Most Evangelicals will agree that works are the evidence of salvation, not the cause of salvation.
Since we are saved, we produce good works. So far, so good.
Very good to hear from you Pancho.
That is a popular religious philosophy. But we differ on our understanding of Scriptures on this point, I think. Modern Christianity teaches that the "Saving" comes first. That Passover is the "END" of Salvation. And once the Passover Lamb is slain, we are saved, and therefore "ANY" works we do, are directed by Christ, and they are "good works". This leads to hundreds of different traditions, judgments, commandments, high days, images of God, etc., all considered by whichever religious sect we adopt, as "Good Works" produced "because" we are already saved.
This is a great marketing strategy and seductive religious philosophy to get people to adopt, contribute to, and promote one of these many religious sects, as they compete with each other for butts to fill the seats of their manmade shrines of worship. And it would be great, accept, it isn't what is taught in the Holy Scriptures at all. Passover is only the beginning of our journey to Salvation. There are many places where this is shown in scriptures, but Paul, in 1 Cor. 10, spells this truth out nicely.
The Death of the Passover Lamb "Reconciled" us to God. Now we can "turn to God" and do works worthy of repentance. We can "put on" the New Man, which after God is created in Righteousness and True Holiness. We can't "Live by" Every word of God, not this world's religious sects and businesses.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, "If" any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but "if" thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Jesus answered and said unto him, "If" a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Ye are my friends, "if" ye do whatsoever I command you.
For "if", when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
For "if" ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but "if" ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For "if" God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, "if" thou continue "in his goodness": otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
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If" any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
I could keep going, but it's clear that "After" the Passover Lamb of God was Slain, men are not automatically Once Saved Always Saved.
The example of the Exodus, according to Paul, is the Examples God had written to show this very truth, so we can "Endure to the End" and be saved.
So my brother, since we do not see eye to eye on this important Biblical point, it would be difficult to address your metaphors. Nevertheless, I will try.
If the patient who was in the brink of death now is able to eat well, work, dance and laugh, he is giving evidence that he was saved from his situation. If the patient still remains in a hospital bed in comma, then it is evidence that he has not been saved yet. So far, so good.
But my friend, this is a different circumstance than you began with. According to the Evangelist, the patient is saved the minute he talks to the DR. Therefore, "IF" the patient adopts the treatment, or whatever parts he wants, or not, it doesn't matter, because he is already saved. "IF" he doesn't take the pills as instructed, it doesn't matter, because he is already saved. "IF" he doesn't change his diet as instructed, it doesn't matter, because he is already saved.
And a year later he is still "
walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".
However, if his life depends on "IF" he follows the DR's instruction or not, then if he faithfully denies himself, if he sticks to his diet, and if he follows the Instructions of the DR, then he "shall be saved" from his condition. Of course, the patient would have to have faith in this DR., that he knew what he was talking about, to faithfully follow the instruction, Yes?
The problem starts when I tell them that a Sikh, Catholic priest or Muslim who is living the life that Christ commanded us to live, proves that God's salvific grace is working on them.
But my friend, Jesus said to "Live by" God's Words as given by Moses and the Prophets. If a Sikh believed in this Christ, he wouldn't continue in the traditions, judgments and high days of the Sikh. The Catholic wouldn't continue in the traditions, judgments and high days of the Catholic. The Muslim wouldn't continue in the traditions, judgments or high days of the Muslim. Wouldn't they all abandon their worldly religions, and adopt the traditions, judgments and High Days promoted by the God of Abraham, and walked in by His Righteous Son? Then there wouldn't be 3 different religions, promoting 3 different traditions, judgments or high days, all of which "Transgress God's Commandments" as HE said not to partake of them.
We would end up with 3 brothers, all of the same mind that was in Christ Jesus, All part of the ONE Church Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Caleb, Joshua, Shadrack, Zacharias, Anna, Cornelious, and every example of Faithful man in the entire Bible adopted.
When this happens, isn't this evidence of God's "Salvific Grace" working on all 3 men?
Then they either get paralized, or start saying that their holy life is fake. An Evangelical who risks his life to save others shows the fruit of the Spirit. A Sikh who does exactly the same is hypocritical, looks for self-righteousness, is phony. In other words, the tree is not judged by the fruit, but by the creed, in clear deviation from Jesus' teachings.
But
"if" the Evangelical denied himself, and "Yielded himself" to God, and his members as instruments of righteousness "Unto God", he wouldn't be an Evangelical. I have risked my life for others, and very nearly got killed in the process. But I didn't care one hoot about God at the time, as I "
walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience". Therefore, "risking my life for others" is profitable, "If I am obedient to God", but if I'm not, then wjhat does it really mean? Who was I Glorifying?
There are lots of people happy to bask in the rewards of this life, doesn't God let them?
What if God knows better than man, how to cleanse their inner self? What if God knows what HE was doing when HE created His Commandments, Judgments and high days, knowing that men who "Yield themselves" to Him in Faith, will benefit from trusting His Inspired Word.
"IF" he trusts them "
for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".
What if the Great Doctor knows what men need, and has prescribed it in His Simple instruction? Shall I not believe Him?
I could get a 2nd opinion, but from who?
Or else, they start explaining that their holy life is the product of their own efforts... as if our own efforts could produce a holy life! What is God's grace for, then?
I share your frustrations concerning mainstream Christianity, truly I do. But if God creates the Treatment for what ails me, and offers the Treatment to me for free, is this not His Grace? And if I choose to adopt the Treatment, that HE created and prescribed for me, then is the resulting healing
produced by my own efforts? Or was it the Work of God that healed me?
I say it was the Work of God.
This is the point where our Evangelical friends make an incredible turn from a grace-based salvation to a creed-based salvation.
People have to be persuaded on Jesus deity, PSA and physical resurrection, so that we can consider their works evidence of God's grace.
For others, these people have to answer correctly to a long quiz, that includes questions like "Do you believe that God created the universe in 6 literal days?"
I absolutely Love discourse with you, and your perspectives, even though they differ from mine on some things. But I completely agree with you about God's Grace. It is offered to Every One. This is more proof to me that men are not saved at the first meeting with the DR. It is a process, it takes self-denial, turning away from our old self, our traditions, religious beliefs, it brings humility, sorrow, shame sometimes, commitment, all side effects of the treatment God prescribes for our wellbeing. etc. We begin as a child, as we grow, we receive more wisdom. As long as we stick to the prescription given to us by our great Doctor, in faith that HIS Prescription will save us, we will be saved.
For me it's a way of life, as it was for Jesus and the examples of Faithful men given in the Bible.
I guess someday we will know, or not. But I am committed to this life, and it has been good to me.
It's all I have to share with you. Thank you for the reply, and your questions which make a man think. I hope you have a great rest of your day.
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