"Works Salvation"

[Pancho Frijoles]

h. According to the Evangelist, the patient is saved the minute he talks to the DR.

I agree.
Good works are evidence of a salvation happening in the present
Combustion emits light and heat. Light and heat are consequences of a combustion taking place.
Jesus compares his followers oil lamps. The light is a continuous phenomenon.

By the same token, Jesus compares the good teachers with trees bearing good fruit.
Bearing good fruit does not depend of How the tree was, but on How the tree is.
Salvation is a phenomenon anchored in the present.

I share your frustrations concerning mainstream Christianity, truly I do. But if God creates the Treatment for what ails me, and offers the Treatment to me for free, is this not His Grace? And if I choose to adopt the Treatment, that HE created and prescribed for me, then is the resulting healing produced by my own efforts? Or was it the Work of God that healed me?

I say it was the Work of God.

Yes, absolutely.
That’s why I insist that believing Christ means living the life He lived… Faith without works is just deception.
Believing in the doctor is taking his prescription, as you do.

I absolutely Love discourse with you, and your perspectives, even though they differ from mine on some things.

Me too, my friend.

 

[Jay]

who trusted in themselves that they were righteous (Lk. 18:9 NKJ)

||

Works salvation.

Works salvation is like choosing to retain the fig-leaf apron that Adam and Eve made—a symbol of works-salvation which God rejected. God Himself made the skin coverings for them, shedding innocent blood to do it. So the garments made by the Lord are a clear type of the covering of the blood of the Lamb of God, provided without human works.

For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;
9 Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]
Eph 2:8–9

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

People in the Bible are righteous by faith…

People in the Bible were called righteous because they practiced righteousness. So simple.
“Little children, let no one deceive you. The one who does righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.” (1 John 3:7)

Let no one deceive you. The value of the sacrifice of Jesus is that it inspires us and guide us to die to the old man, and live a life of righteousness.
“He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness”. 1 Peter 2:24

If a person does not practice righteousness his faith is no more than a set of doctrinal propositions. It is úseless, and that person is still dead in his sins.

 

[Jay]

The thing is no one can practice righteousness till after faith in Christ.

10. as it is written:“None is righteous, no, not one;
11. no one understands; no one seeks for God.
12. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

Anyone who does not remain in Christ’s teaching but goes beyond it offers what I call a “Bible plus” doctrine and a “Jesus plus” theology.

What kind of good works do you think the keeper of the prison did to earn his salvation?

And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, “Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.” Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:27‭-‬31

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The thing is no one can practice righteousness till after faith in Christ.

I agree.
When you see a Jew, a Sikh or Roman centurion practicing righteousness, the only possible explanation is that they have faith in Christ, regardless of their theology. Righteousness couldn’t be

• The action of Beelzebub (Acts 13:10)
• The result of their own efforts (James 1:17)

 

[Dizerner]

An outwardly moral act is not an adequately holy virtue, it is fraught with sin. This is why faith in Christ is absolutely necessary, and the whole world lies under the power of the wicked one with all born as children of wrath.

Dumping God's authority, dumping the Bible's priority, saying what is right in your own eyes is the standard of good, is wickedness.

And there will be an account for it, more severe when one knows the truth.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"Works salvation" is a term that gets thown around a lot on forums as this one.

SImple: it's the inaccurate belief that a person can "EARN THEIR SALVATION" by performing what they perceive to be GOOD WORS - religious or otherwise. It's a TOTAL LIE.

Salvation (Being Born Again spiritually happens by FAITH (Not "belief" - mental assent) in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the Cross which cleanses you from SIN. Eph 2:8,9

What is "works salvation"? How does one define "works salvation" according to the Bible?

I just did. "Works salvation doesn't exist

2) What is an example from the Bible of "works salvation"?

There is none.l

3) Was Noah's work in building the ark "to the saving of his house" (Heb 11:7) a "works salvation"?

Nope it was the obedient outworking of HIS FAITH in God's WORD. Rom 10:17

Is the above link correct in saying that "works salvation" is man trying to control his own eternal destiny?

Without bothering with anything from "Gotquestions" your description is accurate.

Is it true that man has no control, no role at all in his own eternal destiny? Did Noah have no control, no role at all in the saving of his house?

WE have a "Role" but we have NO ABILITY to "EARN" salvation, and our "Good works" in God's sight are just so much GARBAGE. It's FAITH (Heb 11:1) that does the trick, and nothing else does. Noah, Abraham, David, etc. did what they did AS THE RESULT of their FAITH.

 

[Studyman]

The thing is no one can practice righteousness till after faith in Christ.

10. as it is written:“None is righteous, no, not one;
11. no one understands; no one seeks for God.
12. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

The practice of Calling Jesus Lord, Lord, but not "Yielding ourselves" unto God, and living by Every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God, is not "Faith in Jesus". Being a "doer" of the Christ's Sayings, shows faith in Jesus. Yielding ourselves to God shows the Faith "of Jesus".

"And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross"

This is the perfection Jesus commanded and is the perfection the Faithful seek for, as Paul instructs in Philippians 3:14.

"I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God (Which is) in Christ Jesus."

It is those men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who profess to know God, that have the Oracles of God, but do not believe them, that Paul and David are speaking to in Psalms 5, 14 and Rom. 3.

Psalms 5: 8 Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face. 9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue. 10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for "they have rebelled against thee".

11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee. 12 For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.

Anyone who does not remain in Christ’s teaching but goes beyond it offers what I call a “Bible plus” doctrine and a “Jesus plus” theology.

What kind of good works do you think the keeper of the prison did to earn his salvation?

And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, “Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.” Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, "and you will be saved", you and your household.” Acts 16:27‭-‬31

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou "shalt" be saved, and thy house.

Jesus told this man, "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. (The "Doers" of the Christ's saying, "Shall" be Saved)

Jesus then, told the keeper of the Prison, "Except you repent ye shall all surely perish". (Those who repent of their sins from the heart, "Shall be Saved")

He told him, "You shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God". (Those who become servants of God's Righteousness "shall be saved").

He told him, "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee". (Those who strive against transgressing God's commandments "Shall be saved")

Paul told him "that he should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. (Men who "believe" on these Words enough to actually "DO" them, "Shall be saved")

Paul told him to "yield himself unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and his members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

The Apostles told him to "abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Those men who have the Oracles of God, "32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house", and believe them enough to be more than just a forgetful hearer, but as Jesus and Paul teach, a "doer" of the Word, "Shall be Saved" as it is written:

Rom. 2: 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law "shall" be justified.

It is those who have the Oracles of God, but do not believe them, "workers of iniquity", that Paul and David were speaking to in Rom. 3, Psalms 5 and 14. It is men who "Come in Christ's Name" and call Him Lord, Lord, or transform themselves into Apostles of Christ, but are not "Doers" of His Sayings, that the following applies to.

10. as it is written:“None is righteous, no, not one;
11. no one understands; no one seeks for God.
12. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

Ps. 14: 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up "my people" as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in "the generation of the righteous".

But who believes His Inspired Word? As Jesus Himself said,

7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

An outwardly moral act is not an adequately holy virtue, it is fraught with sin.

Now the adjective is "outwardly".
The list of adjectives used in this Forum to negate the work of the Spirit on the Sikh or the Catholic priest have included:

• Outward morality
• Self-righteousness
• Hypocrisy
• Works-based salvation
• Illusory
• Produced by own efforts
• Produced by the devil, who can disguise as "angel of light"

It is really sad, and alarming, that you and other dozen of Forum members are so blind to the works of the Spirit in the lives of people.
You reject what your theology can't accept, even if the holy Catholic priest or the holy Sikh acts before your eyes.

You resort to fantasies to keep hanging from the thread of your theological understanding.
That thread will break.
God, however, has a good safety net ready for you.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

What kind of good works do you think the keeper of the prison did to earn his salvation?

None.
Now, if we had been there, how would we have known that the keeper of the prison was saved?

 

[Dizerner]

Now the adjective is "outwardly".
The list of adjectives used in this Forum to negate the work of the Spirit on the Sikh or the Catholic priest have included:

• Outward morality
• Self-righteousness
• Hypocrisy
• Works-based salvation
• Illusory
• Produced by own efforts
• Produced by the devil, who can disguise as "angel of light"

That's a very good list.

And it's absurd to be so arrogant to think you can know every person's innermost motivations and heart just because they look good to you.

Do you realize how arrogant that is? Claiming a knowledge that only your Creator can have? It's sheer arrogance.

In my case I don't judge the outward appearance—I judge by what God's Word tells me, that a person must profess faith in Christ.

It is really sad, and alarming, that you and other dozen of Forum members are so blind to the works of the Spirit in the lives of people.
You reject what your theology can't accept, even if the holy Catholic priest or the holy Sikh acts before your eyes.

No, I reject what the Holy Spirit reveals through Scripture is the working of the Evil One, namely your lies about a holiness that doesn't exist.

man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." (1 Sam. 16:7 NKJ)

You don't really know the Bible at all, you quote mine it for your special version of self-righteous spiritualism.

You resort to fantasies to keep hanging from the thread of your theological understanding.
That thread will break.
God, however, has a good safety net ready for you.

You know nothing at all when you reject your own sinfulness before a holy God.

Understand what repentance really is.

 

[Jay]

None.
Now, if we had been there, how would we have known that the keeper of the prison was saved?

That's not out job.

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

All we know is that he had the desire to be saved and I'm sure that Paul was the man to lead him to Jesus.

God has already done all of the work. All we must do is receive, in faith, the salvation God offers Ephesians 2:8–9

Fully trust in Jesus alone as the payment for our sins. Believe in Him, and you will not perish John 3:16

God is offering you salvation as a gift. All you have to do is accept it. Jesus is the way of salvation John 14:6

 

[Seabass]

SImple: it's the inaccurate belief that a person can "EARN THEIR SALVATION" by performing what they perceive to be GOOD WORS - religious or otherwise. It's a TOTAL LIE.

Salvation (Being Born Again spiritually happens by FAITH (Not "belief" - mental assent) in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the Cross which cleanses you from SIN. Eph 2:8,9

I just did. "Works salvation doesn't exist

There is none.l

Nope it was the obedient outworking of HIS FAITH in God's WORD. Rom 10:17

Without bothering with anything from "Gotquestions" your description is accurate.

WE have a "Role" but we have NO ABILITY to "EARN" salvation, and our "Good works" in God's sight are just so much GARBAGE. It's FAITH (Heb 11:1) that does the trick, and nothing else does. Noah, Abraham, David, etc. did what they did AS THE RESULT of their FAITH.

I have never said good works earn salvation. Salvation is a free gift, hence it cannot be earned. What faith onlyists refuse to admit is that free gifts can come with conditions and meeting the conditions on a free gift earns NOTHING.

This is why there is no example in the BIble where a person's obedience to God is said to have earned God's free gift or that God owed a person for their obedience. God owed Naaman nothing but graciously offered Naaman free gift of healing for his disease yet GOD PUT CONDITIONS on that free gifts...Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan River. Naaman would NEVER receive this free gift unless/until he met GOD'S conditions and meeting those conditions earned him nothing.

This is why it cannot be found in the Bible where disobedient, unrighteous people who live in rebellion to God's will UNCONDITIONALLY received God's free gift of salvation. This is why the idea of "a sinner saved by grace" is not found in the Bible. In Rom 6, Paul was addressing Christians and his point was because CHRISTIANS are saved by grace that does not give the Christian a license to sin. CHRISTIANS are saved by grace for it is Christians who have CONDITIONALLY, obediently complied to God's will thereby receiving the free gift of salvation. It is sinners who live in disobedience, in rebellion and defiance to God's will thereby do not unconditionally receive the free gift of salvation. The idea of men UNconditionally reveiving God's free gift regardless of how they live is completely foreign to the NT gospel of Christ.

 

[civic]

I have never said good works earn salvation. Salvation is a free gift, hence it cannot be earned. What faith onlyists refuse to admit is that free gifts can come with conditions and meeting the conditions on a free gift earns NOTHING.

This is why there is no example in the BIble where a person's obedience to God is said to have earned God's free gift or that God owed a person for their obedience. God owed Naaman nothing but graciously offered Naaman free gift of healing for his disease yet GOD PUT CONDITIONS on that free gifts...Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan River. Naaman would NEVER receive this free gift unless/until he met GOD'S conditions and meeting those conditions earned him nothing.

This is why it cannot be found in the Bible where disobedient, unrighteous people who live in rebellion to God's will UNCONDITIONALLY received God's free gift of salvation. This is why the idea of "a sinner saved by grace" is not found in the Bible. In Rom 6, Paul was addressing Christians and his point was because CHRISTIANS are saved by grace that does not give the Christian a license to sin. CHRISTIANS are saved by grace for it is Christians who have CONDITIONALLY, obediently complied to God's will thereby receiving the free gift of salvation. It is sinners who live in disobedience, in rebellion and defiance to God's will thereby do not unconditionally receive the free gift of salvation. The idea of men UNconditionally reveiving God's free gift regardless of how they live is completely foreign to the NT gospel of Christ.

ditto good points.

 

[Seabass]

I have seen some say that even avoiding sin is a work and therefore an affront to the sacrifice of Jesus. Any idea can be taken to an extremist position and not really make sense anymore. So hyper grace, irresistible grace, unmerited grace, etc are all false ideas. Also, we should be careful using Biblical buzzwords like "works" when it isn't actually a naughty word. The Bible describes plenty of places where someone needs to do some work in their salvation.

Yes, obedience in doing God's will is not a naughty word....obedience is a good word. Great men in the Bible were obedient to God, Christ Himself was obedient to His Father.

It is those who obey God's will are the ones God accepts Acts 10:34-35. Jesus is the Author of salvation to all that obey him (Heb 5:9) It is the faith onlyists who do not like the word obedience and try to dirty it up by calling it "legalism" or attempting to call obedience a work of merit when obedience and works of merit are two completely different things....all works are not alike...some works cannot save while work of obedience to God's will does save, see Rom 10:3

 

[Seabass]

One word “believe” represents all a sinner can do and all a sinner must do to be saved. The Gospel does not inspire a hope that God will be gracious: it discloses the good news that He has been gracious and challenges every man but to believe it.

Jesus did it all by hanging on a cross.

A person can be saved while remaining impenitent of his sins, Lk 13:3?
All the belief only in the world can never save an impenitent person. Jesus did not hang on a cross whereby men can continue to live in his sins and yet be saved anyway.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

A person can be saved while remaining impenitent of his sins, Lk 13:3?
All the belief only in the world can never save an impenitent person. Jesus did not hang on a cross whereby men can continue to live in his sins and yet be saved anyway.

If a person believes, they have repented.

There is no faith apart from repentance.

 

[mailmandan]

If a person believes, they have repented.

There is no faith apart from repentance.

Exactly! Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - and saying, The time has come, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe the gospel.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Two sides to the same coin. Certain folks error by trying to redefine repentance as "moral self-reformation/behavior modification" and place it "after" faith for salvation. Which ultimately ends up culminating in works salvation.

 

[Seabass]

If a person believes, they have repented.

There is no faith apart from repentance.

I agree. The verb "believe" must also include confession (Matt 10:32-33; Rom 10:9-10) and water baptism (Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 2:41 cf v44).

So in the NT, the verb believe is used as a figure of speech... a synechdoche...a part for the whole where believe (the part) stands for the whole (repentance, confession, baptism). Hence there is no faith apart from repentance, no faith apart from confession, no faith apart from water baptism.....in other words, there is no faith apart from obedience to God's will in repentance, confession and baptism.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I agree. The verb "believe" must also include confession (Matt 10:32-33; Rom 10:9-10) and water baptism (Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 2:41 cf v44).

So in the NT, the verb believe is used as a figure of speech... a synechdoche...a part for the whole where believe (the part) stands for the whole (repentance, confession, baptism). Hence there is no faith apart from repentance, no faith apart from confession, no faith apart from water baptism.

I was baptized By God. Into Christ.

You go ahead and have faith in water..

I would suggest you repent.