Works and Salvation

[Soyeong]

There is a sense of works that we are required to have done first in order to earn something as a wage that is different from the sense of works that are intrinsically required to have the experience of doing something. For example, there is a difference between work that someone is required to have done first to earn a wage to pay for the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour and the work of driving it that is intrinsically required to have that experience. The opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour can also be given as a gift that requires someone to do the work to have that experience, but where that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to have that experience as a wage.

While there are many verse like Romans 4:1-5 that speak against works being required to earn our justification/righteousness/salvation/eternal life as a wage in the first sense, there are many verses like Hebrews 5:9 support that they require us to be doers of works in the second sense. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we are not required to have first obeyed it in order to earn our salvation as a wage, having the experience of living in obedience to it is intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from having the experience of not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us how to have the experience doing those works is intrinsically the content of His gift of saving us having the experience of not doing those works.

In other words, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of His law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23), not for how to earn eternal life as a wage.

 

[Seabass]

so while we are not required to have first obeyed it in order to earn our salvation as a wage,

.....nowhere is obedience to God's will ever said to be a work of merit done to earn God's favor. Obedience and works of merit are two totally different things.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all,
First addressing the OP. maybe this might help you in your understanding of the GRACE of God in Works and Faith concerning Salvation. Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:21 "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;" Romans 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" Romans 3:26 "To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:27 "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith." Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

how is this different from James 2:18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

answer. there is no works a sinner can do in order to be save, which answer the Pauline Roman 3 scenario. now with that in mind, now let's answer the James 2 scenario. in combination which Roman 3. there is nothing/or no work that a sinner can do in order to be saved but to believe in Christ Jesus. BUT once one is saved, now he can WORK, satisfying James 2.

let's put this in Laymans terms to be clearly understood. example. one do not just walk on a JOB and start to "WORK" and expected to get paid on Friday, NO.... ONE must be HIRED First, and then he or she work and then get paid on Friday. see Paul in Roman 3 is stating what one must do "BEFORE" salvation/BELIEVE, before being HIRED, James 2 is stating what one do "AFTER" salvation, being HIRED, then one go to WORK, and get paid at the end of the week..

so Paul is "BEFORE" one is HIRED/SAVED, (NO WORK, BELIEVED, GOD) James is "AFTER" one is HIRED/SAVED, (WORK/by FAITH, GOD).

as with CONFESSION of Sins. God never require a sinner to confess their sins to be saved, no, but God require the sinner to confess his Son Jesus to be saved. and once saved, God require a Saint/Saved one to confess their sins because they are SAVED. the same as with works and Faith, before salvation, and after salvation.

hope this helps.

101G.

 

[Soyeong]

GINOLJC, to all,
First addressing the OP. maybe this might help you in your understanding of the GRACE of God in Works and Faith concerning Salvation. Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:21 "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;" Romans 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" Romans 3:26 "To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:27 "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith." Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

how is this different from James 2:18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

answer. there is no works a sinner can do in order to be save, which answer the Pauline Roman 3 scenario. now with that in mind, now let's answer the James 2 scenario. in combination which Roman 3. there is nothing/or no work that a sinner can do in order to be saved but to believe in Christ Jesus. BUT once one is saved, now he can WORK, satisfying James 2.

let's put this in Laymans terms to be clearly understood. example. one do not just walk on a JOB and start to "WORK" and expected to get paid on Friday, NO.... ONE must be HIRED First, and then he or she work and then get paid on Friday. see Paul in Roman 3 is stating what one must do "BEFORE" salvation/BELIEVE, before being HIRED, James 2 is stating what one do "AFTER" salvation, being HIRED, then one go to WORK, and get paid at the end of the week..

so Paul is "BEFORE" one is HIRED/SAVED, (NO WORK, BELIEVED, GOD) James is "AFTER" one is HIRED/SAVED, (WORK/by FAITH, GOD).

as with CONFESSION of Sins. God never require a sinner to confess their sins to be saved, no, but God require the sinner to confess his Son Jesus to be saved. and once saved, God require a Saint/Saved one to confess their sins because they are SAVED. the same as with works and Faith, before salvation, and after salvation.

hope this helps.

101G.

Can you please interact with what I spoke about the difference between works done to earn something as the result and works that are intrinsically part of the experience of doing something? This resolves the issue of Romans 3:27-31, where the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to be doers of the law, but rather our faith upholds it, plus it resolves the issue between Paul and James. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty from our sin while we continued to live in sin, so there must be an ongoing aspect of our salvation that we are experiencing in the present. Again, un Titus 2:11-13, it doesn't say that we will do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather it describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do those works, so again it is speaking about the aspect of our salvation that we are experiencing in the present.

 

[Soyeong]

.....nowhere is obedience to God's will ever said to be a work of merit done to earn God's favor.

I agree.

Obedience and works of merit are two totally different things.

Please explain what you see as the difference.

 

[101G]

Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty from our sin while we continued to live in sin, so there must be an ongoing aspect of our salvation that we are experiencing in the present.

1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (READ THAT AGAIN)
1 John 1:10 "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

but understand, while in the bodies of Sin. we have an ........ the very next chapter. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" 1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

and just in case if we who are growing up happen not to confess a sin, if we sinned ........ we are about our Fathers business....... 1 Peter 4:8 "And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins."

and there are Many more verses that address our sins after salvation......

hope this helps.

101G.

 

[Soyeong]

1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (READ THAT AGAIN)
1 John 1:10 "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

but understand, while in the bodies of Sin. we have an ........ the very next chapter. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" 1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

and just in case if we who are growing up happen not to confess a sin, if we sinned ........ we are about our Fathers business....... 1 Peter 4:8 "And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins."

and there are Many more verses that address our sins after salvation......

hope this helps.

101G.

While I agree our salvation involve being saved from the penalty of our sins, there is also an aspect of our salvation that we are experiencing in the present by being trained by grace to experience living in obedience to God's law.

 

[Bronson]

All cults multiply requirements for salvation. All advocate some form of works salvation.

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine [is disloyal to what Jesus Christ taught], do not receive him [do not accept him, do not welcome or admit him] into [your] house or bid him Godspeed or give him any encouragement. 11 For he who wishes him success [who encourages him, wishing him Godspeed] is a partaker in his evil doings.
2 John 10–11

Paul taught something similar. He spoke of “false brethren” who secretly worked their way into the churches of Galatia in an effort to bring the believers there under the bondage of legalism Galatians 2:4

These men did not believe or proclaim the apostolic gospel of justification by faith alone, but rather they taught justification by faith plus works.

It’s likely that these false brethren initially pretended to agree with apostolic doctrine. Paul said they were “secretly brought in” and that they “came in by stealth”. My guess is they didn’t say something like, “Hi, we’re here to show you that Paul is a heretic and that his view of the gospel won’t save anyone.” Quickly, however, their true colors emerged and they began trying to proselytize the believers of Galatia toward their works-salvation “gospel.”

 

[Rockson]

While there are many verse like Romans 4:1-5 that speak against works being required to earn our justification/righteousness/salvation/eternal life as a wage in the first sense, there are many verses like Hebrews 5:9 support that they require us to be doers of works in the second sense.

Here's many a good analogy. Let's say there was a demand upon humans to move their bodies down a road 100 miles an hour. Outside of human ability to do so. God however gives you a new impartation (a new nature) we'll say an automobile. He give it to you by grace. Your now in a machine devise that can move you down the road at the speed above.

Now you have a new capacity and God expects you to utilize this capacity so he requires us to do works as you Heb 5:9 verse states. But these works are you cooperating with God yielding to this new capacity within you. allow it to develop and grow within you. When you are given this new nature this new capacity at that very movement you're righteous. You're not made more justified as you go along. You are justified. Your righteousness is NOT based on what you do.....but it's based on the precious blood of Jesus totally.

There is however the process of becoming conformed to the image of Christ or the continual process of sanctification taking place but that doesn't mean you're being made more righteous or justified. It means again you're being conformed to the image of Christ going from glory to glory but God always stands on your side when Satan says you're not absolutely perfect......you don't need to be in every way that word can be expressed but your righteousness is based or the foundation of the blood of Jesus.

If it wasn't then the devil could always put you under condemnation telling you you're not good enough no matter how much you've been conformed to his image. (more could be said)

 

[Soyeong]

All cults multiply requirements for salvation. All advocate some form of works salvation.

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine [is disloyal to what Jesus Christ taught], do not receive him [do not accept him, do not welcome or admit him] into [your] house or bid him Godspeed or give him any encouragement. 11 For he who wishes him success [who encourages him, wishing him Godspeed] is a partaker in his evil doings.
2 John 10–11

Paul taught something similar. He spoke of “false brethren” who secretly worked their way into the churches of Galatia in an effort to bring the believers there under the bondage of legalism Galatians 2:4

These men did not believe or proclaim the apostolic gospel of justification by faith alone, but rather they taught justification by faith plus works.

It’s likely that these false brethren initially pretended to agree with apostolic doctrine. Paul said they were “secretly brought in” and that they “came in by stealth”. My guess is they didn’t say something like, “Hi, we’re here to show you that Paul is a heretic and that his view of the gospel won’t save anyone.” Quickly, however, their true colors emerged and they began trying to proselytize the believers of Galatia toward their works-salvation “gospel.”

Can you please engage with what I said in instead of just ranting against works salvation? Works salvation is the position that we are required to have first done works in order to result in our salvation, and there are many verses that speak against this, so it is not a position that I hold. However, there are also many verses that support that our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of works, such a Romans 2:13, where Paul said that only doers of the law will be justified, and Matthew 7:23, where Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so there must be a reason why our salvation require us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as the result.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from out disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, so I am bringing the doctrine that Christ taught, which Paul also taught as the Gospel of Grace (Acts 14:21-22, Acts 19:8, Acts 20:25-25, Acts 28:23, 31). In Romans 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel involved bringing Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed.

The Bible does not actually state that we are justified by faith alone, but it does state that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). However, I agree that we are justified by faith alone insofar as we are not required to have first done works in order to earn our justification as the result, but that should not be mistaken as speaking against the sense that we are justified by works and not by faith alone insofar as the experience of being a doer of works is intrinsically part of our salvation, as I distinguished between in the OP. When someone does good works, the the significance is not that they are part of what they are required to do in order to earn their salvation as the result, but rather the significance is that they are expressing their faith, and it is by that faith that we are justified, so we are not justified by faith plus works as though our faith were insufficient for salvation, but rather our works are the way to have faith.

 

[Soyeong]

it Here's many a good analogy. Let's say there was a demand upon humans to move their bodies down a road 100 miles an hour. Outside of human ability to do so. God however gives you a new impartation (a new nature) we'll say an automobile. He give it to you by grace. Your now in a machine devise that can move you down the road at the speed above.

In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that is outside of our ability to do. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false way far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so the gift is in teaching His law, and this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

Now you have a new capacity and God expects you to utilize this capacity so he requires us to do works as you Heb 5:9 verse states. But these works are you cooperating with God yielding to this new capacity within you. allow it to develop and grow within you. When you are given this new nature this new capacity at that very movement you're righteous. You're not made more justified as you go along. You are justified. Your righteousness is NOT based on what you do.....but it's based on the precious blood of Jesus totally.

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so it is not that God expects or requires us to do those works because we have first been saved, but that God graciously teaching us to do those works is intrinsically part of God's gift of salvation.

There is a difference between the way to become righteous and what we are becoming when we become righteous. The only way to become righteous is through faith that we ought to be doers of righteous works and what we are becoming when we become righteous is a doer of righteous works. In 1 John 3:7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works is righteous even as they are righteous, so it is baed on what we do through faith in the blood of Jesus. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to have faith in the blood of Jesus (Acts 21:20).

There is however the process of becoming conformed to the image of Christ or the continual process of sanctification taking place but that doesn't mean you're being made more righteous or justified. It means again you're being conformed to the image of Christ going from glory to glory but God always stands on your side when Satan says you're not absolutely perfect......you don't need to be in every way that word can be expressed but your righteousness is based or the foundation of the blood of Jesus.

If it wasn't then the devil could always put you under condemnation telling you you're not good enough no matter how much you've been conformed to his image. (more could be said)

In Genesis 38:26, Judah said that she is more righteous than him, so there are levels of righteousness, but it's not about being good enough.

 

[synergy]

In Genesis 38:26, Judah said that she is more righteous than him, so there are levels of righteousness, but it's not about being good enough.

Interesting observation you made about Gen 38:26. I agree with you on this.

It's funny how so many people ask what is the minimum they must do in their relationship with God but they cower like mice when I challenge them to ask the same relationship question to their partner. It suddenly dawns on them what an idiotic question it really is.

 

[Rockson]

In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life!

Yeah but you're not righty dividing the word of truth. The old testament spoke of a time where man would have a higher capacity to obey then what he had in the OT times.

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Eze 36:26


Plus Jesus said what men could do in the Old Covenant but he was introducing that a higher capacity to walk in purity would soon arrive.

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. Mt 5:21

 

[Soyeong]

Yeah but you're not righty dividing the word of truth. The old testament spoke of a time where man would have a higher capacity to obey then what he had in the OT times.

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Eze 36:26

While the Spirit helps us to obey, it still involves the Spirit leading us to obey God's statutes and judgements even though most Christians reject God's statutes.

Plus Jesus said what men could do in the Old Covenant but he was introducing that a higher capacity to walk in purity would soon arrive.

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. Mt 5:21

Even if Jesus could have raised the bar without sinning and diqualjiftying himself as our Savior, then that would at least mean that we should still obey the Mosaic Law plus whatever else that he raised the bar to. However, we are instructed not to hate our brother in Leviticus 19:18, so Jesus wasn't teaching anything brand new.

 

[Rockson]

While the Spirit helps us to obey, it still involves the Spirit leading us to obey God's statutes and judgements even though most Christians reject God's statutes.

I'm not sure how that addresses the issue I raised in quoting Eze 36:26. Anyway the law was given according to Gal 3:24 the law was our schoolmaster to bringu us to Christ and also we no longer live by Christ lives in us. We must yeild to the Spirit and allow him to live his life in us and through us. They didn't have this in the OT times. They had moral principals they were to seek to adhere to but God knew they couldn't keep them in the purest way and form. Thus you read scriptures like Mt 5:21 and others

God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 1 Jn 4:15 This was only possible in the New Covenant times, Christ IN US the hope of glory. 2 Cor 6:16 is another verse, For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

Even if Jesus could have raised the bar without sinning and diqualjiftying himself as our Savior, then that would at least mean that we should still obey the Mosaic Law plus whatever else that he raised the bar to.

Not in the way that God intended. They didn't have the heart for it or the spiritual capacity. Thus the promise of a new heart or a new nature in the future.

 

[Bronson]

Can you please engage with what I said in instead of just ranting against works salvation? Works salvation is the position that we are required to have first done works in order to result in our salvation, and there are many verses that speak against this, so it is not a position that I hold. However, there are also many verses that support that our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of works, such a Romans 2:13, where Paul said that only doers of the law will be justified, and Matthew 7:23, where Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so there must be a reason why our salvation require us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as the result.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from out disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, so I am bringing the doctrine that Christ taught, which Paul also taught as the Gospel of Grace (Acts 14:21-22, Acts 19:8, Acts 20:25-25, Acts 28:23, 31). In Romans 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel involved bringing Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed.

The Bible does not actually state that we are justified by faith alone, but it does state that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). However, I agree that we are justified by faith alone insofar as we are not required to have first done works in order to earn our justification as the result, but that should not be mistaken as speaking against the sense that we are justified by works and not by faith alone insofar as the experience of being a doer of works is intrinsically part of our salvation, as I distinguished between in the OP. When someone does good works, the the significance is not that they are part of what they are required to do in order to earn their salvation as the result, but rather the significance is that they are expressing their faith, and it is by that faith that we are justified, so we are not justified by faith plus works as though our faith were insufficient for salvation, but rather our works are the way to have faith.

Sorry for ranting but It's what I do best. Since your thread is entitled works and salvation I don't see the problem. Just as you're entitled to have your opinion on this topic please allow me the same courtesy.

 

[101G]

While I agree our salvation involve being saved from the penalty of our sins, there is also an aspect of our salvation that we are experiencing in the present by being trained by grace to experience living in obedience to God's law.

101G agree, it's call GROWING UP, or GROWING in GRACE. supportive scripture, Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.".

and to LIVE PERFECT in God COMMAND, has he not already said what is the requirement? Micah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

101G.

 

[Seabass]

GINOLJC, to all,
First addressing the OP. maybe this might help you in your understanding of the GRACE of God in Works and Faith concerning Salvation. Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:21 "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;" Romans 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" Romans 3:26 "To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:27 "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith." Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

how is this different from James 2:18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

answer. there is no works a sinner can do in order to be save, which answer the Pauline Roman 3 scenario. now with that in mind, now let's answer the James 2 scenario. in combination which Roman 3. there is nothing/or no work that a sinner can do in order to be saved but to believe in Christ Jesus. BUT once one is saved, now he can WORK, satisfying James 2.

let's put this in Laymans terms to be clearly understood. example. one do not just walk on a JOB and start to "WORK" and expected to get paid on Friday, NO.... ONE must be HIRED First, and then he or she work and then get paid on Friday. see Paul in Roman 3 is stating what one must do "BEFORE" salvation/BELIEVE, before being HIRED, James 2 is stating what one do "AFTER" salvation, being HIRED, then one go to WORK, and get paid at the end of the week..

so Paul is "BEFORE" one is HIRED/SAVED, (NO WORK, BELIEVED, GOD) James is "AFTER" one is HIRED/SAVED, (WORK/by FAITH, GOD).

as with CONFESSION of Sins. God never require a sinner to confess their sins to be saved, no, but God require the sinner to confess his Son Jesus to be saved. and once saved, God require a Saint/Saved one to confess their sins because they are SAVED. the same as with works and Faith, before salvation, and after salvation.

hope this helps.

101G.

Paul and James are in 100% complete agreement that obedience to God's will justifies;

Rom 6:17-18--------obey from the heart (obedience to God) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justified
James 2--------------works (obedience to God) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justifies.

Obedience to God and works of merit are two totally different things.

Paul and James are reaching the same conclusion from different directions for they are not talking about the same kind of works. James is talking about obedience and in Rom 3 Paul is talking about the work of perfect flawless law keeping as required by the OT to be justified by it.

Hence James is saying faith apart from obedience to God cannot justifiy
Paul is saying works of flawless law keeping apart from faith cannot justifiy for no one's work will be perfectly, sinlessly flawless.

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:" Paul is saying the flawless works required by the OT law cannot justify.

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." the phrase 'without deeds of the law" means justified by faith without the work/deeds of perfect flawless law keeping as required by the OT law.

Therefore it takes faith AND and faith (not perfect) obedience to God's will to be justified. Hence raith alone, that is, faith apart from obedience is dead therefore cannot justify. The disobedient to God's will are lost and will continue to be lost unless, until they decide to obey God's will.

 

[101G]

Paul and James are in 100% complete agreement that obedience to God's will justifies;

Rom 6:17-18--------obey from the heart (obedience to God) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justified
James 2--------------works (obedience to God) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justifies.

Obedience to God and works of merit are two totally different things.

Paul and James are reaching the same conclusion from different directions for they are not talking about the same kind of works. James is talking about obedience and in Rom 3 Paul is talking about the work of perfect flawless law keeping as required by the OT to be justified by it.

Hence James is saying faith apart from obedience to God cannot justifiy
Paul is saying works of flawless law keeping apart from faith cannot justifiy for no one's work will be perfectly, sinlessly flawless.

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:" Paul is saying the flawless works required by the OT law cannot justify.

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." the phrase 'without deeds of the law" means justified by faith without the work/deeds of perfect flawless law keeping as required by the OT law.

Therefore it takes faith AND and faith (not perfect) obedience to God's will to be justified. Hence raith alone, that is, faith apart from obedience is dead therefore cannot justify. The disobedient to God's will are lost and will continue to be lost unless, until they decide to obey God's will.

Works is spiritual until acted upon, which is manifested. be it Good or evil.

101G.

 

[Seabass]

Works is spiritual until acted upon, which is manifested. be it Good or evil.

101G.

I do not know what this means or where it's found in the NT.