And you are not my final authority @civic although you are a friend.
Where's the wrath??
- Thread starter Joe
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civic
Well-known member
Sola Scripture
I find it interesting we can read that our Lord "suffered" for our sins and yet we cannot find it anywhere that He was punished for our sins.
A sin offering was never punished. Demonstratively, it suffered death because of man's sins not because of its own, as the righteous for the unrighteous.
Our Lord was given by our Father as an offering for our sins. He suffered-died for our sins, "the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God".
Again, nowhere in the bible is it ever mentioned that an OT sin offering was punished, and nowhere is it mentioned that our Lord was punished. No wrath. No punishment. A ransom for our very lives was made to free us from the curse of the Law of sin and death. An offering of the righteous suffering death for the unrighteous, bringing us to God.
God Bless
A sin offering was never punished. Demonstratively, it suffered death because of man's sins not because of its own, as the righteous for the unrighteous.
Our Lord was given by our Father as an offering for our sins. He suffered-died for our sins, "the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God".
Again, nowhere in the bible is it ever mentioned that an OT sin offering was punished, and nowhere is it mentioned that our Lord was punished. No wrath. No punishment. A ransom for our very lives was made to free us from the curse of the Law of sin and death. An offering of the righteous suffering death for the unrighteous, bringing us to God.
God Bless
Because of the transgression {pesha`}
of My people,
'the stroke of judgement' {nega`}. . .
{fell} on Him
{God's divine justice HAD to punishment ALL human sins.
He took this judgment to Himself on the cross}.
{Verse 9: Our Lord's burial and the Cross.}
9~~While His burial would be assigned with criminals
{meaning in obscurity - Jesus hung on the cross surrounded by 2
true criminals and He should have been buried in an anonymous/
obscure place under Roman law - but the Jews wanted to show
He did NOT rise from the dead so He was not buried where
assigned}
yet He would be associated with a 'rich man' {`ashiyr}
in His deaths;
{plural - first spiritual death, then physical death -
though crucified with criminals, He was buried in a rich man's tomb
this was part of God's intervention - the most prominent tomb of
the day - that of the rich man, Joseph of Arimathea}
because He had done no 'wrong of any kind' {chamac},
neither was any deceit {mirmah} in His mouth.
{no overt sins nor sins of the Tongue - He was without sin
God also knows Jesus had no mental attitude sins, but
that is not covered here - just that He was witnessed to be
without sin is covered here.}
{Verse 10: Our Lord's Resurrection and the Cross}
10a~~Yet, it was willed/desired/purposed
{chaphets - can mean to 'please, love or desire' but that meaning
is not correct here - it was a command decision by the Father}
by Jehovah/God
{God the Father}
to 'totally crush'/bruise
{daka' - Piel intensive stem}
Him
{humanity of Jesus Christ - see also Psalm 22:6}.
10b~~He {God the Father}
caused the affliction {chalah}
when You will appoint His soul 'a Trespass offering'
{'asham - the 5th Levitical offering - the Trespass offering - the
Doctrine of 'Gain'},
{Note: This sentence all of a sudden switches from the third person to the second person. This is Isaiah's version of a parenthetical insertion to show 'when' this will happen - at the time of the cross. Now why did Isaiah only mention the Trespass offering instead of also the other four types of offering (Leviticus 5 and 6). The trespass offering portrays the rebound offering with emphasis on the known sin. The one who is wronged is the gainer. So, here Jesus Christ is wronged and He is the gainer - He gained a Royal Family. God also is wronged by our sinning and He also gains. He sends one Son to the cross and He has many sons for eternity (see 10c next). The trespass offering is the 'emphasis' here. God gains by having His Son back in heaven. And, Jesus had to die in order to be resurrected - He is 'the first fruits' - so that the rest of us could be resurrected also.}
{Verse 11: Doctrine of Salvation and the Cross}
11~~From the sorrow of His soul
{God the Father - anthropopathism to describe in human terms
the effect of God the Father judging His Son as a substitute for
us}
He shall observe the 'trouble of His soul'
{imputation of Judgment to the humanity of Jesus Christ},
and shall be satisfied/propitiated.
Guess you need to read carefully brother.
Hello Johann,
What translation are you using?
Two deaths? How do you reconcile Jesus Christ being God and dying to Himself? At the mount of transfiguration we see both the divinity and humanity of Christ. If He died to His divinity, as He would by spiritual death, then how is He God?
None of the writers of the NT ever once mentions our Lord dying spiritually, but we can find He died bodily. The Apostle Paul wrote, "he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless".
Jesus said, "Behold, the hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home, and will leave me alone. Yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me." And He said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!". And Paul wrote, "the ministry of reconciliation; namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself".
How could He have been dead spiritually when His Father was in Him reconciling the world to Himself; when Jesus said He is not alone but His Father is with Him; and upon His death He committed His Spirit to His Father?
No spiritual death was involved. Our Lord died bodily. He never stopped being the Word; from being God.
Isaiah 53 tells us why our Lord died, "When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand." There is no wrath mentioned in Isaiah 53, only an offering for our sins. The One who is sinless giving His life unto death explicitly to atone for our sins makes us right with God; this is the pleasure of our Father, and it is by God's grace that He accepts the death of a sinless One for the sin of the sinners.
We understand from Romans 3:23-26 that God sent our Lord to be the atoning sacrifice to demonstrate His righteousness for passing over prior sins and how He judges present ones. God vindicated His righteousness by His own Son dying for our sins, thus proving He is just and the justifier of those who have faith in Jesus. No one can rightfully accuse God of being unrighteousness for giving sinful man eternal life, since His own sinless Son died for us-on our behalf.
Since sin calls for death, our Lord died for us/on our behalf. He was not punished for our sins. Sin offerings were not punished, but their innocent life was sacrificed for the sins of the people; this points us to the grace of God who did not want to destroy us but save us. Our Father does not need to vent wrath on His innocent Son to feel better about us. He needed to redeem us from the curse of the law, death. "the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood", "for you (the Lamb) were killed, and bought us for God with your blood".
There is so much to be said, but this is more than enough.
God bless, brother.
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Ezra
Well-known member
He gave up the Ghost so yes and no
Frank Russell
Well-known member
The wrath, it's waiting for the day of judgment probably. If scripture is to be believed.
If scripture is to be believed, God is inspiring people to repent through kindness in this period of time.
If scripture is to be believed, God is inspiring people to repent through kindness in this period of time.
Diserner
Well-known member
lol
I'm not going to debate but reading this--
Text: Isaiah 53:4-5 (NIV)
Verse 4:
"Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted."
Verse 5:
"But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed."
Parsing and Analysis
Verse 4
"Surely he took up our pain"
Surely (אָכֵן, ’aken): Emphatic particle, affirming the statement.
He (הוּא, hu): Pronoun, subject, referring to the servant (interpreted by Christians as Jesus).
Took up (נָשָׂא, nasá): Verb, Qal perfect, 3rd person masculine singular, meaning "to lift, carry, take up."
Our pain (חֳלָיֵנוּ, cholayenu): Noun, plural with 1st person plural suffix, meaning "our sickness" or "our pain."
"And bore our suffering"
And (וְ, ve): Conjunction.
Bore (סָבַל, sabal): Verb, Qal perfect, 3rd person masculine singular, meaning "to bear, carry."
Our suffering (מַכְאֹבֵינוּ, mak'ovenu): Noun, plural with 1st person plural suffix, meaning "our sorrows" or "our suffering."
"Yet we considered him punished by God"
Yet (וַאֲנַחְנוּ, va'anachnu): Conjunction with pronoun, "but we."
Considered (חָשַׁבְנֻהוּ, chashavnuhu): Verb, Qal perfect, 1st person plural with 3rd person masculine singular suffix, meaning "we considered him."
Him (הוּא, hu): Pronoun, object, referring to the servant.
Punished (נָגוּעַ, nagu'a): Verb, Pual participle, masculine singular, meaning "stricken, afflicted."
By God (מֻכֵּה אֱלֹהִים, mukkeh Elohim): Verb (Hiphil participle, masculine singular, "struck" or "smitten") + noun (God).
"Stricken by him, and afflicted"
Stricken (נָגוּעַ, nagu'a): Verb, Pual participle, masculine singular, "stricken."
By him (מֻכֵּה, mukkeh): Verb, Hiphil participle, masculine singular, "smitten."
And afflicted (וּמְעֻנֶּה, u-me'unneh): Conjunction + verb, Pual participle, masculine singular, "afflicted."
Verse 5
"But he was pierced for our transgressions"
But (וְהוּא, ve'hu): Conjunction with pronoun, "but he."
Was pierced (מְחֹלָל, mecholal): Verb, Pual perfect, 3rd person masculine singular, "pierced" or "wounded."
For (מִן, min): Preposition, "for" or "because of."
Our transgressions (פְּשָׁעֵינוּ, pesha'einu): Noun, plural with 1st person plural suffix, "our transgressions."
"He was crushed for our iniquities"
He (הוּא, hu): Pronoun, subject.
Was crushed (מְדֻכָּא, meduká): Verb, Pual perfect, 3rd person masculine singular, "crushed."
For (מִן, min): Preposition, "for" or "because of."
Our iniquities (עֲוֹנֹתֵינוּ, avonotenu): Noun, plural with 1st person plural suffix, "our iniquities."
"The punishment that brought us peace was on him"
The punishment (מוּסַר, musar): Noun, singular, "chastisement" or "discipline."
That brought us peace (שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ, shalomenu): Noun, singular with 1st person plural suffix, "our peace" or "our well-being."
Was on him (עָלָיו, alav): Preposition with 3rd person masculine singular suffix, "upon him."
"And by his wounds we are healed"
And (וּבַחֲבֻרָתוֹ, u-bachavurato): Conjunction with noun, "and by his wounds" (noun with 3rd person masculine singular suffix).
We are healed (נִרְפָּא לָנוּ, nirpa lanu): Verb, Nifal perfect, 1st person plural, "we are healed."
Verse 4 emphasizes that the servant (interpreted by Christians as Jesus) took on the pain and suffering of others, yet he was wrongly perceived as being punished by God for his own faults. The verbs "took up" (נָשָׂא) and "bore" (סָבַל) in their perfect forms indicate completed actions, emphasizing the servant’s definitive act of bearing pain and suffering.
Verse 5 highlights the substitutionary aspect of the servant’s suffering: he was "pierced" and "crushed" for the transgressions and iniquities of others. The terms "punishment" (מוּסַר) and "peace" (שָׁלוֹם) imply that the servant’s suffering brought reconciliation and healing to those for whom he suffered. The perfect forms of the verbs "was pierced" (מְחֹלָל) and "was crushed" (מְדֻכָּא) underscore the completed and sufficient nature of this sacrificial act.
Theologically, Christians interpret this passage as a prophecy about the atoning work of Jesus Christ, who bore the sins and sufferings of humanity, bringing peace and healing through his sacrificial death.
--makes me a firm believer in PSA--
e v e
Well-known member
Christ was certainly punished and tortured in order to incarnate and be here to legally save us and make possible the de facto saving of us soon at rapture.... but the punishing cruelty to Him was by the evil realm. Not by God.
That is the problem with psa... it has God punishing Jesus. So the wrong punisher.
That is the problem with psa... it has God punishing Jesus. So the wrong punisher.
civic
Well-known member
Amen sister
koberstein
Active member
e v e
Well-known member
Christ as our Deity paid our price. Anger of course was about the fall and the sin committed. Of course God was angry at us but then He sent His son, and all through history, and we see it in the OT, He tries to get souls to Listen to Him, which true, they did not and instead followed their own traditions and got cursed. yet, His Love is so much that even then, He sent His Son. From Love.
But that is a different subject than the evil ones putting Christ to death and torturing Him. They are not His souls, not even on the same team but worked for the satanic realm and HATED Christ. The evil ones doing that were the pharisees and those who actually, physically murdered Him. Not God.
But that is a different subject than the evil ones putting Christ to death and torturing Him. They are not His souls, not even on the same team but worked for the satanic realm and HATED Christ. The evil ones doing that were the pharisees and those who actually, physically murdered Him. Not God.
Christ Jesus was our Chattat.
His statement was
Nowhere in the bible is it mentioned that God the Father poured wrath out upon His own Son that He sent to save us?
What happened on the cross in those dark hours is between God and His beloved Son. Just be thankful.
