How is this answer not a doublethink dodge (the acceptance of opposites to be both true at the same time) to accept what cannot be by relying upon HIS (supposed) authority to do ANYthing...?
Why Calvinism is a bad thing.
- Thread starter Diserner
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Diserner
Active Member
Because in this specific area, it is pride to think you have the ability and resources to judge all values and logic perfectly.
It's not doublespeak to say "there are some things I don't have to know and that are beyond me."
It is this insistence upon having to figure everything out that is a great temptation to us.
Of course ! by creating every person in HIS image, ie able to be an appropriate bride for HIM, with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour OR to rebuke HIM as a liar and therefore a false god.
This I believe to be the method creation of all persons, heavenly and earthly, and after the Satanic fall for rebuking HIM as a liar came the fall of some of the elect (those who put their faith in HIM, becoming HIS sheep) when they rebelled against the call for them to come out from among their friends who were now condemned so the judgment could happen, (thus becoming HIS sheep gone astray into enslaving evil and in need of redemption and sanctification).
This also explains why the judgement against the demonic reprobate weeds was postponed as per
Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to the explanation of this parable, ie, no more metaphor, in verses 36-39]
So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’[to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the wheat and the only maturity that saves a sinner from the judgment is a mature holiness!
Thus the sins of the sinful but good/elect people of the kingdom separated them from the holy elect and are the cause of the continued suffering of mankind on this earth....that is, by their will to sin and to stay in sin, not by HIS will or decision in the least!!!
GeneZ
Active Member
That is still not the answer to what I was getting at.
How was OMNISCIENT God? Who knows all things? Able to create all men without knowing He would creating someone destined for Hell?
Diserner
Active Member
Yes, God could use foreknowledge to only create people who he know would choose the good. It is logically possible under this scenario, since God cannot determine the free will choice, that an infinite number of creations would all reject God, but this would be extremely unlikely. However there are good reasons God would not do this.
This touches on both Molinism and the Problem of Evil, with explanations here:
Yeah, who does God think He is? God?
Gee, GOD is loving and righteous so HE cannot create any evil but
humans are sinful from conception and since this is their creation,
GOD must have created them sinful in Adam...
is mere lack of understanding of this logic that total opposites being believed at the same time is possible rather than it being an obvious implication something is terribly wrong with the logic and our theology needs revision.
Diserner
Active Member
I understand what you are saying, but it is still based in pride.
As high as the heavens are above the earth so are my thoughts above your thoughts.
Do you know the edge of the universe?
See, this is a major theme in Job, and it's annoying to us that God never gave Job an answer.
I've studied Job all my life—hundreds and hundreds of hours in Job—and it still bothers me.
It's not a real paradox or contradiction if we admit we might have missed something and made a mistake.
The truth is—we don't naturally account to God infinite value, and this messes up all our equations.
God has a valid reason to allow evil and suffering, and it is not a contradiction to his love and goodness and justice.
GeneZ
Active Member
Still missing it.
Look at it this way then...
How can God create all and give everyone a fair chance to be saved?
We need to think with what we learned from Jesus' example when coming to earth .... (Philippians 2:6-8)
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
HE knows perfectly what HE has decreed into creation and what HE has not decreed to be created HE knows perfectly as possibilities.
Acts 15:18 'Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.'
but NOT all of everything…
GOD knows with a full and complete knowledge everything HE decrees to exist or to happen, that is, all HIS works. GOD also knows that which HE has not decreed to exist or to happen as possibilities, fully and with complete knowledge.
Pre-Conception Existence Theology contends that GOD, by sovereign decree, created all of us with the ability to make true free will decisions, but HE did NOT decree the results of those choices so HE knew what we would choose perfectly only as possibilities.
So, I contend that GOD's omniscience covers:
1. all of reality; that is, all that HE ever decreed to be created, that is, all HIS works.
2. all of possibility; that is every possible permutation of the nature of the future was known to HIM.
So, I claim HIS omniscience is full and complete.
BUT I also contend that by HIS sovereignty, HE did not decree which possibility any of the spirits created in HIS image would choose, leaving that decision up to their own choice based upon their faith, their unproven hope for their happiness, Heb 11: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. ie unproven.
Does anyone argue that GOD cannot not decree which possibility will be chosen by a created person? GOD's will is sovereign and IF He does not decree which possibility will be chosen that is HIS will and it is righteous.
Therefore, in this manner, HE did not create the destiny (predestination) of anyone before their creation nor before their decision to accept HIM or to reject HIM as GOD, and the fate HE predestined them after their free will choice was in perfect accord with their own true free will decision, made by faith, ie an unproven hope, before the earth was created.
Earthly life on the other hand is predestined and predetermined to bring HIS sinful elect to redemption and to holiness by using the tares as the supreme bad example of relentless eternal hatred to GOD.
Peace, Ted
civic
Active Member
Yes for a grand total of 3 passages from romans 9, ephesians 1 and john 6
what do you mean by saying,,,,fair?
GeneZ
Active Member
All being bent towards their denominational bias.Yes for a grand total of 3 passages from romans 9, ephesians 1 and john 6
Paste a verse and I will show you what I mean.
Diserner
Active Member
Calvinism is not Biblical, they just brainwash people.
The Rogue Tomato
Active Member
Yes for a grand total of 3 passages from romans 9, ephesians 1 and john 6
There is much more scripture for reformed doctrine, but even if it only came down to one verse, do you honestly want to erase it from the Bible in order to justify your personal doctrine?
Diserner
Active Member
I am 100% willing to accept Calvinism and still reject it as a perversion of Scripture and the character of God.
civic
Active Member
I would never erase it lol just interpret the passage from its context. In fact I love those passages just not the spin thats put on them from their camp.
The Rogue Tomato
Active Member
Well, I know you're not the one who said this, but if you think the text says,
"29 For whom He foreknew about, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son depending on their free will choice, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also invited; whom He invited, depending on their response, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
You're not erasing or even interpreting scripture. You're rewriting it.
how do you think they brainwash them? is it like a whole conspiracy?
