"Works Salvation"

That "IS" a "work of Faith" Yes?
Yes
God through His Prophets and even His Own Son has told us from the very beginning to deny ourselves and follow "His" Instructions. To "Seek His Righteousness". To "Turn to Him", to "rely on HIM for our strength", not ourselves or this world's religious institutions. Why do you think the Law and Prophets is full of stories like David and Goliath, and stories about how a few men who trusted God turned away thousands that didn't.
In 1 Samuel 16 David is anointed by Samuel. "Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward.

In the next chapter David slays Goliath because of the power of God.
What do you think the "Armor of God" is? But if a man refuses to "Put it on", how does it benefit him? If a man chooses religious tradition over "Yielding ourselves to God" as Paul teaches, how can they prosper?
The whole armor of God is abiding in Jesus continuously by every element available to us. Those who don't may end for themselves their path of salvation, as salvation is at the end of the path, not the beginning as something to lose. 1 Peter 1:9 "receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls."

The "Way of the Lord" is the Path to Salvation. Jesus said to "Strive for it". This is the Labor/work that counts, as Paul teaches.
This "work" was spreading the gospel of Christ.
same.
 
Yes

In 1 Samuel 16 David is anointed by Samuel. "Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward.

In the next chapter David slays Goliath because of the power of God.

Yes, by the Power of God, not the philosophies of this world's religious institution.

"But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart".

The whole armor of God is abiding in Jesus continuously by every element available to us.

This is what you may have been taught by this world's religions. But how can I abide in the Jesus "of the Bible", according to HIS Teaching? He said, by being a "Doer" of His Sayings, and not a hearer only. So it is prudent that I follow what His Inspired Apostles actually teach. If I put on the Armor of God, as defined in Scriptures, then I am in Christ, as HE wore the same Armor to resist the wiles of the devil towards Him. This can be seen in Matt. 4 perfectly.

Those who don't may end for themselves their path of salvation, as salvation is at the end of the path, not the beginning as something to lose. 1 Peter 1:9 "receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls."

I believe it is prudent to examine all of the Scriptures in a chapter, in order to understand what is being taught.

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end "for the grace that is to be brought unto you" at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Truly important is the instruction of "putting on the Armor" of God, as opposed to relying on Jesus to resist the wiles of the devil for us. as is implied by "many" who come in His Name.

This "work" was spreading the gospel of Christ.

same.

For me, I have come to believe all of what Paul actually teaches.

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

That is why it is so important to deny ourselves and become "doers" of His Sayings. This would include "Taking Heed" we are not deceived by the "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord.
 
Yes, by the Power of God, not the philosophies of this world's religious institution.

This is what you may have been taught by this world's religions. But how can I abide in the Jesus "of the Bible", according to HIS Teaching? He said, by being a "Doer" of His Sayings, and not a hearer only. So it is prudent that I follow what His Inspired Apostles actually teach. If I put on the Armor of God, as defined in Scriptures, then I am in Christ, as HE wore the same Armor to resist the wiles of the devil towards Him. This can be seen in Matt. 4 perfectly.
No, I left all man's denominations. I asked God to wipe my mind of all past doctrines of man that I picked up, and asked God to reteach me according to His truth by the Spirit of Truth. And He has.

I agree. CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!
For me, I have come to believe all of what Paul actually teaches.

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

That is why it is so important to deny ourselves and become "doers" of His Sayings. This would include "Taking Heed" we are not deceived by the "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord.
You must be careful though as some of what Paul teaches is not about or for Christians but for those still in the process of seeking Jesus. Romans 7:14-25 is a case in point. It describes what the Jews under the Law went through when trying to keep the letter of the Law while still having a sin nature called "the flesh" that born again Christians no longer have. Do you agree or disagree?
 
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Is Romans 7:14-25 describing a believer or an unbeliever?​


Romans 7:14–25 is a passage that has caused some confusion among Bible students because of the strong language Paul uses to describe himself. How can the greatest of the apostles characterize himself, and by extension, all Christians, as “unspiritual,” a “slave to sin” and a “prisoner of the law of sin”? Aren’t these descriptions used in Romans 7:14–25 descriptions of unbelievers? How can Paul describe himself in these terms if he is truly saved? The key to understanding Romans 7:14–25 is Paul’s description of the two natures of a Christian. Prior to salvation, we have only one nature—the sin nature. But once we come to Christ, we are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), but we still abide in the old flesh which has the remains of the sinful nature within it. These two natures war constantly with one another, continually pulling the believer in opposite directions.

The desires of the believer’s spiritual nature pull him in the direction of good while the flesh in which he lives pulls him in the other. He wants to do one thing but has something within him that does the opposite. So how do these evil desires differ from those of an unbeliever? Simply put, the believer hates the evil flesh in which he lives and desires to be freed from it, whereas unbelievers have no such desire. So strong is Paul’s desire to live godly and so frustrated is he that his flesh wars against his spirit that he finally cries out in desperation, “What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?” Of course, the answer is Jesus Christ our Lord (verse 25). One day believers will be completely freed from the body of death in which we live when we are glorified with Christ in heaven, but until that day we rely on the power of the Spirit who indwells us and gives us victory in the ongoing battle with sin.

In Romans 7:14–25, the apostle Paul puts into practical language the fact that he is a redeemed sinner who still has a carnal body, the flesh that wars against the indwelling Spirit. In another place the apostle says, “That Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the chief” (1 Timothy 1:15). The personal pronouns in these passages are not just an artifice but a statement of reality and the honest evaluation of a man who examines himself in the light of who he is and who our Lord Jesus is and comes to the conclusion that he is a wretched man in need of deliverance. This is not the deliverance from the penalty of sin—that was paid for on the cross—but deliverance from the power of sin.

As a faithful teacher, the apostle Paul in Romans 7:14–25 uses his own experiences and what he has learned through them to teach other believers how to use God’s provision and our position in Christ to overcome the struggle with our carnal nature. Praise God that we have such a wonderful thesis that not only truthfully exposes the struggle between the spiritual nature and the flesh in which it resides, but most importantly presents us with the tremendous hope and confidence in our salvation: “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1).

Got?
 

Is Romans 7:14-25 describing a believer or an unbeliever?​


Romans 7:14–25 is a passage that has caused some confusion among Bible students because of the strong language Paul uses to describe himself. How can the greatest of the apostles characterize himself, and by extension, all Christians, as “unspiritual,” a “slave to sin” and a “prisoner of the law of sin”? Aren’t these descriptions used in Romans 7:14–25 descriptions of unbelievers? How can Paul describe himself in these terms if he is truly saved? The key to understanding Romans 7:14–25 is Paul’s description of the two natures of a Christian. Prior to salvation, we have only one nature—the sin nature. But once we come to Christ, we are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), but we still abide in the old flesh which has the remains of the sinful nature within it. These two natures war constantly with one another, continually pulling the believer in opposite directions.

The desires of the believer’s spiritual nature pull him in the direction of good while the flesh in which he lives pulls him in the other. He wants to do one thing but has something within him that does the opposite. So how do these evil desires differ from those of an unbeliever? Simply put, the believer hates the evil flesh in which he lives and desires to be freed from it, whereas unbelievers have no such desire. So strong is Paul’s desire to live godly and so frustrated is he that his flesh wars against his spirit that he finally cries out in desperation, “What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?” Of course, the answer is Jesus Christ our Lord (verse 25). One day believers will be completely freed from the body of death in which we live when we are glorified with Christ in heaven, but until that day we rely on the power of the Spirit who indwells us and gives us victory in the ongoing battle with sin.

In Romans 7:14–25, the apostle Paul puts into practical language the fact that he is a redeemed sinner who still has a carnal body, the flesh that wars against the indwelling Spirit. In another place the apostle says, “That Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the chief” (1 Timothy 1:15). The personal pronouns in these passages are not just an artifice but a statement of reality and the honest evaluation of a man who examines himself in the light of who he is and who our Lord Jesus is and comes to the conclusion that he is a wretched man in need of deliverance. This is not the deliverance from the penalty of sin—that was paid for on the cross—but deliverance from the power of sin.

As a faithful teacher, the apostle Paul in Romans 7:14–25 uses his own experiences and what he has learned through them to teach other believers how to use God’s provision and our position in Christ to overcome the struggle with our carnal nature. Praise God that we have such a wonderful thesis that not only truthfully exposes the struggle between the spiritual nature and the flesh in which it resides, but most importantly presents us with the tremendous hope and confidence in our salvation: “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1).

Got?
How soon we forget the verses before Romans 7:14-25. CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!

7: 5-6 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

What you are following is "another Jesus." It is false doctrine. Jesus, my God and the true Savior, takes away our sins of the flesh, and in Him is no sin. That's because He cleanses our NATURE, the old source of sin, the old man, Romans 6:5-7. We are no longer in the flesh, therefore we no longer have a sin nature, but can now partake of the divine nature of God. He then works to mature the fruit of the Spirit until we never stumble. He makes us perfect, as long as we abide in Him.
 
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"Works salvation" is a term that gets thown around a lot on forums as this one.

1) What is "works salvation"? How does one define "works salvation" according to the Bible?

2) What is an example from the Bible of "works salvation"?

3) Was Noah's work in building the ark "to the saving of his house" (Heb 11:7) a "works salvation"?


Is the above link correct in saying that "works salvation" is man trying to control his own eternal destiny? Is it true that man has no control, no role at all in his own eternal destiny? Did Noah have no control, no role at all in the saving of his house?
I have seen some say that even avoiding sin is a work and therefore an affront to the sacrifice of Jesus. Any idea can be taken to an extremist position and not really make sense anymore. So hyper grace, irresistible grace, unmerited grace, etc are all false ideas. Also, we should be careful using Biblical buzzwords like "works" when it isn't actually a naughty word. The Bible describes plenty of places where someone needs to do some work in their salvation.
 
If salvation is given after a man has met some condition, then it becomes a reward for works, a wage which God would be obliged to give. This is contrary to Grace Rom 4:1-4

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works[any condition], he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh[met condition] is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
 
No, I left all man's denominations. I asked God to wipe my mind of all past doctrines of man that I picked up, and asked God to reteach me according to His truth by the Spirit of Truth. And He has.

For me as well, accept the part about being finished driving the leavens and deceptions out of my mind. He does this in His Time, "little by little" as HE promised on the journey HE called me on. Be careful about believing HE is done cleansing you to the point that you refuse to see what HE has revealed. I am joyful that you have "Come out of" this world's religious system and the doctrines and philosophies promoted therein.

I agree. CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!

You must be careful though as some of what Paul teaches is not about or for Christians but for those still in the process of seeking Jesus. Romans 7:14-25 is a case in point. It describes what the Jews under the Law went through when trying to keep the letter of the Law while still having a sin nature called "the flesh" that born again Christians no longer have. Do you agree or disagree?

I believe what is written. I know since my youth this world's religions have been telling me that the Pharisees were trying to please God and earn His Favor/Salvation by keeping God's Law "to the letter".

So I asked Jesus "Were the Pharisees trying to keep the letter of the Law to earn Salvation?

Mark 7: 9 And "he said" unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

And again:

John 7: 19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

I asked Paul:

Rom. 10: 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about "to establish their own righteousness", have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

I asked Stephen, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Moses as well. And they all said the same about the religious sect of the Pharisees and their fathers. I am happy to quote them as well, if you want to see what they also tell me about the rebellious Jews.

So although it is a very popular religious philosophy being promoted by the religions of this world, that the Pharisees were trying to earn Salvation by obeying Gods Law, this philosophy is a falsehood, a deception. Zacharias in Luke 1, kept God's Law. Simeon and Anna as well. Hebrews 11 is full of examples of people who denied themselves and strived against transgression of God's Laws. But the Pharisees didn't strive to keep God's Laws. They created their own judgments, their own sabbaths, their own commandments, and were promoting this path as the Way to the Kingdom of God.

So no my friend, I do not agree with your teaching concerning the Pharisees.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

What is the remedy for this curse, according to Paul?

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind "I myself serve the law of God"; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The Law said I was dead in my trespasses and sins. My High Priest offered His sinless life to God to cover my sins, freeing me from the Law that killed me, to serve this God anew.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, (Alive) and not in the oldness of the letter.(Dead)

And who then, does Paul teach me to "Yield myself" a servant to obey? The religious sect of the Pharisees? The religious sect of the Catholic religion? The religious sects of the Protestant religions too numerous to count?

No, I am taught by Paul to "Yield myself" a servant to obey God with my mind, body and soul. Like Jesus did.
 
The Law said I was dead in my trespasses and sins. My High Priest offered His sinless life to God to cover my sins, freeing me from the Law that killed me, to serve this God anew.
When speaking of what the blood of Jesus did for us, don't use the word "cover" use "takes away."

Did you know that there are two types of sin? Or do you believe "sin is sin"?
 
The Scriptures, both in Proverbs and the letters of the New Testament, have a lot to say about self-control. Paul lists it as one expression of the fruit of the Spirit.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

And he includes a lack of self-control in the list of vices characteristic of the last days.
Without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 2 Timothy 3:3

His instructions to Titus regarding his ministry in Crete included several exhortations to teach self-control:
2 Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.
3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.
Titus 2:2-6

And a reminder that the same grace that brings salvation also trains us to live self-controlled lives:
11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, Titus 2:11-12

Then Peter urges us to be sober-minded, or self-controlled, several times in his two letters

13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 1 Peter 1:13

7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray. 1 Peter 4:7

Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 2 Peter 1:5-6

Despite the scriptural teaching on self-control, I suspect this is one virtue that receives little conscious attention from most Christians. We have boundaries from our Christian culture that tend to restrain us from obvious sins, but within those boundaries we pretty much live as we please. We seldom say no to our desires and emotions. A lack of self-control may well be one of our more “respectable” sins. And because we tolerate this, we become more vulnerable to other “respectable” sins.

A lack of control of our tongue, for example, opens the door to all manner of defiling speech such as sarcasm, gossip, slander, and ridicule.
 
A salvation which requires a man to do anything in order to get saved, or stay saved, is a salvation which requires man to assist God before, and so that, God can realise the fulfilment of His own will. Any so-called god that requires the assistance of man to successfully complete his own will, is an impotent god, and not the Almighty God of the Scriptures Who alone does whatsoever He wills.

Ps 115:3

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

The word pleased is the word ḥāp̄ēṣ:

to delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with

  1. to delight in, have pleasure in
  2. to be pleased to do

Dan 4 35

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
 
For me as well, accept the part about being finished driving the leavens and deceptions out of my mind. He does this in His Time, "little by little" as HE promised on the journey HE called me on. Be careful about believing HE is done cleansing you to the point that you refuse to see what HE has revealed. I am joyful that you have "Come out of" this world's religious system and the doctrines and philosophies promoted therein.
Actually, I know I hold no doctrine of man or demon anymore. What I now believe and understand is from Him. But He is still teaching me interpretations of His Word I never knew before. The latest was the verse on binding and loosing given to Peter and the rest of the apostles, not us.
 
So to add a work, a condition to salvation which must be met before one can be saved, is to make salvation something deserved, and, therefore, not something which comes purely by and because of grace. Its a denial of Salvation by Grace ! Rom 11:6

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
 
Many who try to couple grace with works, say that God saves by grace after you accept His offer. In other words, ‘God saves by that which is undeserved after you have done something to deserve it’! Even if the only requirement man believes he must fulfil is to ‘accept God’s offer’, it is still a work which merits a response from God.
 
So to add a work, a condition to salvation which must be met before one can be saved, is to make salvation something deserved, and, therefore, not something which comes purely by and because of grace. Its a denial of Salvation by Grace ! Rom 11:6

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
So when someone gives you a gift, all you do is mindlessly stare at it with no offer of any thanksgiving on your part? You are a weird one.
 
Then continue to mindlessly stare at the gift with no gratitude.
Receiving that which is of God is about God giving it, not a man accepting it. To receive is to have been given, not to have accepted. Ine cannot receive Spiritually until its given Jn 3:27

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Spiritual gifts are from heaven James 1:17

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Those who are saved are saved because they have been given salvation, not because they have done anything to accept it !

Both the giving of grace and the receiving are gifts. So one cannot boast for receiving spiritual gifts and favors as what they did made the difference 1 Cor 4:7

7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
 
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Receiving that which is of God is about God giving it, not a man accepting it. To receive is to have been given, not to have accepted. Ine cannot receive Spiritually until its given Jn 3:27

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Spiritual gifts are from heaven James 1:17

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Those who are saved are saved because they have been given salvation, not because they have done anything to accept it !

Both the giving of grace and the receiving are gifts. So one cannot boast for receiving spiritual gifts and favors as what they did made the difference 1 Cor 4:7

7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
All those verses confirm that salvation is a gift. Where we differ is that you mindlessly do nothing, mindlessly wait for the zapping and mindlessly stare at the gift with no gratitude whatsoever. Somebody should conduct a study on the level of Autism amongst calvinists.
 
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All those verses confirm that salvation is a gift. Where we differ is that you mindlessly do nothing, mindlessly wait for the zapping and mindlessly stare at the gift with no gratitude whatsoever. Somebody should conduct a study on the level of Autism amongst calvinists.
It is just a formal dogmatic autism, synergy.
Have you met real life Calvinists?
All I have met have been proactive people, who run the race just like you and me.

Many of the people who made the United States a wealthy nation were hard-working Calvinists.
 
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