Where's the wrath??

[Watchman]

yet God did not cause their sin- His foreknowledge of sin is not the same as predestining acts of sin. Calvinists like to equate them and conflate them. They are not one in the same.

That is a false accusation. Of course foreknowledge is not the same as predestination (for one thing, predestination is always applied to people, in the Bible, not events; whereas, foreknowledge is applied to both, with different meanings) as every "Calvinist" knows.

By the way, the expression is "one and the same", not "one in the same".

God not only foreknew the acts of wicked men (re. the cross) (of course he did, since he'd planned them to happen, before the foundation of the world), but he also brought them about by his determinate counsel, as the Bible states, and as you omitted to mention.

 

[TomL]

And who determined that wicked men would crucify Christ? God did! God uses means to his ends.

God knowing their heart and their desire to kill Christ

Acts 2:23 (LEB) — 23 this man, delivered up by the determined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed by nailing to a cross through the hand of lawless men.

 

[Joe]

Ps 22.

Hello brother,

Wrath of God is not found in Psalms 22. What we read is a prophecy concerning our Lord when our Father delivered/gave Him over (ref: Acts 2:23) to evil people who despised, ridiculed, and hated Him. It is a prophecy of the events. Our Lord fully knew what He came to do and what awaited for him. And in all that happened to Him, none of it was God's wrath

Please point out any of the 31 verses in Psalms 22 that witness God's wrath against His Son, who humbly and willingly came into our form to suffer and die at the hands of evil men in order to give His life as the atoning sacrifice for our sin. Our Father's will to hand Him over and not rescue Him from the wicked people who surrounded Him is not wrath. It is God's grace in action that a sinless Man would die for the sins of the sinner. It is God proving that He is righteous and merciful; that sin demands death and in the sacrificial death of His Son for our sins, God proves He merciful and just to justify all who believe in Jesus Christ.

We should be edified by the fact that God did not pour wrath out on His Son, but showed love and grace towards us by delivering/giving up His own Son to save us from the wrath to come and adopt us as His children.

Jesus Christ dying on a cross was a rescue mission to save mankind from God's wrath for sinning against Him. It had zero to do with God needing to vent His anger on His Son to feel eternally good about forgiving us. We are forgiven by the grace of God that His Son willingly became like one of us and died like a sinner on a cross to ransom us from sin, death, and the grave.

God was not looking to vent anger; this is not love, but He was needing someone to stand the gap for us in love that would give His own life for our sinful lives. This single act of righteousness is what saves us (ref: Rom 5:18). Jesus Christ is and will forever br our Great High Priest who gave His own sinless life to purchase/redeem us. God honors Him, not us. It is our faith in Jesus Christ loving and dying for us that God honors and forgives us.


God Bless

 

[Muckah]

This looks like a very good topic for discussion. We know that at the cross, Jesus took our sin upon Himself. He paid the penalty for our sin. He became our substitute. At the cross God’s justice was satisfied, and His love fulfilled. Then Jesus said, “It is accomplished.” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

But how did that work? How do we grasp the incredible meaning of propitiation?

 

[civic]

Hello brother,

Wrath of God is not found in Psalms 22. What we read is a prophecy concerning our Lord when our Father delivered/gave Him over (ref: Acts 2:23) to evil people who despised, ridiculed, and hated Him. It is a prophecy of the events. Our Lord fully knew what He came to do and what awaited for him. And in all that happened to Him, none of it was God's wrath

Please point out any of the 31 verses in Psalms 22 that witness God's wrath against His Son, who humbly and willingly came into our form to suffer and die at the hands of evil men in order to give His life as the atoning sacrifice for our sin. Our Father's will to hand Him over and not rescue Him from the wicked people who surrounded Him is not wrath. It is God's grace in action that a sinless Man would die for the sins of the sinner. It is God proving that He is righteous and merciful; that sin demands death and in the sacrificial death of His Son for our sins, God proves He merciful and just to justify all who believe in Jesus Christ.

We should be edified by the fact that God did not pour wrath out on His Son, but showed love and grace towards us by delivering/giving up His own Son to save us from the wrath to come and adopt us as His children.

Jesus Christ dying on a cross was a rescue mission to save mankind from God's wrath for sinning against Him. It had zero to do with God needing to vent His anger on His Son to feel eternally good about forgiving us. We are forgiven by the grace of God that His Son willingly became like one of us and died like a sinner on a cross to ransom us from sin, death, and the grave.

God was not looking to vent anger; this is not love, but He was needing someone to stand the gap for us in love that would give His own life for our sinful lives. This single act of righteousness is what saves us (ref: Rom 5:18). Jesus Christ is and will forever br our Great High Priest who gave His own sinless life to purchase/redeem us. God honors Him, not us. It is our faith in Jesus Christ loving and dying for us that God honors and forgives us.


God Bless

Amen brother !!!

 

[civic]

This looks like a very good topic for discussion. We know that at the cross, Jesus took our sin upon Himself. He paid the penalty for our sin. He became our substitute. At the cross God’s justice was satisfied, and His love fulfilled. Then Jesus said, “It is accomplished.” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

But how did that work? How do we grasp the incredible meaning of propitiation?

I answered that here in this thread which is what led me out of calvinism.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-nature-of-god-in-the-atonement.30/

 

[civic]

This looks like a very good topic for discussion. We know that at the cross, Jesus took our sin upon Himself. He paid the penalty for our sin. He became our substitute. At the cross God’s justice was satisfied, and His love fulfilled. Then Jesus said, “It is accomplished.” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

But how did that work? How do we grasp the incredible meaning of propitiation?

His 2 minute clip is right on the money.

Some would have us believe John 3:16 means- For God so hated the world that He killed his only son.

I hear this sentiment daily on this forum by a certain group. Its part of their doctrine that goes with tulip.

 

[Muckah]

I answered that here in this thread which is what led me out of calvinism.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-nature-of-god-in-the-atonement.30/

Thanks for the link. That's just what I needed to start my study with.

 

[civic]

Thanks for the link. That's just what I needed to start my study with.

You are welcome.

 

[Muckah]

I have found a lot in Scripture about God’s love for us. But there’s quite a lot about God’s wrath as well. Is God’s love only one side of God’s character? Is wrath really another, complementary side we must consider?

Like what we see in Hebrews 12:6-11?

6. For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.”
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.
11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Also in Romans 11:22 we are told to consider the “kindness and sternness of God.” In KJV it’s the “goodness and severity of God”.

So would it be a weak, overly feel-good theology that considers only God’s love but neglects to consider God’s wrath?

 

[Neil Spargo]

@ Muckah This is explained most clearly in Ephesians 2:1-7

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Nowhere does this say that the way God did this is by turning his wrath toward his Son. This is something we simply assume. But if we look at the text more closely, we see something quite different: though we were “by nature children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3), this is not what God felt toward us. Ephesians 2:4-5 say, “Because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses.” God did not feel wrath toward us, but “great love”!

Our nature may have been “children of wrath,” but God viewed us differently, even while we “dead in our trespasses,” that is, before Jesus died on the cross. There was no transfer of wrath onto his Son. There was love for us and love for his Son, and so God delivered us from our spiritual death just as he delivered his Son from his physical death.

 

[Behold]

@ There was no transfer of wrath onto his Son.

The punishment for sin, that is on these...

John 3:36

is the "CUP" that Jesus asked to be delivered from...........

So, that punishment against sin, that fell on Jesus, is equal to the punishment that is waiting for all unbelievers.

John 3:36.

A lot of Christians dont realize that Unbelievers are currently DAMNED.....and its by being Born again that they are SAVED from Damnation.

A person says..>>>"what does it mean.... when i hear "JESUS SAVES"....

A.) He's saving you from HELL........John 3:36

 

[Dizerner]

So would it be a weak, overly feel-good theology that considers only God’s love but neglects to consider God’s wrath?

Yes.