Where's the wrath??
- Thread starter Joe
- Start date
e v e
Well-known member
the evil realm tortured Christ
He volunteered to come to this hellhole
...to incarnate here and was tortured
(daniels oven, in the other reality)
just as we were! to even get here....
and then those demons murdered
him on this earth
at the cross
He volunteered to come here
taking a huge step down ---
into this horrible ape body
...to rescue us...
God did not punish Him
but He will punish the evil realm for
all they have done
very soon.
He volunteered to come to this hellhole
...to incarnate here and was tortured
(daniels oven, in the other reality)
just as we were! to even get here....
and then those demons murdered
him on this earth
at the cross
He volunteered to come here
taking a huge step down ---
into this horrible ape body
...to rescue us...
God did not punish Him
but He will punish the evil realm for
all they have done
very soon.
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atpollard
Well-known member
I agree with your conclusion.
I was merely suggesting another word to look up in the KJV. The list you chose and the conclusion you drew from those specific words NOT appearing or NOT APPLYING to Jesus created the false impression that PSA was invented from whole cloth (out of nothing). That impression was not fair to those that disagree with our “no wrath” point of view. They did not create it from nothing, they have OTHER WORDS that they use that do apply to Jesus that they choose to interpret different than you and I do.
I was merely pressing to keep the conversation “Scripturally Honest”.
atpollard
Well-known member
Do you have the Chapter and Verse from which “It was my sin that nailed Him there” is taken?
Its a SOLA SCRIPTURA thing, for me.
atpollard
Well-known member
I sort of agree.
Where is the scripture on who he paid?
However, Jesus certainly suffered for my redemption (No argument there).
I find claims that the Father poured His wrath upon the Son eisegetical fantasy not found in scripture.
Could you define “blasphemy” from Scripture so your claim can be evaluated? I do not believe that denial of a doctrine that did not even exist until the 16th Century qualifies.
PSA traces to Martin Luther, John Calvin and Charles Hodge.
Diserner
Well-known member
I don't believe that.
Jesus suffered for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to God.
Not suffered "about" sins or "around" sins.
atpollard
Well-known member
You have already been presented with the verses that state that it was at the hands of evil men, so there is nothing gained by repeating what has been ignored.
I am still waiting for anything that suggests the Father HATED (wrath, vengeful anger) the Son when scripture clearly states that God LOVED the Son and the Son chose to ”lay down his life for the sheep” because THAT was the Father’s Will.
civic
Well-known member
Ditto. The focus is only on 1 OT verse in (Is 53)that hints at wrath against the dozens of passages that oppose that viewpoint. It’s not a very sound hermeneutic to take the one to nullify the many.
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Diserner
Well-known member
Ridiculous assertions, not even honest.
I have tons of posts on this with many more Scriptures on this forum.
It is not a lack of Scrpitures that makes anyone reject doctrine, it is an unwillingness to accept the truth when it comes.
Frankly, I am worn out praying for mercies at such stubbornness.
I have tons of posts on this with many more Scriptures on this forum.
It is not a lack of Scrpitures that makes anyone reject doctrine, it is an unwillingness to accept the truth when it comes.
Frankly, I am worn out praying for mercies at such stubbornness.
atpollard
Well-known member
Isaiah 53 speaks of “WE considered him stricken by God”, which is a commentary on the nation rather than the actions of the Father.
At the actual event … the ATONEMENT itself … Jesus said:
Matthew 27:46 [NKJV] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
Which is itself a direct quote from the opening verse of Psalm 22 … a SERMON from the Cross explaining to all exactly what was happening right before their eyes:
Psalm 22:1-24 [NKJV] 1 … My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me, And from the words of My groaning? 2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear; And in the night season, and am not silent. 3 But You are holy, Enthroned in the praises of Israel. 4 Our fathers trusted in You; They trusted, and You delivered them. 5 They cried to You, and were delivered; They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.
- A cry of one suffering as if abandoned, but still proclaiming trust in God (the Father).
- Jesus was reproached and despised of men, just as Isaiah 53 said it would be and the Gospels record it happened.
9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb; You made Me trust while on My mother's breasts. 10 I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother's womb You have been My God.
- Still the Son trusts in the Father … as He always has … forever obeying the Will of the Father.
11 Be not far from Me, For trouble is near; For there is none to help. 12 Many bulls have surrounded Me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me. 13 They gape at Me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet; 17 I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. 18 They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots.
- The enemies that surround Christ are men and it is to the Father that He turns for support, not wrath.
19 But You, O LORD, do not be far from Me; O My Strength, hasten to help Me! 20 Deliver Me from the sword, My precious life from the power of the dog. 21 Save Me from the lion's mouth And from the horns of the wild oxen! You have answered Me.
- GOD ANSWERS HIM! The Father “hastens to help”, he does not “punish the Son in our place”.
22 I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You. 23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him! All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel! 24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from Him; But when He cried to Him, He heard.
- Christ affirms in no uncertain terms that GOD does NOT abhor the affliction of the afflicted and the FATHER did not hide His face from the Son. The Father HEARD the Son when He cried out to Him.
civic
Well-known member
I concur
atpollard
Well-known member
John 1:1-37
atpollard
Well-known member
My standard is a verse stating or implying the WRATH of the Father being directed against the Son.
The closest we have is a prophesy from Isaiah that states “we” (people) considered Jesus smitten by God … which is exactly what happened in the Gospels … the PEOPLE mocked Jesus and believed that God was punishing Him for blasphemy. We know that Jesus was not being killed for his blasphemy, so the PEOPLE were wrong.
So what else suggests the wrath (angry punishment) of the Father against the Son?
Scripture, not hyperbole.
atpollard
Well-known member
There may be “many more scriptures on this forum”, but here are all of your scriptures from this Topic:
This was addressed that God stores up wrath and delivers it on the day of wrath [Romans 2:5], to His enemies, not His children [John 3:18]. So we agree with this verse, but this verse is not speaking about the Father and the Son, is it?
That was your only Scripture Verse offered in this topic.
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