"Works Salvation"

[Obadiah]

Jesus' blood (the blood of the New Covenant) had not yet been shed at the Last Supper. So the New Covenant which was sealed with His blood could not have started then. The cup at the Last Supper was foreshadowing of what was to come at the earliest the next day.

If by believing you mean a genuine, action causing, obedient faith (as the Greek word pistis denotes), then you are correct, because that faith will include repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:8, 1 Pet 3:21). But if you mean intellectual assent, then you are completely off base, because even the demons have that. The demons know that Jesus is God, but they either cannot or will not submit to Him and so remain condemned. Just giving intellectual assent to Jesus does not save, for He is not the savior of those who have intellectual assent, but of those who obey Him (Heb 5:9).

And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.” (Luke 22:19-20)

Generally, Christians believe that the promised New Covenant was instituted at the Last Supper as part of the Eucharist, which, in the Gospel of John, includes the New Commandment.

 

[TomL]

'Then said they unto Him,
What shall we do,
that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him Whom He hath sent.'
(Joh 6:28)

Praise God!

Believing is not works salvation

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[brightfame52]

Believing is not works salvation

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

It is if you're making believe a condition for God to save you Abraham didn't do that

 

[TomL]

It is if you're making believe a condition for God to save you Abraham didn't do that

Read

Believing is not works salvation

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[brightfame52]

Read

Believing is not works salvation

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

If you make believing a condition you meet in order for God to save, or justify you, its works salvation. Nowhere in Rom 4:1-5 is believing a condition for Justification. What you think God offered Abraham a choice there ?

 

[TomL]

If you make believing a condition you meet in order for God to save, or justify you, its works salvation. Nowhere in Rom 4:1-5 is believing a condition for Justification. What you think God offered Abraham a choice there ?

You still ignore scripture

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[brightfame52]

Samuel Richardson makes a great point about our act of believing in Justification:

our believing cannot justify us, because the act of faith is a work, and if we be justified by our faith, then we are justified by works. That the act of faith is a work appears: 1. Because we are commanded to believe, {as we are,} to love one another, as he gave us commandment. “And this is his commandment, that we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.” {I Jn.3:23}

http://www.supralapsarian.com/pdf/richardson-justification-by-christ-alone.pdf

 

[Doug Brents]

And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.” (Luke 22:19-20)

Generally, Christians believe that the promised New Covenant was instituted at the Last Supper as part of the Eucharist, which, in the Gospel of John, includes the New Commandment.

Heb 9:18-22 - "Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22 And almost all things are cleansed with blood, according to the Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."
The covenant was not enacted, was not ratified, was not complete without the shedding of blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
The New Covenant was named and spoken for the first time at the Last Supper, but it was not sealed and initiated until the death of Christ, and it was meaningless until His resurrection (1 Cor 15:16-17).

 

[Obadiah]

Heb 9:18-22 - "Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22 And almost all things are cleansed with blood, according to the Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."
The covenant was not enacted, was not ratified, was not complete without the shedding of blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
The New Covenant was named and spoken for the first time at the Last Supper, but it was not sealed and initiated until the death of Christ, and it was meaningless until His resurrection (1 Cor 15:16-17).

That makes sense to me.

 

[TomL]

Samuel Richardson makes a great point about our act of believing in Justification:

http://www.supralapsarian.com/pdf/richardson-justification-by-christ-alone.pdf

Too bad it is anti-biblical

Romans 4:5 (ESV) — 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Galatians 2:16 (ESV) — 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Why do you reject God's word?

 

[brightfame52]

You still ignore scripture

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

If you make believing a condition you meet in order for God to save, or justify you, its works salvation. Nowhere in Rom 4:1-5 is believing a condition for Justification. What you think God offered Abraham a choice there ? And see post 1027

 

[Doug Brents]

Samuel Richardson makes a great point about our act of believing in Justification:

http://www.supralapsarian.com/pdf/richardson-justification-by-christ-alone.pdf

Bright, if you believe the Word of God, then you must accept what it says. If you don't accept what it says, then you should not profess to believe in Jesus.
You cite passages that say that our salvation/justification is contingent upon our belief and faith, and then say that it cannot be contingent upon belief or faith because those are "works" and our salvation is not contingent upon works. You cannot have it both ways. You must interpret Scripture based on Scripture, and accept what it says regardless of how you feel about it.
We are justified through faith. If we don't believe we cannot and will not be saved (regardless of whether we are "elect" or not). What makes one "elect" is the fact that we believe and exhibit our faith in Christ.

 

[TomL]

If you make believing a condition you meet in order for God to save, or justify you, its works salvation. Nowhere in Rom 4:1-5 is believing a condition for Justification. What you think God offered Abraham a choice there ? And see post 1027

You seem to have reading difficulty and exalt the word of man over the word of God

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Galatians 2:16 (ESV) — 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

 

[brightfame52]

Too bad it is anti-biblical

Romans 4:5 (ESV) — 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Galatians 2:16 (ESV) — 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Why do you reject God's word?

Its a testimony for the Truth of God

 

[brightfame52]

Bright, if you believe the Word of God, then you must accept what it says. If you don't accept what it says, then you should not profess to believe in Jesus.
You cite passages that say that our salvation/justification is contingent upon our belief and faith, and then say that it cannot be contingent upon belief or faith because those are "works" and our salvation is not contingent upon works. You cannot have it both ways. You must interpret Scripture based on Scripture, and accept what it says regardless of how you feel about it.
We are justified through faith. If we don't believe we cannot and will not be saved (regardless of whether we are "elect" or not). What makes one "elect" is the fact that we believe and exhibit our faith in Christ.

If you condition salvation/Justification on what you do, its apostate works Salvation

 

[TomL]

Its a testimony for the Truth of God

If it was truth you would be able to address scriptural rebuttal, but you cannot

Too bad it is anti-biblical

Romans 4:5 (ESV) — 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Galatians 2:16 (ESV) — 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Why do you reject God's word?

 

[brightfame52]

If it was truth you would be able to address scriptural rebuttal, but you cannot

Too bad it is anti-biblical

Romans 4:5 (ESV) — 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Galatians 2:16 (ESV) — 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Why do you reject God's word?

If you condition salvation/Justification on what you do, its apostate works Salvation

 

[Doug Brents]

If you condition salvation/Justification on what you do, its apostate works Salvation

Prove that Biblically! You give no proof of your claim, yet you repeat it over and over like one with no mind or reason.

 

[brightfame52]

Prove that Biblically! You give no proof of your claim, yet you repeat it over and over like one with no mind or reason.

Proving Truth is Gods business. I have given you the basis for my conviction

 

[brightfame52]

The same Arthur writes:

To obey a command, is a work; but to believe, is to obey a command. “And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.” {Acts 16:31} “And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” {Jn.11:26} Faith is an obeying of the will of God; therefore it’s a work, and a good work.

And we aren't saved by our good works Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;