"Works Salvation"

[brightfame52]

Answer the questions in post 1049. And quit repeating the same nonsense over and over. It does not make a falsehood true to repeat it.

If you condition salvation on any requirement you must perform, thats a principle of law you are operating under.

 

[Doug Brents]

If you condition salvation on any requirement you must perform, thats a principle of law you are operating under.

Again you repeat nonsense with no Biblical backup. Answer the questions in post 1049.

 

[brightfame52]

Again you repeat nonsense with no Biblical backup. Answer the questions in post 1049.

If you condition salvation on any requirement you must perform, thats a principle of law you are operating under.

 

[Doug Brents]

If you condition salvation on any requirement you must perform, thats a principle of law you are operating under.

Having a conversation with you is similar to talking to a rock. The only difference is, the rock makes more sense. When you have something that is Biblical to say, we can try again.

 

[brightfame52]

Having a conversation with you is similar to talking to a rock. The only difference is, the rock makes more sense. When you have something that is Biblical to say, we can try again.

Okay but:

If you condition salvation on any requirement you must perform, thats a principle of law you are operating under.

 

[mailmandan]

 

[brightfame52]

Funny, yet these are solemn matters

 

[civic]

Funny, yet these are solemn matters

then defend your position with scripture not your assertions and opinions.

 

[mailmandan]

When someone’s mind is firmly set, it can be as unyielding as a stone wall. All the dazzling and baffling speeches in the world will not change their mind. All believers can do is plant seeds in hopes that one day those seeds will be watered, and God will give the increase. Apart from God, don't expect results to follow.

1 Corinthians 3:6 - I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

 

[dwight92070]

Was it grace that allowed the widow to pour oil into every jar she could gather (2 Kings 4)? Yet, if she had not gathered the jars and poured the oil, would she have received anything?
Was it grace that cured Naaman from leprosy? Yet, if he had not dipped in Jordan would he have been healed?
Was it grace that knocked down the walls of Jericho? Yet, if the Israelites had not marched around the city and yelled as commanded the walls would not have fallen.
etc. etc..

If there is no action, then there is no reception of grace.

Doug, I know I said I was done discussing this, but I couldn't resist these "softball" questions.
You can't seem to get it into your head that there's a difference between the moment when we were saved, and our ongoing Christian life of obedience.
When we were instantly and supernaturally saved, our faith was not accompanied by ANY good works. However, after we were born again, our ongoing Christian faith produces good works - the first one of those good works should ideally be water baptism, but life is not ideal and many were not baptized until some time after their new birth.

The widow was ALREADY SAVED by faith alone before she went to Elisha for help. 2 Kings 4:1 She told Elisha that she "feared the Lord". So she obeyed the Lord by obeying Elisha in pouring in the oil into the many jars. This was part of her ongoing walk of faith that produced good works.
Naaman was saved by faith alone at the exact moment that he repented and decided to obey Elisha.
The Israelites at Jericho were already saved by faith alone before they even went to Jericho.

 

[Doug Brents]

None of these examples are about salvation from sin. They are about the examples given in Scripture of how God's blessing comes to people.

The widow was ALREADY SAVED by faith alone before she went to Elisha for help. 2 Kings 4:1 She told Elisha that she "feared the Lord". So she obeyed the Lord by obeying Elisha in pouring in the oil into the many jars. This was part of her ongoing walk of faith that produced good works.

She was about to sell her son into slavery in order to receive enough money to pay her late husband's debts. She was saved from that by obedience to the prophet's order. Her salvation (from the circumstance she was in) was made complete by her obedience. No, she was not already saved (from her circumstance) before her obedience. Her obedience led to her receiving enough oil to pay her debts.

Naaman was saved by faith alone at the exact moment that he repented and decided to obey Elisha.

Naaman was still a leper up until he dipped the seventh time. Even after six dips he was still a leper, and if he had come out of the water at that point, he would have died a leper. He was not saved from his circumstance until he had obeyed completely.

The Israelites at Jericho were already saved by faith alone before they even went to Jericho.

The Israelites had not yet taken possession of the Land. Jericho was the first city they were to take possession of, and they were given very strict and explicit instructions on how it was to be taken. They obeyed, and the walls fell. But, as happened with AI, they would not have taken the city if they had not obeyed.

The blessings of God are received through obedience to His commands. Salvation is just one of the blessings He has promised to us today. Water baptism does not follow after one is saved; it is the point at which our sins are cut from us and we are united with Christ in His resurrection. If one does not die to sin, then one cannot be resurrected from the death that sin causes. And we die to sin during water baptism as Paul says in Rom 6:1-4, and reiterates in Col 2:11-14.

 

[dwight92070]

None of these examples are about salvation from sin. They are about the examples given in Scripture of how God's blessing comes to people.

Dwight - Wrong, it appears Naaman did receive salvation from sin here. 2 Kings 15-19 show us that he was a changed man, right at the point when he repented of his anger and arrogance, humbled himself and decided to obey Elisha. He was saved even before he returned to the Jordan river to obey Elisha. That is, there were no works involved in his salvation, except the miraculous work of God in his heart, when he repented and humbled himself and believed that there was "assurance of things hoped for" (Hebrews 11:1) HE HAD FAITH!
THEN and ONLY THEN, after He was instantly saved, did he obey and wash 7 times in the Jordan. These washings in the Jordan did not save him, he was already saved. Water baptism does not save a person. They must be saved BEFORE they become baptized in water.

Dwight - I never said that all of these examples were about salvation from sin, even though the Naaman story was. He was saved by faith BEFORE he obeyed Elisha, which was basically obeying God. In the other two stories, one about the widow, and the other about the Israelites getting ready to conquer Jericho, I simply pointed out that the widow and the Israelites already were saved from their sin BEFORE they obeyed Elisha and Joshua, respectively, which again was like obeying God. So again, these are three illustrations that salvation (without works) precedes obedience (with works). Salvation from sin without works precedes the obedience of water baptism (a work).

The blessings of God are received through obedience to His commands. Salvation is just one of the blessings He has promised to us today.

Dwight - Excuse me??? Salvation is JUST ONE OF THE BLESSINGS HE HAS PROMISED US????? That's like saying Jesus is just one of the blessings He has promised us, as if He is no greater than any other blessing. You are diminishing our Lord and Savior, BECAUSE JESUS IS OUR SALVATION!! The truth is salvation - JESUS - is the DOOR into receiving any and all promises from Him. Jesus said, "I am the DOOR; if anyone enters through Me, he will be SAVED." John 10:9 And Jesus is NOT received by getting baptized, or any other work. He is received by grace through faith. a miraculous work of God in our hearts.

Water baptism does not follow after one is saved;

Dwight - Not true. The Bible is clear that if a person is not ALREADY saved, then he should NOT be baptized.

(Baptism) is the point at which our sins are cut from us and we are united with Christ in His resurrection

Dwight - Wrong again, Biblically, if we don't ALREADY have our sins forgiven, then we have no business getting baptized.

And we die to sin during water baptism as Paul says in Rom 6:1-4, and reiterates in Col 2:11-14.

Dwight - Incorrect. Romans 6:2 -3 " ... How shall we who died to sin still live in it? (Dying to sin happens when we're saved.) Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ have been baptized into His death. "This baptism that Paul speaks of here is NOT water baptism. This is the same baptism that he refers to in 1 Corinthians 12:13 and Galatians 3:27, i.e. where the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ. Paul is speaking of our salvation here.

Dwight -THEN verse 4 FOLLOWS our salvation with water baptism: "THEREFORE (i.e. because we have died to sin or have been saved) we have been BURIED with Him through (water) baptism into death, ..."

Dwight -We also know this is true, because water baptism is not a picture of us dying to sin. It is a picture of us BEING BURIED AFTER WE HAVE ALREADY DIED. Death (to sin) occurs at the time of our salvation. Burial of the old man, now dead, is pictured in water baptism.

Dwight - This is another example of Salvation occurring before water baptism.

Dwight - Likewise Colossians 2:11 "and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;" Again, this speaks of our NEW BIRTH. THEN verse 12 refers to water baptism, AFTER it speaks of our being born again and our sins being "cut off". So once again, the Bible speaks of SALVATION BEFORE BAPTISM, not during baptism.

 

[Doug Brents]

Wrong, it appears Naaman did receive salvation from sin here. 2 Kings 15-19 show us that he was a changed man, right at the point when he repented of his anger and arrogance, humbled himself and decided to obey Elisha. He was saved even before he returned to the Jordan river to obey Elisha. That is, there were no works involved in his salvation, except the miraculous work of God in his heart, when he repented and humbled himself and believed that there was "assurance of things hoped for" (Hebrews 11:1) HE HAD FAITH!
THEN and ONLY THEN, after He was instantly saved, did he obey and wash 7 times in the Jordan. These washings in the Jordan did not save him, he was already saved. Water baptism does not save a person. They must be saved BEFORE they become baptized in water.

2 Kings 5:15-19 comes after he was cured of leprosy. His demeanor did not change until he had been cured. He was convinced by his servant to obey, but he still did not believe it would work until it did. Then he knew that there was a God in Israel and no where else. Verse 15, "Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, except in Israel". He was not saved from leprosy until he obeyed. That is when he received the blessing promised if he obeyed the commandment.

I never said that all of these examples were about salvation from sin, even though the Naaman story was. He was saved by faith BEFORE he obeyed Elisha, which was basically obeying God. In the other two stories, one about the widow, and the other about the Israelites getting ready to conquer Jericho, I simply pointed out that the widow and the Israelites already were saved from their sin BEFORE they obeyed Elisha and Joshua, respectively, which again was like obeying God. So again, these are three illustrations that salvation (without works) precedes obedience (with works). Salvation from sin without works precedes the obedience of water baptism (a work).

None of the examples are about salvation from sin. That is not the point. Yes, the Israelites were in a relationship with God, but not all of them were saved from their sin, because many of them sinned and were immediately killed for that sin (eternally damned, as were Ananias and Sapphira). The examples are about receiving the promised blessing from God. God has promised many blessings to different people through the ages, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM comes through obedience to the commands He gives for the reception of that blessing.

Dwight - Excuse me??? Salvation is JUST ONE OF THE BLESSINGS HE HAS PROMISED US????? That's like saying Jesus is just one of the blessings He has promised us, as if He is no greater than any other blessing. You are diminishing our Lord and Savior, BECAUSE JESUS IS OUR SALVATION!! The truth is salvation - JESUS - is the DOOR into receiving any and all promises from Him. Jesus said, "I am the DOOR; if anyone enters through Me, he will be SAVED." John 10:9 And Jesus is NOT received by getting baptized, or any other work. He is received by grace through faith. a miraculous work of God in our hearts.

I am not dismissing Jesus in any way. Yes, He is the door into relationship with God. But what does it say? "For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." (Gal 3:26-27) If you have not been baptized (in water (Matt 28:19, 1 Pet 3:21)) into Christ, then you have not been clothed with Christ. And if you are not clothed with Christ, then you have not died to sin or been united to Jesus' resurrection.

Not true. The Bible is clear that if a person is not ALREADY saved, then he should NOT be baptized.
Wrong again, Biblically, if we don't ALREADY have our sins forgiven, then we have no business getting baptized.

Show me the passage that says this, please. I am not able to find it.

Dwight - Incorrect. Romans 6:2 -3 " ... How shall we who died to sin still live in it? (Dying to sin happens when we're saved.)

Yes it does. And as you continue to read the passage it says that it is during baptism that this happens.

Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ have been baptized into His death. "This baptism that Paul speaks of here is NOT water baptism. This is the same baptism that he refers to in 1 Corinthians 12:13 and Galatians 3:27, i.e. where the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ. Paul is speaking of our salvation here.

Absolutely Paul is speaking of our salvation here, which occurs during our baptism in water (as is said explicitly in 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, and in Matt 28:19 linked with Mark 16:16, and is exemplified in the eunuch's baptism in Acts 8:36. It is water baptism during which the Holy Spirit (Col 2:11-14) does the cutting of our sins from us (we die to sin), and He unites us to Jesus' resurrection.

THEN verse 4 FOLLOWS our salvation with water baptism: "THEREFORE (i.e. because we have died to sin or have been saved) we have been BURIED with Him through (water) baptism into death, ..."

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life." Rom 6:1-4
Where does Paul say that because we have died to sin, we have been baptized? It says that we have been buried with Christ THROUGH BAPTISM INTO DEATH. If we have not been baptized in water, then we have not died to sin.

We also know this is true, because water baptism is not a picture of us dying to sin. It is a picture of us BEING BURIED AFTER WE HAVE ALREADY DIED. Death (to sin) occurs at the time of our salvation. Burial of the old man, now dead, is pictured in water baptism.

The old, dead man goes into baptism, because that is where we die to sin. And the new man is raised out of the water.

Likewise Colossians 2:11 "and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;" Again, this speaks of our NEW BIRTH. THEN verse 12 refers to water baptism, AFTER it speaks of our being born again and our sins being "cut off". So once again, the Bible speaks of SALVATION BEFORE BAPTISM, not during baptism.

Sure the passage speaks of baptism after it mentions having our sins being cut from us. But what does it says about the timing???? It says that in baptism we are circumcised by the Holy Spirit, and also raised with Christ.
"and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings, 14 having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."
We die to sin, have our sins cut from us, are resurrected with Jesus, and united to Him during water baptism, not before.

 

[dwight92070]

Naaman humbled himself by abandoning his arrogance, anger and rage and and being willing to do what Elisha said. He was on his way to his home (verse 11), so he had to turn around and go back. If that's not evidence of a change of heart, then I don't know what is. Also this is more than just changing his mine - it's a heart change. This change of heart preceded his return back to the Jordan river, just as salvation today precedes water baptism. If his heart had not changed, he would never have returned.

In fact, this story is an excellent picture of the order of salvation and baptism today.

You said "he still did not believe it would work until it did." Really? Show me the scripture that says that?

You are mistaken, the lesson of Naaman is not only confined to his healing, but also to his renewed heart. You say it happened after he was healed. I say it happened when he decided to turn around. In fact, turning around is a good definition of repentance. I don't suppose either of us can prove our side, but at least I believe I have evidence. I don't see any evidence on your position.

Sure, all of God's promises come with a condition, sometimes some physical action. but the promise of salvation requires ONLY FAITH - no physical action is required for the reception of salvation. Obedience to do good works come after salvation.

As I already stated, Galatians 3:27 is referring to salvation, being baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christ (or into the body of Christ 1 Corinthians 12:13), NOT water baptism. Verse 26 is saying the same thing: "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." (Notice it DOES NOT say "And baptism")

Show you the passage that says people must be saved, at which time forgiveness of sins takes place, BEFORE they can be baptized??

You've been looking at them, but misinterpreting them ever since we started debating. You yourself have quoted them.

The Ethiopian eunuch was required by Philip to "believe with all your heart" BEFORE he would baptized him. (Believing includes forgiveness of sins.)
Peter required the crowd on the day of Pentecost to repent (which includes forgiveness of sins and salvation) and AFTER that get baptized.
Paul on the road to Damascus was blinded by a bright light by Jesus. He asked Jesus, "What shall I do Lord?", showing that he immediately repented and believed that Jesus was the Lord. His baptism happened 3 days AFTER he was saved.
The Philippian jailer asked Paul, "What must I do to be saved?" Paul's answer was not "Get baptized". No, he said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." AFTER that they preached the gospel to them. After that, they believed. After that they were baptized.
Philip preached to the Samaritans. "But when they believed Philip preaching the good news, they were being baptized. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, ..." Belief, salvation, forgiveness of sins, preceded baptism.
"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." What comes first, believing, which is salvation, or baptism? Jesus did not say, he who has been baptized and was born again during baptism shall be saved.
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptized them in the name ..." What comes first, making disciples or baptism? Jesus did not say, he who is baptized and becomes a disciple (a believer) shall be saved.

Are you really so indoctrinated that you cannot see the obvious truth that salvation/forgiveness of sins/new birth always must occur BEFORE water baptism?

There's so much more that refutes your false teaching, but I've got a life to live, so I must stop for now.

 

[Doug Brents]

Naaman humbled himself by abandoning his arrogance, anger and rage and and being willing to do what Elisha said. He was on his way to his home (verse 11), so he had to turn around and go back. If that's not evidence of a change of heart, then I don't know what is. Also this is more than just changing his mine - it's a heart change. This change of heart preceded his return back to the Jordan river, just as salvation today precedes water baptism. If his heart had not changed, he would never have returned.

Salvation is not found in repentance. One can repent all day long, and still remain unwashed and condemned. Naaman was not cleansed when he turned. He was not cleansed when he entered Jordan. He was not cleansed when he dipped the first or the sixth time. He was cleansed when he dipped the seventh time; when he had completed the instruction he had received.

You said "he still did not believe it would work until it did." Really? Show me the scripture that says that?

2 Kings 5:15 "Then he returned to the man of God with all his company, and came and stood before him. And he said, “Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, except in Israel"

You are mistaken, the lesson of Naaman is not only confined to his healing, but also to his renewed heart. You say it happened after he was healed. I say it happened when he decided to turn around. In fact, turning around is a good definition of repentance. I don't suppose either of us can prove our side, but at least I believe I have evidence. I don't see any evidence on your position.

I see what you are saying about his change of heart, and I agree with you, but as I said above, salvation is not found in repentance (although repentance leads to salvation). Salvation is found in our surrender of our will to God's will, and complete obedience to His commands. He has listed three actions that man must take to receive His salvation. You don't see the evidence in the story of Naaman because you are so set on your preconception that you are blinded to the truth.

Sure, all of God's promises come with a condition, sometimes some physical action. but the promise of salvation requires ONLY FAITH - no physical action is required for the reception of salvation. Obedience to do good works come after salvation.

Faith without action is not faith. If you only give intellectual assent then you are no better than the demons.

As I already stated, Galatians 3:27 is referring to salvation, being baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christ (or into the body of Christ 1 Corinthians 12:13), NOT water baptism. Verse 26 is saying the same thing: "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." (Notice it DOES NOT say "And baptism")

Water baptism, as I have shown many times, is the ONE baptism in the NT Church. Baptism that saves is an action that man must take (Matt 28:19, Acts 2:38). Baptism that saves requires water (1 Pet 3:21). Baptism that saves includes the actions of the Holy Spirit (Col 2:11-14). Baptism that saves is the point at which one dies to sin and is raised to new life in Christ (Rom 6:1-4).
Gal 3:26 does not need to say faith and baptism, because baptism is an act of faith that these people already understood (as can we through study of other passages of Scripture). We are baptized in water into Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit enters our heart, cuts our sin from us, and makes us alive in Christ DURING water baptism.

Show you the passage that says people must be saved, at which time forgiveness of sins takes place, BEFORE they can be baptized??
You've been looking at them, but misinterpreting them ever since we started debating. You yourself have quoted them.

No passage of Scripture says that we are saved before we are baptized. Col 2 and Rom 6 both say that it is "in baptism" that we die to sin, our sins are cut from us, and we are united to Jesus' death and resurrection. "In baptism", not before.

The Ethiopian eunuch was required by Philip to "believe with all your heart" BEFORE he would baptized him. (Believing includes forgiveness of sins.)

No, believing does not include forgiveness of sins. Yes, he had to believe before he was baptized (else his baptism would have only gotten him wet with no salvation occurring). But his salvation occurred during his baptism as Phillip must have taught him when he was explaining Jesus to him.

Peter required the crowd on the day of Pentecost to repent (which includes forgiveness of sins and salvation) and AFTER that get baptized.

Repentance leads to salvation, but it is not the point at which salvation occurs (Rom 6, Col 2). Peter said, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins...". "for" means in order to receive. And "for the forgiveness of your sins" refers back to both "repent" and "be baptized". If it only refers to one of them, then it refers back to the most recent which is "be baptized".

Paul on the road to Damascus was blinded by a bright light by Jesus. He asked Jesus, "What shall I do Lord?", showing that he immediately repented and believed that Jesus was the Lord. His baptism happened 3 days AFTER he was saved.

And three days after he believed he was still sitting there in sin. Ananias told him, "Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins by calling on His name."

The Philippian jailer asked Paul, "What must I do to be saved?" Paul's answer was not "Get baptized". No, he said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." AFTER that they preached the gospel to them. After that, they believed. After that they were baptized.

"Believed" comes from the Greek "pistis" which is faith. It is not intellectual assent, but the active, living faith described in James 2.

Philip preached to the Samaritans. "But when they believed Philip preaching the good news, they were being baptized. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, ..." Belief, salvation, forgiveness of sins, preceded baptism.

You put it out of order. 1) Belief, 2a) repentance, 2b) confession of Jesus as Lord, 3) baptism which brings about forgiveness of sins and salvation.

"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." What comes first, believing, which is salvation, or baptism? Jesus did not say, he who has been baptized and was born again during baptism shall be saved.

"Believes and is baptized", both must be accomplished for the result to occur.
As with the widow, gather bottles and pour the oil. If she just gathered the bottles but never poured the oil, there would not have been a miracle.
As with Naaman, dip in Jordan seven times. If he had dipped six times and given up, he would not have been cleansed.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptized them in the name ..." What comes first, making disciples or baptism? Jesus did not say, he who is baptized and becomes a disciple (a believer) shall be saved.

This is the same event as Mark 16:16 told from a different perspective. Make disciples comes first because a disciple is a follower, a learner. A person can be a follower all their life and still not be saved (as evidenced by Jesus statement that "I never knew you" in Matt 7:21-23). But a person is saved, and moves from just a follower to being adopted when one is baptized into Christ.

Are you really so indoctrinated that you cannot see the obvious truth that salvation/forgiveness of sins/new birth always must occur BEFORE water baptism?

Indoctrinated? No. But I can read the Scriptures, and am lead by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to understand His Word. I also understand your position and why you believe what you do. But you have a fundamental problem in understanding that faith is not an inactive, passive, mental only thing. Faith requires and encompasses the actions that Jesus said "lead to" receiving salvation. Without taking those actions that lead to salvation, salvation is not received.

 

[brightfame52]

@Doug Brents

Salvation is not found in repentance. One can repent all day long, and still remain unwashed and condemned. Naaman was not cleansed when he turned. He was not cleansed when he entered Jordan. He was not cleansed when he dipped the first or the sixth time. He was cleansed when he dipped the seventh time; when he had completed the instruction he had received.

Yet the elect for whom Christ died, were washed and cleaned by His Blood, before they believed, and while they were ungodly Rev 1:5

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
If you or i are someone Christ died for, He washed us from our sins before we were born, when He shed His Blood for us,
In fact after He died, and rose again, and set down at the Right Hand of Majesty, He had , if He died for us, purified us or purged our sins away, it was finished Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

No obedience was necessary from the washed !

 

[civic]

After they believed and repented of their sins. No confessing sins, no forgiveness- 1 John 1:9. Jesus taught the same thing. Go get right with your brother before praying to God. He will not hear your prayers. They will fall of deaf ears.

John says those who deny this are liars. 1 John 1:8-10- they are without the truth and liars.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Doug Brents]

Yet the elect for whom Christ died, were washed and cleaned by His Blood, before they believed, and while they were ungodly Rev 1:5

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
If you or i are someone Christ died for, He washed us from our sins before we were born, when He shed His Blood for us,
In fact after He died, and rose again, and set down at the Right Hand of Majesty, He had , if He died for us, purified us or purged our sins away, it was finished Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

No obedience was necessary from the washed !

You are taking this passage, because it seems to say what you want it to say, and not comparing it to the rest of Scripture. How and when does God says we are washed of our sins?
Acts 3:19 - we are washed of our sins after we repent of our sins.
Acts 2:38 - we are washed of our sins after we repent and are baptized.
Rom 10:9-10 - we are washed of our sins when we believe and confess Jesus as Lord.
And there are many other passages that point to these same conditions. Jesus offers salvation to us based on our accepting His salvation. Our sins are not washed away before we are born! Look at Paul in Acts 22:16. He was sitting there still in sin as an adult man, who had believed that Jesus was the Son of God three days earlier, but he was still in sin when Ananias came to talk to him.

 

[brightfame52]

You are taking this passage, because it seems to say what you want it to say, and not comparing it to the rest of Scripture. How and when does God says we are washed of our sins?
Acts 3:19 - we are washed of our sins after we repent of our sins.
Acts 2:38 - we are washed of our sins after we repent and are baptized.
Rom 10:9-10 - we are washed of our sins when we believe and confess Jesus as Lord.
And there are many other passages that point to these same conditions. Jesus offers salvation to us based on our accepting His salvation. Our sins are not washed away before we are born! Look at Paul in Acts 22:16. He was sitting there still in sin as an adult man, who had believed that Jesus was the Son of God three days earlier, but he was still in sin when Ananias came to talk to him.

Rev 1:5 according to it, what washed them from their sins ?

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

According to Heb 1:3 what did Christ complete when He sat down at the Right hand of God ?

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

 

[Doug Brents]

Rev 1:5 according to it, what washed them from their sins ?

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Jesus washed us from our sins in His own blood, but Rev 1:5 is not a standalone verse. All of Scripture comes from ONE source, and that one source cannot make a mistake or contradict Himself. So this Rev 1:5 cannot mean something different than Acts, Romans, or any other passage of Scripture.

According to Heb 1:3 what did Christ complete when He sat down at the Right hand of God ?

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

The phrase "by himself" is only in four of the 32 primary translation listed in BibleHub.com, and it is inconsistent with the rest of what Scripture says. Yes, Jesus paid the price to purge our sins, but we do not receive the benefit of that sacrifice without obedience to Him as we can see in the passages cited earlier.