Why The Trinity is Wrong: Definition

[GeneZ]

We are not deserving of such flattering praise and accolades. Tell us about yourself. Are you a "Biblical" Unitarian like @Wrangler? If so, tell us what Bible verses convinced you of Arianism. Let's start with that, if you may.

Would you agree with the statement that we have only one God, the Father?

 

[praise_yeshua]

PY, I hope you are not loading up, readying yourself to pull the trigger and ignite a bullet that says honor = worship. It's a dud....I would consider a different tact if I were you.

You know you can just lay your cards all down now and then I can answer truthfully and completely in one big shotgun blast. Just saying....I really like getting to the point, fast....

You don't need to warn me. I'm a grown man. I know the subject. I'm not a novice. By all means, define honor.

Aren't you wasting time before getting to the point? You could have lead with a definition. Why not?


1. Define honor in the context of the Father. That is what is important here.
2. Since I am a son, will you honor me like you do the Father?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Would you agree with the statement that we have only one God, the Father?

Do you honor Jesus Christ as you do the Father?

Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Notice "honor the Son as they honor the Father".

The Son is more than your brother. We call Jesus Christ MASTER..... I don't call you "MASTER".

 

[Wrangler]

We are not deserving of such flattering praise and accolades. Tell us about yourself. Are you a "Biblical" Unitarian like @Wrangler? If so, tell us what Bible verses convinced you of Arianism. Let's start with that, if you may.

No, I don’t think he is. Still, there are a number of groups that reject the trinity one way or another - not just Arian or Biblical unitarian.

I am glad you asked him what verses caused him to reject the inherently contradictory doctrine of the trinity. I’ll sit back and enjoy the show.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Honor.....

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Jesus specifically appeals to this verse in Matthew 15

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

How is that for a Biblical Definition?

 

[Wrangler]

How is that for a Biblical Definition?

Again, relying on a bad translation.

Matthew 15:8-9

New Living Translation

​

8 ‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 Their worship is a farce,
for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.’[a]”

Your translation makes it seem it is required to worship someone other than the only true God, YHWH, who we relate to as father.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Again, relying on a bad translation.

Matthew 15:8-9

New Living Translation

​

8 ‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 Their worship is a farce,
for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.’[a]”

Your translation makes it seem it is required to worship someone other than the only true God, YHWH, who we relate to as father.

Did you miss the word "worship" in your preferred translation?

1. Define honor in the context of the Father. That is what is important here.
2. Since I am a son, will you honor me like you do the Father?

 

[APAK]

You don't need to warn me. I'm a grown man. I know the subject. I'm not a novice. By all means, define honor.

Aren't you wasting time before getting to the point? You could have lead with a definition. Why not?


1. Define honor in the context of the Father. That is what is important here.
2. Since I am a son, will you honor me like you do the Father?

1. Words have different shades of meaning and not just from the view of scripture, from any book or letter of old. And these shades can destroy the understanding of the original intent. Especially when translated from a much older culture and language into various forms of other languages over the centuries and then into modern English. Therefore context is paramount and so crucial. I hope that last statement rings loud.

2. When we worship God (Father), this worship INCLUDES honor.

3. And so to honor someone or something, doesn't mean we WORSHIP that person or that thing. We place value on something or someone, like a respect for it or someone for some 'good' reason.

Scripture and then cultures tell us to honor human kings, to honor our parents, our grandparents but this honor is NEVER worship.

4. In John 5:23; we aren't told to 'worship' Jesus, we are to "honor Jesus".

And why is this, because Jesus was sent by his God and Father to do God's will and not his own.

In John 5:19 & 30, Jesus denies being equal to God, his Father. Sounds so absurd just writing this..

Who tells us to honor Jesus? Our God and his God tell us.

So we honor Jesus not because he is God, but because our God tells us to.

So in verse 23... so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. (John 5:23)

The very context denotes Jesus comes NOT as God, but as God's representative. And also God his Father has delegated judgment on us to his Son. This is another very good reason to honor the Son as the Father.

Trinitarians unscripturally elevate this honor to worship. They IGNORE the context, why?

Answer: To make, or should I say FORCE God's word to agree with their pagan belief.

God, the true King, uses his son, as the Prince and emissary to represent him by sending him to negotiate a contract. And Jesus has been given full authority to negotiate for the King and others.

We honor the Son and NOT worship him as and above Father God, period! That would be idolatry.

Context is King as they say and Trinitarians are notorious at skipping it entirely in their discussions as they are laser-focused on forcing false claims and assertions into scripture, a false hope and prize...

 

[GeneZ]

Do you honor Jesus Christ as you do the Father?

Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Notice "honor the Son as they honor the Father".

The Son is more than your brother. We call Jesus Christ MASTER..... I don't call you "MASTER".

FYI .. I am a believer in the Trinity...

Now.. Please, answer my question please, and you will find out why I asked.

"Would you agree with the statement that we have only one God, the Father?"

(their predictable answer will end up snapping them on the butt!)

 

[synergy]

That’s just it. You don’t hold yourself to that same standard. The trinity is not in the Bible - not the word and not the concept. Yet, you have the audacity to tell others they have to back up with Bublicak citations.

The words Arianism/Unitarianism are not in the Bible either. So why are you promoting non-Biblical words when doing so is exactly what you're accusing others of doing? Sounds like double standards on your part.

 

[synergy]

Would you agree with the statement that we have only one God, the Father?

In the Greek, there is no comma anywhere in that phrase. It is "God the Father", which is a perfectly fine Trinitarian title as is God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

 

[Wrangler]

4. In John 5:23; we aren't told to 'worship' Jesus, we are to "honor Jesus".

And why is this, because Jesus was sent by his God and Father to do God's will and not his own.

Exactly. Trinitarians are constantly relying on misdirection. On this site, I’ve described as attempting a ‘back door’ into violating the 1st Commandment.

 

[synergy]

No, I don’t think he is. Still, there are a number of groups that reject the trinity one way or another - not just Arian or Biblical unitarian.

It would be interesting to know where he stands, or if he is a loner.

I am glad you asked him what verses caused him to reject the inherently contradictory doctrine of the trinity. I’ll sit back and enjoy the show.

I am more than willing to engage anyone who attacks the Divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Let's see if he takes on that challenge.

 

[Wrangler]

The words Arianism/Unitarianism are not in the Bible either. So why are you promoting non-Biblical words when doing so is exactly what you're accusing others of doing?

I’ve answered this specific question, perhaps half a dozen times already.

Are use the term unitarian to directly contradict trinitarianism. The Bible says Gos is one - not 3-in-1. That’s good enough for me. Why is it not good enough for you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

FYI .. I am a believer in the Trinity...

Now.. Please, answer my question please, and you will find out why I asked.

"Would you agree with the statement that we have only one God, the Father?"

(their predictable answer will end up snapping them on the butt!)

I'm not going to agree with that statement.

 

[civic]

Exactly. Trinitarians are constantly relying on misdirection. On this site, I’ve described as attempting a ‘back door’ into violating the 1st Commandment.

Sorry that’s unfortunate and I can’t read every post here lol and the same with the administrator. I primarily just like to post and interact with the members here and don’t like the moderation or admin duties.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm not going to agree with that statement.

Thereby, rejecting explicit Scripture.

 

[praise_yeshua]

1. Words have different shades of meaning and not just from the view of scripture, from any book or letter of old. And these shades can destroy the understanding of the original intent. Especially when translated from a much older culture and language into various forms of other languages over the centuries and then into modern English. Therefore context is paramount and so crucial. I hope that last statement rings loud.

The English word "honor" is an accurate translation. You're not present any evidence to establish your claim. You're bloviating.

I referenced Isa 29 for a reason. I already far ahead of you.

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

"Honor" here comes from the exact same Greek word. Used in John.

I'll take "internal evidence" any day over your conjecture.

1. What does "draw near to me" mean? It is essential that you recognize the context of "draw near to me".

The very context denotes Jesus comes NOT as God, but as God's representative. And also God his Father has delegated judgment on us to his Son. This is another very good reason to honor the Son as the Father.

Rubbish. Simply a statement without evidence to support your view.

2. You skipped my second question. I am a son, will YOU honor me like you honor the Father?

Context is King as they say and Trinitarians are notorious at skipping it entirely in their discussions as they are laser-focused on forcing false claims and assertions into scripture, a false hope and prize...

Context? You're ignoring the context. Honor is defined in Isa 29:13.... DRAW NEAR TO ME....

I'm sorry. I'm not going to call you Master or "draw near to you".

The Unitarian false doctrine that Jesus is just a "brother" is a false Gospel.

 

[GeneZ]

What makes someone "enabled" to grasp the Trinity?

What makes someone unable?

That is the real question...

 

[praise_yeshua]

Thereby, rejecting explicit Scripture.

How? Claim without evidence. You keep doing this.