizerner
Well-known member
The key phrase you have used here is "to earn."
I would encourage you study this little dissertation and tell me what you think:
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
One problem with this.The key phrase you have used here is "to earn."
I would encourage you study this little dissertation and tell me what you think:
1. It is the work of God we believe - John 6
2. For we have been saved by grace, through faith (faith is not how we were saved it is by Grace) not of works. This shows faith is not a work
3. If it is grace it is no longer works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Again. Faith is not a work. (It is a work of God)
If I am in a situation where I must be rescued. Me trusting the person to save me, is not me meriting my salvation, I just allowed the to save me I recieve it. In faith
If your rescuer tells you to "DO" what He says, and you shall be rescued, and you become a "Doer" of his saying, and not a hearer only, and you "do" as your rescuer instructs, and as a result, you are rescued. Whose "Work" were you saved by? Yours, or your rescuer?
Dizerner
Well-known member
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Eternally-Grateful
Active member
If i could save myself I would not need a rescuer.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Hi Studyman, @Eternally-Grateful and @Dizerner
Honestly, I don’t think that apostle Paul or James would get engaged with tricky questions, whose possible answers depend on how we use words and concepts.
Paul and James were not philosophers: they were pastors, and their concern was the arrogance within the church, that led to divisions.
The focus of Paul was the arrogance of those who boast on keeping the Law of Moses
The focus of James was the arrogance of those who boast on believing in God and Christ.
So, the point is to recognize in all truth that God is the ultimate source of any blessing we enjoy…. The true author of any virtue we display… and therefore, that is no reason to act as if our religious practices or beliefs made us superior to other men.
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Eternally-Grateful
Active member
I agree in part. But I think it goes much deeper than this. Then men were not only pastors but they were apostles.
Paul was fighting this religious attitude of merit based salvation. I agree with you that he spoke of those who focus on the law (gal 3) but he also focused on those who boasted in any work at all, in order to merit their salvation (romans 4 with titus 3: 5)
James on the other hand was speaking of those who boasted in believing (as you said) but he called for them to be hearers and not doers. Staying if they claimed to have saving faiht, but had no work, their faith was dead. I could see him saying this because there were people in his group that ws all talk and no action. I could see a pastor who has people who always boast in word. But never show up at any event where we are needed to work to serve others. And never do anythign around the church but mooch off people, going to that person and using James 1 and 2 to call him out. I have also seen many a people who have been called out walk awa, you usually find them mooching off another church later down the road.
mailmandan
Well-known member
NT faith that saves results in producing obedience/good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Yet we are still saved by grace through faith and not by obedience/good works which "follow." Faith is faith and obedience which "follows" is works. Faith is the root of salvation and obedience/works which "follow" are the fruit. Faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Unlike you, the apostle Paul clearly makes a distinction between faith AND works. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) The act of obedience that saves is choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow." (James 2:15-16; Ephesians 2:10; Titus 3:8)
That is an oxymoron. If we were saved by works in addition to faith, then these works would merit salvation. You can't have it both ways.
James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. So, Abraham was not justified (accounted as righteous) by works but he was justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21)
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
The Greek word for justifed is dikaioo. From Thayers. - https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/eng/greek/1344.html
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be - Romans 4:2-6 fits the context.
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - James 2:21, 24 fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
God's will for us in receiving eternal life. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Not to be confused with God's will AFTER we are saved. (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18) Misguided attempts at obedience that culminates in salvation by works is not God's will. (Matthew 7:21-23)
Those who refuse to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) are living in disobedience (Romans 10:16) in unrighteous defiance to His will (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) no matter how much other so-called obedience that they attempt to conjure up in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.
In regard to Romans 6:16, there are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death and servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we believe the gospel by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation/place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation (Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 5:1) we then become servants of obedience unto righteousness.
Being slaves of sin is put in the "past tense." Romans 6:18 - You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
In regard to Romans 6:17, before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by faith."
Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..
Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness.
Don't confuse faith only-ism per James 2:24 (empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone "barren of works" - James 2:14) which is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Big difference! You cannot seem to grasp this deeper faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation which also explains why you have so much faith in works for salvation.
Living in disobedience is 'descriptive' of unbelievers and not believers. (Ephesians 2:1-5) Misguided obedience that seeks to obtain salvation by works and refuses to believe the gospel is not obedience.
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