You have not shown you understand what God's aseity consists of
Why are Calvinists so mean ?
- Thread starter civic
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Exactly. Which includes your future choices.
Aseity violation
It is you who does not understand aseity clearly.
civic
Well-known member
we see this on a daily basis rofl
Sorry, my future choices have nothing to do with God's self existence. He will continue to exist no matter what choices i make
civic
Well-known member
ditto
we see a violation and misrepresentation of Gods attributes on display lol.
that gets twisted in the same way scripture does to fit a man made doctrine/idea.
should we expect anything else lol ?
I guess not
Aseity is a term used in theology and metaphysics to describe the property by which a being exists of and from itself. It refers to the Christian belief that God does not depend on any cause other than himself for his existence, realization, or end, and has within himself his own reason of existence1. Aseity is the quality of having within oneself the entire reason for one's being, and utter independent self-existence and self-sustenance.
Quote them
If His foreknowledge, part of His existence, is dependent your future choices the tah is a Aseity violation.
It's you who do not understand
Sorry you have not shown any impact to God's existence if his foreknowage of my choice is based on my actual free choice
atpollard
Well-known member
I really do not understand your answer. Election of WHO? WHO is in Christ?
We are back to the question you sidestepped ...
I don't think even the most RADICAL HERETIC questions that God chose CHRIST as the MEANS of salvation (unless they are Jewish or Muslim and not Christian). The subject at hand is God's "election" of PEOPLE to be saved ... "planned" or "luck of the draw" (chance)?
You appear to be advocating 100% random selection ... Christian Darwinism ... those through luck, circumstance, innate superiority (whatever the cause) that CHOOSE to place themselves in Christ ride the "salvation train to eternity" while those that do not (irrespective of why) become "extinct". Is that really your position, or have I misunderstood your cryptic brevity?
atpollard
Well-known member
It is a violation of FIRST CAUSE ... it makes something OUTSIDE of God the FIRST CAUSE that causes the action of God (making God's Plan a "second cause"). That makes God dependent on something outside of Himself ... violating the DEFINITION of GOD and creating at best a "duality" of gods (the contra-biblical image of God and Satan as opposing equals) and at worst a pan-theistic view of "god" - with a little g - as one among many equal forces [like Zeus].
God must CAUSE, he cannot merely REACT.
civic
Well-known member
The first cause argument is an assumption within theology.
God is the first cause when it comes to the original creation. It is assumed in theology that filters down into all the other areas theologians attempt to make but cannot prove from scripture with determining everything that comes to pass with evil/sin.
Remember the one who causes things to happen/occur by determining them is the one who is responsible for those things, the guilty party.
Yes we know many times God has said neither did I cause that evil to happen nor did it ever cross His mind for those things to happen.
Remember God delivers from evil and does not cause evil as taught in Calvinism and the creeds. The Bible/ God is in complete opposition to the divine decree as taught by Calvin and the creeds.
Matthew 6:9-13
“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 ‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 ‘Give us this day [e]our daily bread.
12 ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
John 17:15
I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.
2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
2 Thessalonians 3:2-3
And that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.
1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.
Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…
Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.
Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind.
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.
Jeremiah 32:35
They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
The Biblical reality is everything God created ( caused, first cause ) was GOOD. His original creation was Good, not with evil or sin. Evil and sin came about because God allowed both men/angels the freedom, choice to love and serve their creator. The fact of the matter is God so loved His creation of man and angels that they were given the freedom to choose to love, worship and obey their Creator who did not control them. There was perfect love which requires the freedom and choice to love in return. Evil is the absence of Good just like darkness is the absence of light. Because the angels rebelled evil and sin came into existence. From there we see the result of what happened in the garden when sin/evil came to man through the temptation and failure to obey God.
God did not cause the angels or man to sin. God foreknew it would occur and made the plan of redemption as a way out for man to be saved and keep in a relationship with his Creator.
The calvinist is wrong in their deterministic/fatalistic world view where God caused those things to happen basically calling God not Good. Its an assault on Gods Good/Loving Character and nature.
hope this helps !!!
God did not cause the angels or man to sin. God foreknew it would occur and made the plan of redemption as a way out for man to be saved and keep in a relationship with his Creator.
The calvinist is wrong in their deterministic/fatalistic world view where God caused those things to happen basically calling God not Good. Its an assault on Gods Good/Loving Character and nature.
hope this helps !!!
And would seem to bind God's creative purposes to foreseen choices.
Another aseity violation. God's creative purposes are bound by His foreknowledge of your "free choices".
There is only one first or ultimate cause logically. God
civic
Well-known member
Nope that’s only with the original creation .
God emphatically declares He did not cause evil nor did it ever cross His mind. Jesus says God temps no one and said to pray God delivers is from evil not cause it as you falsely accuse our Heavenly Father of doing .
It’s an assault on the Goodness of God.
Next fallacy
Logically, there is only one first cause. Which would be creation.
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