"Works Salvation"

[brightfame52]

We have been through this many times. Scripture says (and Scripture contains no error) that Jesus died for the sins of not only the saved, but the sins of the whole world as well (1 John 2:2). And that fact that Jesus is Lord, Prince and savior is not under debate. We both agree to this fact. Yet you would have Him as a liar as well. You claim that He did not mean what He said when He told us that those who hear the Gospel, believe it and are baptized will receive His salvation. You claim that He really meant that those who are already saved will believe and be baptized. But that those who are not saved will not believe. That is a severe twisting of the Scriptures.

Nothing chages.

 

[Cyrus]

He died specifically for His Church and gives them both repentance and forgiveness of sins. And because He gives repentance, that puts away unbelief as well.

Christians believe that Jesus died for everyone who has or ever will live; this is the doctrine of unlimited atonement. He died for individuals
He died for persons. Not just the elect. Jesus died for persons with names, faces, personalities, disabilities, histories, and sins. He did that because he loves each person. Jesus died for the whosoevers.

That's the key to the Gospel call is “whosoever.” Whosoever Shall Believe: It is by faith that we are saved, and whosoever shall believe will see salvation. “God so loved the world, that he gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

 

[Doug Brents]

Nothing chages.

Especially the truth of Scripture. I find it amazing how you can read the same words that others do, and come away with such a different and improper understanding. But then, Satan does too, and he is much wiser and more intelligent than either you or I are.

 

[Cyrus]

Nothing chages.

Actually it does there are many people that leave the darkness of Calvinism and coming to the light. It's a change for the better. They change for the better when they become more loving and more caring and when they start seeing God for who he really is. And when they stop trying to defending a monstrous idol Created by John Calvin and his perversion of the Gospel.

 

[Cyrus]

Especially the truth of Scripture. I find it amazing how you can read the same words that others do, and come away with such a different and improper understanding. But then, Satan does too, and he is much wiser and more intelligent than either you or I are.

Well he is the author of lies, But he's also a defeated foe that we don't wrestle with in flesh and blood. The good news is Jesus left us the Holy Spirit who guides and direct us into all truth. We just need to put our armor on found in Ephesians chapter 6 and abide in Christ.

How did Jesus handle Satan in the wilderness... with the word of God. All we have to do is study the word for ourselves and know the word it's the truth. Watch and pray.

We don't fall for the lie of Calvinism. It is obviously a lie because it portrays an unloving God.

 

[brightfame52]

Christians believe that Jesus died for everyone who has or ever will live; this is the doctrine of unlimited atonement. He died for individuals
He died for persons. Not just the elect. Jesus died for persons with names, faces, personalities, disabilities, histories, and sins. He did that because he loves each person. Jesus died for the whosoevers.

That's the key to the Gospel call is “whosoever.” Whosoever Shall Believe: It is by faith that we are saved, and whosoever shall believe will see salvation. “God so loved the world, that he gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

Sorry but thats a false jesus that died for everyone. Jesus of scripture died exclusively for His Sheep Jn 10 and they shall believe. Acts 28 28

Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

 

[dwight92070]

No deception. Repentance does lead to the forgiveness of sin (Acts 3:19), and without repentance there is no forgiveness of sin, but forgiveness of sin does not happen at repentance.

There is no mention of him being cleansed of sin at all. That is not a topic of discussion in the story, nor is it even addressed in Scripture. It is his reception of the blessing of being cleansed of leprosy that is the topic of Scripture and of my reference to his story.

Yes, I am sure that time did elapse while he journeyed from Elisha to Jordan and back. But that is irrelevant. He did not believe until he was actually cleansed. But the point is that if he had stopped at any point in the process before finishing the seventh dip, he would not have been cleansed.

You are right, if we truly believe, then we will be saved. But if you do not obey, then you don't truly believe. As James says, if your belief does not lead to obedience, then you don't really believe; your faith is dead.

The thief on the cross was still under the OT. He was not subject to the NT command of baptism, because Jesus had not yet died when He promised paradise to the thief.

Intellectual assent is the basic meaning of "belief" in modern English understanding. But it is not the meaning of "belief" in biblical understanding. "Belief" in Scripture almost always comes from the Greek "pistis" which means faith. And faith without action is not really faith.

That understanding forces many other passages to become false. But when we understand that those passages are speaking of water baptism, then all the passages of Scripture function together with no conflict. The Holy Spirit is the one doing the work of bringing us into Christ during water baptism as seen in Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-4, and is the effective agent seen in 1 Cor 12:13, Gal 3:27 during water baptism. This is also seen in Eph 5:25-27.

You cannot be born again before baptism, as Jesus says in John 3:5. We are born again of water and the Spirit (both). We do not baptize a "live old man" because the old man is dead. The "dead old man" goes into the water of baptism and the "living new man" comes out of the water.

You are correct, I do not accept your flawed interpretation of those passages, because none of the passages you cite indicate salvation being received before baptism. You think that just because one verse comes before another it occurs before the other in time. But that is not always so. Frequently we talk about the result and then say that it happened because of the cause. That is what Paul is doing in both Col 2 and Rom 6. He starts with the result (salvation), and then says that it happened during of the cause (baptism). Take off the blinders and read what Scripture says, not what you want it to say because of your preconception.

Just because a passage says something does not make that the only thing Scripture has to say about the topic. We must take every passage that says something about being saved, and compare them before we decide on our doctrine. And then, we must include everything that Scripture says "leads to" receiving salvation in our understanding of what it take to receive it. For instance: Acts 3:19 only says repentance is required to receive forgiveness of sin. But Acts 2:38 says both repentance and baptism are required. John 3:16 says only belief is required, but Rom 10:9-10 says that both belief and confession of Jesus as Lord are required. If we accept only John 3:16, and make that verse our "standard", then we make Rom 10 to be a lie, not to mention Acts 2 and 3. So we must include all of them, and accept that there are details that are not mentioned in some places that we have to go to other places in Scripture to find. This is why study and a thorough knowledge of Scripture is so important.

Yes, obviously the eunuch believed, but belief is not the point at which salvation is received, baptism is.

You are misinterpreting the passages that say we are not saved by works. Of course we are not saved by works, because there is nothing a sinful, fallen man can do to earn salvation from God. We cannot force Him to give us salvation. We cannot even deserve it. But we can surrender our will to His, obey what He said leads to receiving His blessing, and "throw ourselves at the mercy of His court" (as it were). We do this by doing what He said leads to receiving salvation: repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and being baptized (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38).

You would be correct if Acts 10:43 were the only passage in Scripture that talks about receiving salvation or forgiveness of sin. But it is not, so we must look to the other passages as well. We also must look at what Ananias told Saul in Acts 22:16. It is clear that Saul was still in sin three days after he believed, because he still had to wash off the sin as Ananias instructed him through the Spirit.

There it is, "through faith"! Yes, all of those phrases mean the same thing, and if you look at all of them, you will find that there are actions required by man to recieve many of them. And as noted above, all of those actions must be added together or we make some of those passages out to be a lie.

Not "perform a work for our salvation" as if we were attempting to earn it. But perform an obedience to our master for which we deserve no reward (Luke 17:7-10), but for which He has promised to give a gift.

The example is not about salvation. Salvation is not even hinted at in this story. Yes, she was a "wife of the sons of the prophets", but that does not in any way indicate her salvation. There were many of the nation of Israel who ended up not being saved in the OT. The focus is deliverance from debt and the redemption of her son.

Again, the example is not about salvation. Salvation is not even hinted at in this story. The focus is deliverance from leprosy that is the focus of the story and my reference to it.

Yes, believe (which means faith) first, and that causes obedience in baptism which results in salvation being received. It is baptism that is the point of reception of salvation, not belief.

The people in Matt 7:21-23 are not called disciples there. But that does not change the fact that these people were part of the Chruch, thought they were "in Christ", and were doing great works for Him. They were deceived followers of Christ, false disciples, but disciples non the less.

I did not accuse you of anything. My comment was not directed at you directly. If you feel that you fit the discription I gave, then that is for you to sort out. I was simply addressing how your position compares with Scripture. Your understanding of faith, as you have described it to me, points to an understanding that one can have a living faith that has no action or evidence of itself. But we know from James 2:14-26 that faith must be active to be alive. And we know from Eph 2:8-9 that a living, active faith must be present before the grace of salvation is received, because it is through faith that grace is received.

There is no Church that teaches the truth in the area where I live. I attend Bethleham Chruch (which is a "non-denominational denomination) because I have children that I want to get a good foundation in the Bible (we also study together at home), and to develop the habit of worshipping weekly with the Chruch.

You have only one elder? While that is a topic for another thread, that is not Biblical at all.

We would be in agreement about almost all of this.
I do not know what different people mean by "dispensationalism", so I cannot say how we stack up on that count.
If you mean that the Church is Israel (all who believe in Jesus, both Jew and Gentile) then yes, the New Covenant was given only to Israel. But if you mean that it was only given to the Jews, then with that I would disagree.
The rest of these statements I would agree with without reservation. It appears that our only real disagreement rests in our understanding of the point at which one goes from lost to saved, and possibly the fact that actions are required for faith to be real and alive. These are fundamental issues, and are very important to get right, but I believe that with open minded study you can come to a right understanding of them.
I pray for that day for you.

We've gone over this before, but the "faith without works is dead" of James is NOT referring to faith for salvation which requires NO works. He's referring to the normal Christian life AFTER salvation, which is the remainder of the Christian's life. It is at that time that our faith produces good works. Even the two examples James gives, Abraham and Rahab, were both saved BEFORE they performed the works that they did. Obviously Rahab the harlot had a lot of days to come to the realization that the Israelites were coming for war and that miracles from God accompanied them, so she was prepared to repent and turn to God. So when Joshua sent the spies into Jericho, she was quick to not only receive them, but to hide them. Thus her faith, which she already had for several days, maybe weeks, produced the good work of hiding the spies. Abraham was saved over 50 years before he offered up Isaac.
So every time you mention James and compare that to your false doctrine of the work of baptism being required before salvation occurs, you are misinterpreting James, to make it fit your false teaching.

Also, regarding the New Covenant foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34, it plainly says "... I will make a new covenant WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH." verse 31 So it was given ONLY to Israel, not to anyone else. However, since we are "in Christ", and we are Jews inwardly and we are grafted into the olive tree, which is the remnant of Israel, including both Jews and Gentiles, and we are the"Israel of God", therefore we have entered into the New Covenant right along with Jewish believers.

Regarding one pastor vs. multiple pastors or elders or overseers or shepherd(they are all the same thing), Paul told Timothy in 1 Timothy 3:4-5 "(An overseer) must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity, but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?

How many managers are there in each household? Just one, the husband/father. The husband is the head of the wife, Paul said, and here we see he is also head of the whole household. Likewise, there can be only ONE manager in the Church. If you have more than that, you have confusion, just as there would be with two fathers in the same household.
Yes, Jesus is the head of the body, but he has ordained pastors to be managers of each local church. Where do we see this in the Bible? Jesus told Peter in John 21:15-17 to "Tend My lambs - Shepherd My sheep - Tend My sheep". Who was Jesus referring to? Primarily the other 11 apostles. That was the first local church, aside from Jesus Himself and His 12 apostles, and Jesus made Peter their pastor. They, in turn, would make disciples and eventually shepherd their own flock and ordain new pastors. Did you notice that Jesus ONLY told Peter to "shepherd His sheep"? He didn't tell John or Matthew of Judas or James to shepherd His sheep. Jesus didn't seem to have any interest in a plurality of elders, as some claim today.
Someone has said, "Anything with two heads is a Monster." This is true. It's not natural or practical.
Some have said, "Won't the power go to his head?" Well, you could ask the same question about a father. "Won't the power go to his head?"
Yes, it could, if the man rejects God's word and His commands. OR he could actually be a good man, meeting the requirements of an overseer.

Many have misinterpreted Acts 14:23 "When they had appointed elders for them in every church, ..." It sounds like a plurality of elders for each local church, but in context Luke had just mentioned three cities in verse21, Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch. So they appointed elder(s) for every church, the church in Lystra, which undoubtedly included several local bodies, the church in Iconium (also had several local fellowships), and the church in Antioch (also comprised of several small groups, who met in homes)
They couldn't have had only one elder for the church in each city, because the church in each city was comprised of multiple small churches, usually meeting in homes, and each one required an elder.

 

[Cyrus]

Sorry but thats a false jesus that died for everyone. Jesus of scripture died exclusively for His Sheep Jn 10 and they shall believe. Acts 28 28

Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

It's not a false Jesus, It's what the Bible teaches.

so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life [after physical death, and will actually live forever]. John 3:15

And why does that happen?

“For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the world, that He [even] gave His [One and] only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16

 

[brightfame52]

It's not a false Jesus, It's what the Bible teaches.

so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life [after physical death, and will actually live forever]. John 3:15

And why does that happen?

“For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the world, that He [even] gave His [One and] only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16

Yes its a false jesus that died for everyone, and its a false jesus who died for people he didnt save.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"Works salvation" is a term that gets thown around a lot on forums as this one.

True!! Stupid humans think / want to believe, that they can EARN their salvation by their own effort. ISLAM is built around that foolishness, as are most PAGAN religious systems, including Roman Catholicism.

1) What is "works salvation"? How does one define "works salvation" according to the Bible?

Since there's NO SUCH THING, the Bible doesn't provide a definition. Eph 2:8,9 is how a person is saved.

"Works Salvation" refers to the FANTASY that a person can EARN his salvation my producing "Good works", or altruism proving that they were "WORTHY of salvation". However, since their BEST WORKS are nothing but garbage in God's sight it's all for nothing.

3) Was Noah's work in building the ark "to the saving of his house" (Heb 11:7) a "works salvation"?

No - the ark was an anti-type of Jesus and the salvation HE would provide by way of the SIN OFFERING he provided with His own Blood. Noah was an example of OBEDIENCE to the Lords commands, but like everybody else Noah was saved by HIS FAITH in God's provision of righteousness.

 

[brightfame52]

True!! Stupid humans think / want to believe, that they can EARN their salvation by their own effort. ISLAM is built around that foolishness, as are most PAGAN religious systems, including Roman Catholicism.

Since there's NO SUCH THING, the Bible doesn't provide a definition. Eph 2:8,9 is how a person is saved.

"Works Salvation" refers to the FANTASY that a person can EARN his salvation my producing "Good works", or altruism proving that they were "WORTHY of salvation". However, since their BEST WORKS are nothing but garbage in God's sight it's all for nothing.

No - the ark was an anti-type of Jesus and the salvation HE would provide by way of the SIN OFFERING he provided with His own Blood. Noah was an example of OBEDIENCE to the Lords commands, but like everybody else Noah was saved by HIS FAITH in God's provision of righteousness.

Works Salvation is to make something we do as a condition for God to save us, when Christ has actually done all needful to save His People from their sins.

 

[brightfame52]

Salvation from sin is not man’s act, but an act of Christ by his death, it is Christ’s work to save us. “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS; for he shall save his people from their sins. Mt.1:21 Samuel Richardson

 

[Cyrus]

Yes its a false jesus that died for everyone, and its a false jesus who died for people he didnt save.

A false Jesus who knew? So tell me more about your false Jesus. I see you don't capitalize His name. Does your false Jesus go by any other names? Like Lord and Savior. That's my Jesus, Do you know Him?

 

[brightfame52]

A false Jesus who knew? So tell me more about your false Jesus. I see you don't capitalize His name. Does your false Jesus go by any other names? Like Lord and Savior. That's my Jesus, Do you know Him?

its a false jesus that died for everyone, and its a false jesus who died for people he didnt save.

 

[Doug Brents]

We've gone over this before, but the "faith without works is dead" of James is NOT referring to faith for salvation which requires NO works.

There is not one faith for salvation and another faith for everything else. There is only one faith (Eph 4:5-6). And for faith to be effective, valuable, alive, meaningful, alive, it must include action. And as Eph 2:8-9 says, a living faith must come before salvation is received. This means that the faith we have before salvation is received must be active and obedient.

Also, regarding the New Covenant foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34, it plainly says "... I will make a new covenant WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH." verse 31 So it was given ONLY to Israel, not to anyone else. However, since we are "in Christ", and we are Jews inwardly and we are grafted into the olive tree, which is the remnant of Israel, including both Jews and Gentiles, and we are the"Israel of God", therefore we have entered into the New Covenant right along with Jewish believers.

The Gentiles who believe in Jesus are grafted into Israel, and the Jews who do not believe in Jesus are cut off from Israel. Thus, the Church is Israel.

Regarding one pastor vs. multiple pastors or elders or overseers or shepherd(they are all the same thing), Paul told Timothy in 1 Timothy 3:4-5 "(An overseer) must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity, but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?

How many managers are there in each household? Just one, the husband/father. The husband is the head of the wife, Paul said, and here we see he is also head of the whole household. Likewise, there can be only ONE manager in the Church. If you have more than that, you have confusion, just as there would be with two fathers in the same household.

I completely and totally disagree with your assertions on the Eldership, but this is not the thread for this discussion. Take it up somewhere else, and we can discuss it there.

 

[brightfame52]

Anytime we make something a condition, requirement, obligation that must be done by us, in order for God to save us, forgives us of our sins, Justify us before His Law and Justice, it constitutes Salvation by works, it repudiates the efficacious saving life and death of Christ, it rejects Salvation by Grace.

 

[brightfame52]

To qualify anything[ to be done by us] for salvation, is to bring in the principle of law or works; and he that seeks to be justified by the Law or works, is fallen from grace. Gal 5:4

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[brightfame52]

Its no difference, works or law, either way a principle of law has dominion over one. Whenever we set up a condition that must be performed by us for Justification, its law, we believe if I perform the condition I gain Salvation, but if I dont I will be punished. Thats the Law !

 

[Doug Brents]

Anytime we make something a condition, requirement, obligation that must be done by us, in order for God to save us, forgives us of our sins, Justify us before His Law and Justice, it constitutes Salvation by works, it repudiates the efficacious saving life and death of Christ, it rejects Salvation by Grace.

This statement is completely contrary to every example of God's grace found in the Old Testament. There is not a single example of someone being given something by God for which they were not required to take an action.

To qualify anything[ to be done by us] for salvation, is to bring in the principle of law or works; and he that seeks to be justified by the Law or works, is fallen from grace. Gal 5:4

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

That is a misunderstanding of that verse. The Law here is the Law of Moses (the Old Covenant), and not "any action whatsoever".

 

[brightfame52]

This statement is completely contrary to every example of God's grace found in the Old Testament. There is not a single example of someone being given something by God for which they were not required to take an action.

That is a misunderstanding of that verse. The Law here is the Law of Moses (the Old Covenant), and not "any action whatsoever".

Oh no, its dead on friend, you believe in works salvation with your requirements.