What deception! Jesus Himself said "that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations ..." Luke 24:47 So, according to what you just said, Jesus (Our Savior) was not proclaiming salvation because He proclaimed repentance.
No deception. Repentance does lead to the forgiveness of sin (Acts 3:19), and without repentance there is no forgiveness of sin, but forgiveness of sin does not happen at repentance.
Repentance and faith in God brings salvation. By Naaman changing his mind and heart and turning around and BELIEVING in Elisha's instruction, at least enough to do what he said, shows both repentance and faith. Nobody's doubting when he was cleansed of leprosy but you are doubting when he was cleansed of his sin.
There is no mention of him being cleansed of sin at all. That is not a topic of discussion in the story, nor is it even addressed in Scripture. It is his reception of the blessing of being cleansed of leprosy that is the topic of Scripture and of my reference to his story.
2 Kings 5:15
This does NOT prove your statement that "he still did not believe it would work until it did." A lot of time could have elapsed between his decision to turn around, go to the Jordan and dip seven times, then take another trip to wherever Elisha was, where he declared to Elisha, "Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel" even though he first believed it when he turned around. We don't know, it could have been two days journey or more, but just because time had elapsed, he could still say, "Now I know ..." So there's NO scripture that backs up your statement.
Yes, I am sure that time did elapse while he journeyed from Elisha to Jordan and back. But that is irrelevant. He did not believe until he was actually cleansed. But the point is that if he had stopped at any point in the process before finishing the seventh dip, he would not have been cleansed.
Dwight - We don't get saved by performing ANY work. "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, ..." Acts 16:31 If someone truly believes in Jesus, He will be saved.
You are right, if we truly believe, then we will be saved. But if you do not obey, then you don't truly believe. As James says, if your belief does not lead to obedience, then you don't really believe; your faith is dead.
The thief on the cross simply believed in Jesus. Like the Roman soldier, the thief saw how Jesus died, with forgiveness for His murderers, calling on His Father to forgive them, no anger toward anyone. The thief was instantly saved when Jesus told him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in paradise."
The thief on the cross was still under the OT. He was not subject to the NT command of baptism, because Jesus had not yet died when He promised paradise to the thief.
Dwight - For salvation, IT IS. Intellectual assent is NOT a Biblical term. It's a perjorative used against people who you disagree with.
Intellectual assent is the basic meaning of "belief" in modern English understanding. But it is not the meaning of "belief" in biblical understanding. "Belief" in Scripture almost always comes from the Greek "pistis" which means faith. And faith without action is not really faith.
False, the ONE baptism in Ephesians 4:5 is the baptism of highest importance, which is the one that brings salvation. It is mentioned in 1 Cor. 12:13, Gal. 3:27 and Romans 6:3. This is the Holy Spirit baptizing us into the body of Christ or we could say, into Christ. and making us drink of one Spirit.
That understanding forces many other passages to become false. But when we understand that those passages are speaking of water baptism, then all the passages of Scripture function together with no conflict. The Holy Spirit is the one doing the work of bringing us into Christ during water baptism as seen in Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-4, and is the effective agent seen in 1 Cor 12:13, Gal 3:27 during water baptism. This is also seen in Eph 5:25-27.
No, you are wrong again, Gal.3:26 does not need to say faith AND BAPTISM, because water baptism is not required to become a son of God. Our sins were NOT washed away at water baptism, they were washed away when we were born again BEFORE baptism. We don't baptize a LIVE OLD MAN (Ephesians 4:22). The old man must be dead through the circumcision of Christ, which is salvation. Then baptism is a picture, Peter calls it a figure, of the old man being buried and the new man raised up.
You cannot be born again before baptism, as Jesus says in John 3:5. We are born again of water and the Spirit (both). We do not baptize a "live old man" because the old man is dead. The "dead old man" goes into the water of baptism and the "living new man" comes out of the water.
Obviously you didn't accept my interpretation of both of those verses in post # 1072 at the bottom. Too bad, because that's what they mean. Nor did you care to acknowledge my list of 7 or more verses that ALL indicate salvation BEFORE baptism. In fact, you can add Col.2 and Rom. 6 to that list. In my post #1074, I clearly explain how they ALSO show that salvation occurs BEFORE baptism.
You are correct, I do not accept your flawed interpretation of those passages, because none of the passages you cite indicate salvation being received before baptism. You think that just because one verse comes before another it occurs before the other in time. But that is not always so. Frequently we talk about the result and then say that it happened because of the cause. That is what Paul is doing in both Col 2 and Rom 6. He starts with the result (salvation), and then says that it happened during of the cause (baptism). Take off the blinders and read what Scripture says, not what you want it to say because of your preconception.
You are wrong again. You say "believing does not include forgiveness of sins". But Peter said, " ... everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." Acts 10:43 So you can scratch that from your list of false doctrines.
You also contradict Paul's statement and what happened with Philip and the eunuch. Paul said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." You don't get saved without getting your sins forgiven. Luke 24:47 Jesus said, "that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem." So according to your last statement, Jesus was not preaching "believing", because according to you, that would NOT include forgiveness of sins - and Jesus WAS proclaiming forgiveness of sins. Acts 10:43
Just because a passage says something does not make that the only thing Scripture has to say about the topic. We must take every passage that says something about being saved, and compare them before we decide on our doctrine. And then, we must include everything that Scripture says "leads to" receiving salvation in our understanding of what it take to receive it. For instance: Acts 3:19 only says repentance is required to receive forgiveness of sin. But Acts 2:38 says both repentance and baptism are required. John 3:16 says only belief is required, but Rom 10:9-10 says that both belief and confession of Jesus as Lord are required. If we accept only John 3:16, and make that verse our "standard", then we make Rom 10 to be a lie, not to mention Acts 2 and 3. So we must include all of them, and accept that there are details that are not mentioned in some places that we have to go to other places in Scripture to find. This is why study and a thorough knowledge of Scripture is so important.
Philip told the eunuch, "If you believe with all your heart, you may (be baptized)" Obviously the eunuch BELIEVED and therefore we KNOW he already ALREADY RECEIVED FORGIVENESS OF SINS. (Acts 10:43) BEFORE HE WAS BAPTIZED.
Yes, obviously the eunuch believed, but belief is not the point at which salvation is received, baptism is.
It can't be referring to that, otherwise all the scriptures that say we are NOT saved by works, would be invalid.
You are misinterpreting the passages that say we are not saved by works. Of course we are not saved by works, because there is nothing a sinful, fallen man can do to earn salvation from God. We cannot force Him to give us salvation. We cannot even deserve it. But we can surrender our will to His, obey what He said leads to receiving His blessing, and "throw ourselves at the mercy of His court" (as it were). We do this by doing what He said leads to receiving salvation: repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and being baptized (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38).
Wrong again. " ...everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." Acts 10:43 So you acknowledge that Saul believed on the same day that Jesus "appeared" to him. So if he believed in Jesus, then He ALSO RECEIVED forgiveness of sins at that same time, on the road to Damascus, NOT later when he was baptized.
You would be correct if Acts 10:43 were the only passage in Scripture that talks about receiving salvation or forgiveness of sin. But it is not, so we must look to the other passages as well. We also must look at what Ananias told Saul in Acts 22:16. It is clear that Saul was still in sin three days after he believed, because he still had to wash off the sin as Ananias instructed him through the Spirit.
No, you do. Repentance, faith, believing in Jesus, forgiveness of sins, being born again or the new birth, salvation, the circumcision of Christ, being "baptized" into the body of Christ, receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit, being saved, becoming a new man, united with Christ, a new creation, becoming a Jew inwardly, a son of Abraham, being grafted into the olive tree, which is the remnant of Israel, which means we are in and under the New Covenant, heirs of God and fellow heirs of Christ, sons of God, children of God, becoming part of the Israel of God, entering into the Kingdom of God, which is the Kingdom of Jesus, becoming a disciple, a believer, a Christian, a follower of Jesus, Christ's servant and slave, crucified with Him, buried with Him, raised with Him, seated with Him in the heavenly realm, reigning with Him, adopted children of God. All of these occur in a single moment in time. NO work is performed to receive all of these. Only God's grace through faith in Jesus.
There it is, "through faith"! Yes, all of those phrases mean the same thing, and if you look at all of them, you will find that there are actions required by man to recieve many of them. And as noted above, all of those actions must be added together or we make some of those passages out to be a lie.
Wrong, that would mean we must perform a work for our salvation. when Jesus ALONE IS OUR SALVATION.
Not "perform a work for our salvation" as if we were attempting to earn it. But perform an obedience to our master for which we deserve no reward (Luke 17:7-10), but for which He has promised to give a gift.
The widow already believed and was saved. Then, after that, her faith directed her to obey. Salvation first - later obey in baptism
The example is not about salvation. Salvation is not even hinted at in this story. Yes, she was a "wife of the sons of the prophets", but that does not in any way indicate her salvation. There were many of the nation of Israel who ended up not being saved in the OT. The focus is deliverance from debt and the redemption of her son.
Naaman already believed Elisha (or God). Then, after that, his faith directed him to obey. Salvation first - later obey in baptism.
Again, the example is not about salvation. Salvation is not even hinted at in this story. The focus is deliverance from leprosy that is the focus of the story and my reference to it.
This verse ALSO gives us the right order Believe first, later baptism.
Yes, believe (which means faith) first, and that causes obedience in baptism which results in salvation being received. It is baptism that is the point of reception of salvation, not belief.
NOT true. Jesus would never have commanded for His apostles to "make disciples of all nations" if that did not mean they were saved. Biblically a disciple is a born again believer, not simply a "learner" who may or may not be saved. The people mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23 are NOT called disciples. For you to suggest that is incorrect and misinterpreting the Bible.
The people in Matt 7:21-23 are not called disciples there. But that does not change the fact that these people were part of the Chruch, thought they were "in Christ", and were doing great works for Him. They were deceived followers of Christ, false disciples, but disciples non the less.
There you go accusing me again of having an inactive, passive, mental only faith - that's an untrue perjorative. You don't know me so you couldn't possibly know what my faith is or isn't.
I did not accuse you of anything. My comment was not directed at you directly. If you feel that you fit the discription I gave, then that is for you to sort out. I was simply addressing how your position compares with Scripture. Your understanding of faith, as you have described it to me, points to an understanding that one can have a living faith that has no action or evidence of itself. But we know from James 2:14-26 that faith must be active to be alive. And we know from Eph 2:8-9 that a living, active faith must be present before the grace of salvation is received, because it is through faith that grace is received.
What church do you go to? And what do they believe?
There is no Church that teaches the truth in the area where I live. I attend Bethleham Chruch (which is a "non-denominational denomination) because I have children that I want to get a good foundation in the Bible (we also study together at home), and to develop the habit of worshipping weekly with the Chruch.
I go to a homechurch, which is not associated with any denomination. We have a single pastor (not more than one) who believes pretty much the same as I do - we don't agree on all issues - but we agree on the essentials.
You have only one elder? While that is a topic for another thread, that is not Biblical at all.
We believe Calvinism and Dispensationalism are false. We believe in the Trinity and that the gifts of the Spirit are for the church today. We believe that we are not under the law today, including the Sabbath. We believe that we are under or in the New Covenant, since we are part of the Israel of God. "He is not a Jew outwardly, but he is a Jew inwardly." (and the New Covenant was given only to Israel.)
We believe that any church or group that claims that they are the only ones who are going to heaven or are saved, is a cult. My wife and 4 children started going to homechurch in 2001, and now they have all grown. and go elsewhere.
We would be in agreement about almost all of this.
I do not know what different people mean by "dispensationalism", so I cannot say how we stack up on that count.
If you mean that the Church is Israel (all who believe in Jesus, both Jew and Gentile) then yes, the New Covenant was given only to Israel. But if you mean that it was only given to the Jews, then with that I would disagree.
The rest of these statements I would agree with without reservation. It appears that our only real disagreement rests in our understanding of the point at which one goes from lost to saved, and possibly the fact that actions are required for faith to be real and alive. These are fundamental issues, and are very important to get right, but I believe that with open minded study you can come to a right understanding of them.
I pray for that day for you.
They should change it from the Reformation to the Reformalization Plus a whole lot of made up interpretation of words.
