Where's the wrath??

Gen. 3: 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

I assume God "Cursed the ground", or as it is written in another place, "Cursed the Land" because of His Anger/Wrath in that Adam betrayed Him. And so because of Adam's betrayal, God cursed the land.

Gen. 5: 28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son: 29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

Ex. 29: 24 Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus "unto this land"? what meaneth the heat of this great anger? 25 Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt: 26 For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them: 27 And the "anger" of the LORD was kindled "against this land", to bring upon it (The Land) all the curses that are written in this book: 28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.

But what does God also say for those who have been cast into this Land of God's Wrath.

Duet. 4: 25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger: 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. 27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. 28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

And so given these and other Scriptures, I have come to believe that this world God placed me in, a World that hates God, rejects His Judgments, Statutes and commandments, have created images of God in the Likeness of man, is a Land cursed by God "in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation", and when the Scriptures teach that of the Christ "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted", this means He too, was placed into the "Cursed Land".


Is. 54: 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Now this is my understanding, I didn't get this understanding from a sermon or another Philosopher of this world. I might be wrong about this understanding, but it comes from study and Faith, not from this world's religious sects, or philosophers.
you have yet to prove there is any of Gods anger/wrath on the righteous and faithful.
 
Wrath in the N.T. and its usages. Notice Christ below dishes out wrath and does not receive wrath.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3709: ὀργή

ὀργή, ὀργῆς, ἡ . In Biblical Greek anger, wrath, indignation (on the distinction between it and θυμός, see θυμός, 1): Ephesians 4:31; Colossians 3:8; James 1:19f; μετ' ὀργῆς, indignant (A. V. with anger), Mark 3:5; χωρίς ὀργῆς, 1 Timothy 2:8; anger exhibited in punishing, hence, used for the punishment itself (Demosthenes or. in middle § 43): of the punishments inflicted by magistrates, Romans 13:4; διά τήν ὀργήν, i. e. because disobedience is visited with punishment, Romans 13:5. The ὀργή attributed to God in the N. T. is that in God which stands opposed to man's disobedience, obduracy (especially in resisting the gospel) and sin, and manifests itself in punishing the same: John 3:36; Romans 1:18; Romans 4:15; Romans 9:22a; Hebrews 3:11; Hebrews 4:3; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 16:19; Revelation 19:15; absolutely, ἡ ὀργή, Romans 12:19 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 594 (553)); σκεύη ὀργῆς, vessels into which wrath will be poured (at the last day), explained by the addition κατηρτισμένα εἰς ἀπώλειαν, Romans 9:22b; ἡ μελλουσα ὀργή, which at the last day will be exhibited in penalties, Matthew 3:7; Luke 3:7 (others understand in these two passages the (national) judgments immediately impending to be referred to — at least primarily); also ἡ ὀργή ἡ ἐρχομένη, 1 Thessalonians 1:10; ἡμέρα ὀργῆς, the day on which the wrath of God will be made manifest in the punishment of the wicked (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 30, 2 a.), Romans 2:5; and ἡ ἡμέρα ἡ μεγάλη τῆς ὀργῆς αὐτοῦ (Revelation 6:17; see ἡμέρα, 3 at the end); ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργή τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐπί τινα, the wrath of God cometh upon one in the infliction of penalty (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 40, 2 a.), Ephesians 5:6; Colossians 3:6 (T Tr WH omit; L brackets ἐπί etc.); ἔφθασε (ἔφθακεν L text WH marginal reading) ἐπ' αὐτούς ἡ ὀργή, 1 Thessalonians 2:16; so ἡ ὀργή passes over into the notion of retribution and punishment, Luke 21:23; Rom. (Romans 2:8); ; Revelation 11:18; τέκνα ὀργῆς, men exposed to divine punishment, Ephesians 2:3; εἰς ὀργήν, unto wrath, i. e. to undergo punishment in misery, 1 Thessalonians 5:9. ὀργή is attributed to Christ also when he comes as Messianic judge, Revelation 6:16. (The Sept. for עֶבְרָה, wrath, outburst of anger, זַעַם, חֵמָה, חָרון, קֶצֶף, etc.; but chiefly for אַף.) Cf. Ferd. Weber, Vom Zorne Gottes. Erlang. 1862; Ritschl, Die christl. Lehre v. d. Rechtfertigung u. Versöhnung, ii., p. 118ff.

Notice the recipients of Gods wrath above. To punish the wicked.

hope this helps !!!
 
Yes upon the reprobate, idolators, God haters is where His wrath, indignation, anger and Judgement is upon, not the Righteous and followers of the True God.

You are making my point fpr me, keep on posting scriptures on wrath. :)

My point is that in this world, that hates God, where God curses the land with blindness, and giving religious men over the imaginations of their own heart, God's People are persecuted, and mocked and in danger every minute. Stepehen was stoned to death, Jesus was murdered, not because of God's wrath directed towards them, but because of the Wrath of God
you have yet to prove there is any of Gods anger/wrath on the righteous and faithful.

That's not my stated position, as my words clearly show. Therefore, I am not trying to prove as much. If you are uncomfortable discussing the world we live in, and why God Himself said it was so, that's fine.
 
My point is that in this world, that hates God, where God curses the land with blindness, and giving religious men over the imaginations of their own heart, God's People are persecuted, and mocked and in danger every minute. Stepehen was stoned to death, Jesus was murdered, not because of God's wrath directed towards them, but because of the Wrath of God


That's not my stated position, as my words clearly show. Therefore, I am not trying to prove as much. If you are uncomfortable discussing the world we live in, and why God Himself said it was so, that's fine.
God does not hate the world, God loves the world. Read John 3:16 and all the other passages that say the same thing.

The world hates God, yet God loves that world and sent His Son to die and stone for that sinful world. 1 John 2:2.
 
God does not hate the world, God loves the world. Read John 3:16 and all the other passages that say the same thing.

The world hates God, yet God loves that world and sent His Son to die and stone for that sinful world. 1 John 2:2.


You keep misrepresenting what I say Civic. I didn't say God Hates the World. I didn't Say God directs His wrath on those whose refuge is the Lord. Why do keep creating a false narrative against me, then argue against me as if I said it? I can see you don't want to address the scriptures I posted, nor engage in any honest or unbiased discussion about those Scriptures. And that's fine. But please don't create a false representation of my understanding, and then continue as if the falsehood was true.

I mean you can if you want. I would just prefer that you didn't.
 
You keep misrepresenting what I say Civic. I didn't say God Hates the World. I didn't Say God directs His wrath on those whose refuge is the Lord. Why do keep creating a false narrative against me, then argue against me as if I said it? I can see you don't want to address the scriptures I posted, nor engage in any honest or unbiased discussion about those Scriptures. And that's fine. But please don't create a false representation of my understanding, and then continue as if the falsehood was true.

I mean you can if you want. I would just prefer that you didn't.
Sorry for misrepresenting you its early and I'm just drinking my first cup of coffee. I just reread your post.
 
I find it blasphemous and an assault on Gods Good and Loving nature within the Tri-Unity of God. Therefore, PSA is an assault upon the very character and nature of God.

"Perichoresis is the fellowship of three co-equal Persons perfectly embraced in love and harmony and expressing an intimacy that no one can humanly comprehend. The Father sends the Son (John 3:16), and the Spirit proceeds from the Father and was sent by the Son (John 15:26)—another example of perichoresis, with the result that God’s people are blessed.

There is nothing that separates the Persons of the Trinity or interrupts the mysterious interchange of perichoresis. It can be imagined as a Venn diagram showing three circles intersecting in the center with each circle intersecting the others perfectly and multi-dimensionally, as they rotate about a common center of divine love."

What is perichoresis? | GotQuestions.org

hope this helps !!!

I am in full agreement with @dizerner

1.1.3 Christ as Sacrifice
When we return to the NT construal of Jesus’s death as a sacrificial
offering, it is worth bearing in mind that what ultimately matters
for the doctrine of the atonement is not how the sacrifices may
have been originally understood but how the NT authors understood them. For example, the author of Hebrews says flatly, “It is
impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins”

(Heb 10.4).

He thereby reveals his understanding of the OT sacrifices as intended, at least, to expiate sin and his view of Christ’s self-sacrifice as truly expiatory. The NT authors did not think of Christ
on the analogy of a bloodless scapegoat or grain offering but
focused on the animal sacrifices, the author of Hebrews going so
far as to say that “without the shedding of blood there is no
forgiveness of sins” (Heb 9.22).

The NT writers think of Christ’s death as both expiatory and
propitiatory.


With regard to the expiation of sin, the author of
Hebrews hammers home the point that in contrast to the OT
sacrifices, “which can never take away sins” (10.11), Christ, “having
been offered once to bear the sins of many” (9.28), “remove[d] sin
by the sacrifice of himself” (9.26), so that “we have been sanctified
through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (10.10).


John presents Christ as a Passover lamb whose death, in contrast to
the original Passover sacrifice, is expiatory: “Behold, the Lamb of

God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (Jn 1.29).

Paul uses
technical Levitical terminology to refer to Christ as “a sin offering”
(peri hamartias) (Rom 8.3; cf. Heb. 10.6, 8). Those who have
believed in Christ “have been justified by his blood” (Rom 5.9).

Christ’s righteous act of obedience “leads to acquittal and life for all
men. For ... by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous” (5.18–19).

With regard to propitiation, the protracted debate over the
linguistic meaning of hilastērion in Rom 3.25, “whom God put
forward as a hilastērion in his blood,”
6 has unfortunately diverted
attention from the conceptual necessity of propitiation in Paul’s

thinking.

Whatever word Paul might have used here – had he
written, for example, peri hamartias, as in Rom 8.3, instead of
hilastērion – the context would still require that Christ’s death
provide the solution to the problem described in chapters 1–3.


Paul’s crowning statement concerning Christ’s atoning death
(Rom 3.21–26) comes against the backdrop of his exposition of
God’s wrath upon and condemnation of mankind for its sin.


Something in Paul’s ensuing exposition of Christ’s death must
solve this problem, averting God’s wrath and rescuing us from the
death sentence hanging over us. The solution is found in Christ,

“whom God put forward as a hilastērion in his blood” (3.25).

6 For an overview of the debate, see Bailey (forthcoming). It is not disputed that
we find quite different meanings of hilastērion in the LXX and in extra-biblical
Greek literature, including the literature of Hellenistic Judaism. What is disputed is which is the relevant meaning of the word as used by Paul on this one
occasion.

The predominant meaning in extra-biblical literature is “propitiation”
or “propitiatory offering.”


Especially noteworthy are the deaths of the
Maccabean martyrs, which allayed God’s wrath upon Israel (2 Macc 7.38),
and thus served as “a propitiatory offering” (4 Macc 17.22 codex S; cf. Sibylline
Oracles 3.625–28, where God is propitiated by the sacrifice of hundreds of bulls
and lambs).

This case belies any claims that hilastēria had to be concrete,
inanimate objects.


The LXX, on the other hand, uses hilastērion to refer to the
kapporet or lid of the ark of the covenant, where the blood of the Yom Kippur
sacrifice was splashed, or, more widely, to altar faces where sacrificial blood was
smeared (Ezek 43.14, 17, 20; Amos 9.1). On this interpretation Christ is the locus
of atonement for sin.
 
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This is vague-
... so is this.

Mine was just a statement of fact. PSA grew out of the earlier medieval idea that Jesus had paid a ransom to Satan to purchase back humanity (which had problems for some theologians) and was put forward in the Reformation by the Luther, Calvin and fully articulated by Charles Hodge.

Aquinas does not write about Penal Substitution, nor does Jerome nor the many other Theologians that predated the Reformation. They suggest different theories.
 
... so is this.

Mine was just a statement of fact. PSA grew out of the earlier medieval idea that Jesus had paid a ransom to Satan to purchase back humanity (which had problems for some theologians) and was put forward in the Reformation by the Luther, Calvin and fully articulated by Charles Hodge.

Aquinas does not write about Penal Substitution, nor does Jerome nor the many other Theologians that predated the Reformation. They suggest different theories.
Yes it’s from the mid evil and dark ages timeframe.
 
... before I waste time, does this present scripture or just pious opinions?
(I was looking for the former and have had a stomach full of the latter).

Although it is not JESUS' DEATH that I am denying ... it is the FATHER'S WRATH that I cannot find in scripture directed at either ...
  1. OUR (the Saint's) sin.
  2. Jesus Christ.
 
... before I waste time, does this present scripture or just pious opinions?
(I was looking for the former and have had a stomach full of the latter).

Although it is not JESUS' DEATH that I am denying ... it is the FATHER'S WRATH that I cannot find in scripture directed at either ...
  1. OUR (the Saint's) sin.
  2. Jesus Christ.
same ole lame ole stuff you have heard about wrath/propitiation and God killing His Son.

Anyone teaching the Father killing/murdering the Son is teaching blasphemy.
 
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... before I waste time, does this present scripture or just pious opinions?
(I was looking for the former and have had a stomach full of the latter).

Although it is not JESUS' DEATH that I am denying ... it is the FATHER'S WRATH that I cannot find in scripture directed at either ...
  1. OUR (the Saint's) sin.
  2. Jesus Christ.
If you are not willing to give this video clip a listen or read data on penal vicarious substitution or read around then this is a waste of my time and yours.
I am willing to recommend a book for you to read but your mind is set.
Shalom
Enjoy your day.
PSA is biblically sound and goes hand in glove WITH Christus Victor.
 
100% error the Father killing the Son.

I agree.

Who was responsible for putting Jesus to death, was it God or man?

Matthew 16:21-
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life


Matthew 20:18-19 -“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified.

Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.

Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take

Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross

Acts 4:10,11 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 7:52 Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him

1 Corinthians 2:8
- None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory


conclusion: The Father killing the Son is blasphemy, anti biblical, anti- God .anti- Christ, anti- Chrriatian. Its 100% paganism.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Someone should get their Biblical facts correct as to who killed Jesus. Scripture is clear that it was the JEWISH leaders who were responsible for the death of Christ, His suffering and crucifixion.
 
Someone should get their Biblical facts correct as to who killed Jesus. Scripture is clear that it was the JEWISH leaders who were responsible for the death of Christ, His suffering and crucifixion.
Well, credit where credit is due ... some of MY ancestors might have been holding the Hammer. We served in the Legions of Rome. :oops:
 
Well, credit where credit is due ... some of MY ancestors might have been holding the Hammer. We served in the Legions of Rome.
You are a rare bird among your reformed brethren :). You would get crucified on the other forum opposing PSA lol. One of the conditions when I originally joined was I could not discuss PSA. I had to agree to that as it was off limits. I started a thread on old CARM forums where we all came from and it was very controversial and had 30k posts. But you are free to oppose it here all you want with my full support 😂
 
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You would get crucified on the other forum opposing PSA lol.
... and have been. :ROFLMAO:

The irony is that it was DEFENDING PSA that I was challenged to show where SCRIPTURE taught the WRATH of the Father on the Son.
  • You know me and my "Sola Scriptura" ... I was CERTAIN that it had to be there and DETERMINED to locate it. It was reading EVERY VERSE on WRATH that lead me to a clearer picture of God's wrath and what GOD said about it. I had to admit that SCRIPTURE said something different about the WRATH of God than I had been TOLD.
Easy choice for me ... "norma normans, non normata" ... What SCRIPTURE says is TRUTH, everything else must conform to the TRUTH of Scripture [Even MY preferred theories].
 
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