Where's the wrath??

[The Rogue Tomato]

And there IS no verse where Jesus says "I am God."

Setting your own standard for the way YOU want a truth to be said is wrong.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

They understood what Jesus was saying, and that's why...

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him

 

[Diserner]

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

They understood what Jesus was saying, and that's why...

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him

You're missing the point I'm trying to make here.

You're using this to make logical deductions of which I more or less agree.

They want a verse that says "the Father poured wrath on the Son" exactly with no deductions involved.

 

[atpollard]

They want a verse that says "the Father poured wrath on the Son" exactly with no deductions involved.

[sigh] Here are the verses on the wrath of God:

• [Exo 15:7 NKJV] 7 And in the greatness of Your excellence You have overthrown those who rose against You; You sent forth Your wrath; It consumed them like stubble.
• [Exo 22:24 NKJV] 24 "and My wrath will become hot, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.
• [Exo 32:10-12 NKJV] 10 "Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation." 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: "LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 "Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, 'He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people.
• [Lev 10:6 NKJV] 6 And Moses said to Aaron, and to Eleazar and Ithamar, his sons, "Do not uncover your heads nor tear your clothes, lest you die, and wrath come upon all the people. But let your brethren, the whole house of Israel, bewail the burning which the LORD has kindled.
• [Num 1:53 NKJV] 53 "but the Levites shall camp around the tabernacle of the Testimony, that there may be no wrath on the congregation of the children of Israel; and the Levites shall keep charge of the tabernacle of the Testimony."
• [Num 11:33 NKJV] 33 But while the meat [was] still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was aroused against the people, and the LORD struck the people with a very great plague.
• [Num 16:46 NKJV] 46 So Moses said to Aaron, "Take a censer and put fire in it from the altar, put incense [on it], and take it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them; for wrath has gone out from the LORD. The plague has begun."
• [Num 18:5 NKJV] 5 "And you shall attend to the duties of the sanctuary and the duties of the altar, that there [may] be no more wrath on the children of Israel.
• [Num 25:11 NKJV] 11 "Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, has turned back My wrath from the children of Israel, because he was zealous with My zeal among them, so that I did not consume the children of Israel in My zeal.
• [Deu 9:7-8, 22 NKJV] 7 "Remember! Do not forget how you provoked the LORD your God to wrath in the wilderness. From the day that you departed from the land of Egypt until you came to this place, you have been rebellious against the LORD. 8 "Also in Horeb you provoked the LORD to wrath, so that the LORD was angry [enough] with you to have destroyed you. ... 22 "Also at Taberah and Massah and Kibroth Hattaavah you provoked the LORD to wrath.
• [Deu 29:23, 28 NKJV] 23 'The whole land [is] brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and His wrath.' ... 28 'And the LORD uprooted them from their land in anger, in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as [it is] this day.'
• [Jos 9:20 NKJV] 20 "This we will do to them: We will let them live, lest wrath be upon us because of the oath which we swore to them."
• [Jos 22:20 NKJV] 20 'Did not Achan the son of Zerah commit a trespass in the accursed thing, and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel? And that man did not perish alone in his iniquity.' "
• [1Sa 28:18 NKJV] 18 "Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day.
• [2Ki 22:13, 17 NKJV] 13 "Go, inquire of the LORD for me, for the people and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that has been found; for great [is] the wrath of the LORD that is aroused against us, because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us." ... 17 'because they have forsaken Me and burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke Me to anger with all the works of their hands. Therefore My wrath shall be aroused against this place and shall not be quenched.' " '
• [2Ki 23:26 NKJV] 26 Nevertheless the LORD did not turn from the fierceness of His great wrath, with which His anger was aroused against Judah, because of all the provocations with which Manasseh had provoked Him.
• [1Ch 27:24 NKJV] 24 Joab the son of Zeruiah began a census, but he did not finish, for wrath came upon Israel because of this census; nor was the number recorded in the account of the chronicles of King David.
• [2Ch 12:7, 12 NKJV] 7 Now when the LORD saw that they humbled themselves, the word of the LORD came to Shemaiah, saying, "They have humbled themselves; [therefore] I will not destroy them, but I will grant them some deliverance. My wrath shall not be poured out on Jerusalem by the hand of Shishak. ... 12 When he humbled himself, the wrath of the LORD turned from him, so as not to destroy [him] completely; and things also went well in Judah.
• [2Ch 19:2, 10 NKJV] 2 And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to King Jehoshaphat, "Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Therefore the wrath of the LORD [is] upon you. ... 10 "Whatever case comes to you from your brethren who dwell in their cities, whether of bloodshed or offenses against law or commandment, against statutes or ordinances, you shall warn them, lest they trespass against the LORD and wrath come upon you and your brethren. Do this, and you will not be guilty.
• [2Ch 24:18 NKJV] 18 Therefore they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served wooden images and idols; and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem because of their trespass.
• [2Ch 28:11, 13 NKJV] 11 "Now hear me, therefore, and return the captives, whom you have taken captive from your brethren, for the fierce wrath of the LORD [is] upon you." ... 13 and said to them, "You shall not bring the captives here, for we [already] have offended the LORD. You intend to add to our sins and to our guilt; for our guilt is great, and [there is] fierce wrath against Israel."
• [2Ch 29:8, 10 NKJV] 8 "Therefore the wrath of the LORD fell upon Judah and Jerusalem, and He has given them up to trouble, to desolation, and to jeering, as you see with your eyes. ... 10 "Now [it is] in my heart to make a covenant with the LORD God of Israel, that His fierce wrath may turn away from us.
• [2Ch 30:8 NKJV] 8 "Now do not be stiff-necked, as your fathers [were, but] yield yourselves to the LORD; and enter His sanctuary, which He has sanctified forever, and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of His wrath may turn away from you.
• [2Ch 32:25-26 NKJV] 25 But Hezekiah did not repay according to the favor [shown] him, for his heart was lifted up; therefore wrath was looming over him and over Judah and Jerusalem. 26 Then Hezekiah humbled himself for the pride of his heart, he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the wrath of the LORD did not come upon them in the days of Hezekiah.
• [2Ch 34:21, 25 NKJV] 21 "Go, inquire of the LORD for me, and for those who are left in Israel and Judah, concerning the words of the book that is found; for great [is] the wrath of the LORD that is poured out on us, because our fathers have not kept the word of the LORD, to do according to all that is written in this book." ... 25 'because they have forsaken Me and burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke Me to anger with all the works of their hands. Therefore My wrath will be poured out on this place, and not be quenched.' " '
• [2Ch 36:16 NKJV] 16 But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till [there was] no remedy.
• [Ezr 5:12 NKJV] 12 "But because our fathers provoked the God of heaven to wrath, He gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Chaldean, [who] destroyed this temple and carried the people away to Babylon.
• [Ezr 7:23 NKJV] 23 Whatever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it diligently be done for the house of the God of heaven. For why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and his sons?
• [Ezr 8:22 NKJV] 22 For I was ashamed to request of the king an escort of soldiers and horsemen to help us against the enemy on the road, because we had spoken to the king, saying, "The hand of our God [is] upon all those for good who seek Him, but His power and His wrath [are] against all those who forsake Him."
• [Ezr 10:14 NKJV] 14 "Please, let the leaders of our entire assembly stand; and let all those in our cities who have taken pagan wives come at appointed times, together with the elders and judges of their cities, until the fierce wrath of our God is turned away from us in this matter."
• [Neh 13:18 NKJV] 18 "Did not your fathers do thus, and did not our God bring all this disaster on us and on this city? Yet you bring added wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath."
• [Job 14:13 NKJV] 13 "Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
• [Job 16:9 NKJV] 9 He tears [me] in His wrath, and hates me; He gnashes at me with His teeth; My adversary sharpens His gaze on me.
• [Job 19:11, 29 NKJV] 11 He has also kindled His wrath against me, And He counts me as [one of] His enemies. ... 29 Be afraid of the sword for yourselves; For wrath [brings] the punishment of the sword, That you may know [there is] a judgment."
• [Job 20:23, 28 NKJV] 23 [When] he is about to fill his stomach, [God] will cast on him the fury of His wrath, And will rain [it] on him while he is eating. ... 28 The increase of his house will depart, [And his goods] will flow away in the day of His wrath.
• [Job 21:20, 30 NKJV] 20 Let his eyes see his destruction, And let him drink of the wrath of the Almighty. ... 30 For the wicked are reserved for the day of doom; They shall be brought out on the day of wrath.
• [Job 36:13, 18 NKJV] 13 "But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; They do not cry for help when He binds them. ... 18 Because [there is] wrath, [beware] lest He take you away with [one] blow; For a large ransom would not help you avoid [it].
• [Job 40:11 NKJV] 11 Disperse the rage of your wrath; Look on everyone [who is] proud, and humble him.
• [Job 42:7 NKJV] 7 And so it was, after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me [what is] right, as My servant Job [has].
• [Psa 2:5, 12 NKJV] 5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, And distress them in His deep displeasure: ... 12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish [in] the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all those who put their trust in Him.
• [Psa 21:9 NKJV] 9 You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; The LORD shall swallow them up in His wrath, And the fire shall devour them.
• [Psa 38:1 NKJV] 1 A Psalm of David. To bring to remembrance. O LORD, do not rebuke me in Your wrath, Nor chasten me in Your hot displeasure!
• [Psa 58:9 NKJV] 9 Before your pots can feel [the burning] thorns, He shall take them away as with a whirlwind, As in His living and burning wrath.
• [Psa 59:13 NKJV] 13 Consume [them] in wrath, consume [them], That they [may] not [be]; And let them know that God rules in Jacob To the ends of the earth. Selah
• [Psa 78:31, 38, 49 NKJV] 31 The wrath of God came against them, And slew the stoutest of them, And struck down the choice [men] of Israel. ... 38 But He, [being] full of compassion, forgave [their] iniquity, And did not destroy [them]. Yes, many a time He turned His anger away, And did not stir up all His wrath; ... 49 He cast on them the fierceness of His anger, Wrath, indignation, and trouble, By sending angels of destruction [among them].
• [Psa 79:6 NKJV] 6 Pour out Your wrath on the nations that do not know You, And on the kingdoms that do not call on Your name.
• [Psa 85:3 NKJV] 3 You have taken away all Your wrath; You have turned from the fierceness of Your anger.
  [Psa 88:7, 16 NKJV] 7 Your wrath lies heavy upon me, And You have afflicted [me] with all Your waves. Selah ... 16 Your fierce wrath has gone over me; Your terrors have cut me off.
• [Psa 89:46 NKJV] 46 How long, LORD? Will You hide Yourself forever? Will Your wrath burn like fire?
• [Psa 90:7, 9, 11 NKJV] 7 For we have been consumed by Your anger, And by Your wrath we are terrified. ... 9 For all our days have passed away in Your wrath; We finish our years like a sigh. ... 11 Who knows the power of Your anger? For as the fear of You, [so is] Your wrath.
• [Psa 95:11 NKJV] 11 So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "
• [Psa 102:10 NKJV] 10 Because of Your indignation and Your wrath; For You have lifted me up and cast me away.
• [Psa 106:23, 40 NKJV] 23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy [them]. ... 40 Therefore the wrath of the LORD was kindled against His people, So that He abhorred His own inheritance.
• [Psa 110:5 NKJV] 5 The Lord [is] at Your right hand; He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
• [Pro 11:4, 23 NKJV] 4 Riches do not profit in the day of wrath, But righteousness delivers from death. ... 23 The desire of the righteous [is] only good, [But] the expectation of the wicked [is] wrath.

Here are MANY verses on the Wrath of God (and there are many more). God shows, pours and inflicts His wrath on sin and evil doers. God “turns aside” and relents from His wrath for those that obey or turn from their wickedness.

What NO VERSE EVER describes is any TRANSFER of wrath.
However, it is without any evidence that you ask me to reject the weight of all these scriptural examples of wrath and embrace your “logic” that God suddenly chose to enact the greatest transfer of WRATH in the history of creation. I am not demanding an exact phrase, I am requesting SOME EVIDENCE that is not 100% human speculation or simply a misreading of what the scripture is clearly saying.

 

[civic]

[sigh] Here are the verses on the wrath of God:

• [Exo 15:7 NKJV] 7 And in the greatness of Your excellence You have overthrown those who rose against You; You sent forth Your wrath; It consumed them like stubble.
• [Exo 22:24 NKJV] 24 "and My wrath will become hot, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.
• [Exo 32:10-12 NKJV] 10 "Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation." 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: "LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 "Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, 'He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people.
• [Lev 10:6 NKJV] 6 And Moses said to Aaron, and to Eleazar and Ithamar, his sons, "Do not uncover your heads nor tear your clothes, lest you die, and wrath come upon all the people. But let your brethren, the whole house of Israel, bewail the burning which the LORD has kindled.
• [Num 1:53 NKJV] 53 "but the Levites shall camp around the tabernacle of the Testimony, that there may be no wrath on the congregation of the children of Israel; and the Levites shall keep charge of the tabernacle of the Testimony."
• [Num 11:33 NKJV] 33 But while the meat [was] still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was aroused against the people, and the LORD struck the people with a very great plague.
• [Num 16:46 NKJV] 46 So Moses said to Aaron, "Take a censer and put fire in it from the altar, put incense [on it], and take it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them; for wrath has gone out from the LORD. The plague has begun."
• [Num 18:5 NKJV] 5 "And you shall attend to the duties of the sanctuary and the duties of the altar, that there [may] be no more wrath on the children of Israel.
• [Num 25:11 NKJV] 11 "Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, has turned back My wrath from the children of Israel, because he was zealous with My zeal among them, so that I did not consume the children of Israel in My zeal.
• [Deu 9:7-8, 22 NKJV] 7 "Remember! Do not forget how you provoked the LORD your God to wrath in the wilderness. From the day that you departed from the land of Egypt until you came to this place, you have been rebellious against the LORD. 8 "Also in Horeb you provoked the LORD to wrath, so that the LORD was angry [enough] with you to have destroyed you. ... 22 "Also at Taberah and Massah and Kibroth Hattaavah you provoked the LORD to wrath.
• [Deu 29:23, 28 NKJV] 23 'The whole land [is] brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and His wrath.' ... 28 'And the LORD uprooted them from their land in anger, in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as [it is] this day.'
• [Jos 9:20 NKJV] 20 "This we will do to them: We will let them live, lest wrath be upon us because of the oath which we swore to them."
• [Jos 22:20 NKJV] 20 'Did not Achan the son of Zerah commit a trespass in the accursed thing, and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel? And that man did not perish alone in his iniquity.' "
• [1Sa 28:18 NKJV] 18 "Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day.
• [2Ki 22:13, 17 NKJV] 13 "Go, inquire of the LORD for me, for the people and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that has been found; for great [is] the wrath of the LORD that is aroused against us, because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us." ... 17 'because they have forsaken Me and burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke Me to anger with all the works of their hands. Therefore My wrath shall be aroused against this place and shall not be quenched.' " '
• [2Ki 23:26 NKJV] 26 Nevertheless the LORD did not turn from the fierceness of His great wrath, with which His anger was aroused against Judah, because of all the provocations with which Manasseh had provoked Him.
• [1Ch 27:24 NKJV] 24 Joab the son of Zeruiah began a census, but he did not finish, for wrath came upon Israel because of this census; nor was the number recorded in the account of the chronicles of King David.
• [2Ch 12:7, 12 NKJV] 7 Now when the LORD saw that they humbled themselves, the word of the LORD came to Shemaiah, saying, "They have humbled themselves; [therefore] I will not destroy them, but I will grant them some deliverance. My wrath shall not be poured out on Jerusalem by the hand of Shishak. ... 12 When he humbled himself, the wrath of the LORD turned from him, so as not to destroy [him] completely; and things also went well in Judah.
• [2Ch 19:2, 10 NKJV] 2 And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to King Jehoshaphat, "Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Therefore the wrath of the LORD [is] upon you. ... 10 "Whatever case comes to you from your brethren who dwell in their cities, whether of bloodshed or offenses against law or commandment, against statutes or ordinances, you shall warn them, lest they trespass against the LORD and wrath come upon you and your brethren. Do this, and you will not be guilty.
• [2Ch 24:18 NKJV] 18 Therefore they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served wooden images and idols; and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem because of their trespass.
• [2Ch 28:11, 13 NKJV] 11 "Now hear me, therefore, and return the captives, whom you have taken captive from your brethren, for the fierce wrath of the LORD [is] upon you." ... 13 and said to them, "You shall not bring the captives here, for we [already] have offended the LORD. You intend to add to our sins and to our guilt; for our guilt is great, and [there is] fierce wrath against Israel."
• [2Ch 29:8, 10 NKJV] 8 "Therefore the wrath of the LORD fell upon Judah and Jerusalem, and He has given them up to trouble, to desolation, and to jeering, as you see with your eyes. ... 10 "Now [it is] in my heart to make a covenant with the LORD God of Israel, that His fierce wrath may turn away from us.
• [2Ch 30:8 NKJV] 8 "Now do not be stiff-necked, as your fathers [were, but] yield yourselves to the LORD; and enter His sanctuary, which He has sanctified forever, and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of His wrath may turn away from you.
• [2Ch 32:25-26 NKJV] 25 But Hezekiah did not repay according to the favor [shown] him, for his heart was lifted up; therefore wrath was looming over him and over Judah and Jerusalem. 26 Then Hezekiah humbled himself for the pride of his heart, he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the wrath of the LORD did not come upon them in the days of Hezekiah.
• [2Ch 34:21, 25 NKJV] 21 "Go, inquire of the LORD for me, and for those who are left in Israel and Judah, concerning the words of the book that is found; for great [is] the wrath of the LORD that is poured out on us, because our fathers have not kept the word of the LORD, to do according to all that is written in this book." ... 25 'because they have forsaken Me and burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke Me to anger with all the works of their hands. Therefore My wrath will be poured out on this place, and not be quenched.' " '
• [2Ch 36:16 NKJV] 16 But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till [there was] no remedy.
• [Ezr 5:12 NKJV] 12 "But because our fathers provoked the God of heaven to wrath, He gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Chaldean, [who] destroyed this temple and carried the people away to Babylon.
• [Ezr 7:23 NKJV] 23 Whatever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it diligently be done for the house of the God of heaven. For why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and his sons?
• [Ezr 8:22 NKJV] 22 For I was ashamed to request of the king an escort of soldiers and horsemen to help us against the enemy on the road, because we had spoken to the king, saying, "The hand of our God [is] upon all those for good who seek Him, but His power and His wrath [are] against all those who forsake Him."
• [Ezr 10:14 NKJV] 14 "Please, let the leaders of our entire assembly stand; and let all those in our cities who have taken pagan wives come at appointed times, together with the elders and judges of their cities, until the fierce wrath of our God is turned away from us in this matter."
• [Neh 13:18 NKJV] 18 "Did not your fathers do thus, and did not our God bring all this disaster on us and on this city? Yet you bring added wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath."
• [Job 14:13 NKJV] 13 "Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
• [Job 16:9 NKJV] 9 He tears [me] in His wrath, and hates me; He gnashes at me with His teeth; My adversary sharpens His gaze on me.
• [Job 19:11, 29 NKJV] 11 He has also kindled His wrath against me, And He counts me as [one of] His enemies. ... 29 Be afraid of the sword for yourselves; For wrath [brings] the punishment of the sword, That you may know [there is] a judgment."
• [Job 20:23, 28 NKJV] 23 [When] he is about to fill his stomach, [God] will cast on him the fury of His wrath, And will rain [it] on him while he is eating. ... 28 The increase of his house will depart, [And his goods] will flow away in the day of His wrath.
• [Job 21:20, 30 NKJV] 20 Let his eyes see his destruction, And let him drink of the wrath of the Almighty. ... 30 For the wicked are reserved for the day of doom; They shall be brought out on the day of wrath.
• [Job 36:13, 18 NKJV] 13 "But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; They do not cry for help when He binds them. ... 18 Because [there is] wrath, [beware] lest He take you away with [one] blow; For a large ransom would not help you avoid [it].
• [Job 40:11 NKJV] 11 Disperse the rage of your wrath; Look on everyone [who is] proud, and humble him.
• [Job 42:7 NKJV] 7 And so it was, after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me [what is] right, as My servant Job [has].
• [Psa 2:5, 12 NKJV] 5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, And distress them in His deep displeasure: ... 12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish [in] the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all those who put their trust in Him.
• [Psa 21:9 NKJV] 9 You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; The LORD shall swallow them up in His wrath, And the fire shall devour them.
• [Psa 38:1 NKJV] 1 A Psalm of David. To bring to remembrance. O LORD, do not rebuke me in Your wrath, Nor chasten me in Your hot displeasure!
• [Psa 58:9 NKJV] 9 Before your pots can feel [the burning] thorns, He shall take them away as with a whirlwind, As in His living and burning wrath.
• [Psa 59:13 NKJV] 13 Consume [them] in wrath, consume [them], That they [may] not [be]; And let them know that God rules in Jacob To the ends of the earth. Selah
• [Psa 78:31, 38, 49 NKJV] 31 The wrath of God came against them, And slew the stoutest of them, And struck down the choice [men] of Israel. ... 38 But He, [being] full of compassion, forgave [their] iniquity, And did not destroy [them]. Yes, many a time He turned His anger away, And did not stir up all His wrath; ... 49 He cast on them the fierceness of His anger, Wrath, indignation, and trouble, By sending angels of destruction [among them].
• [Psa 79:6 NKJV] 6 Pour out Your wrath on the nations that do not know You, And on the kingdoms that do not call on Your name.
• [Psa 85:3 NKJV] 3 You have taken away all Your wrath; You have turned from the fierceness of Your anger.
  [Psa 88:7, 16 NKJV] 7 Your wrath lies heavy upon me, And You have afflicted [me] with all Your waves. Selah ... 16 Your fierce wrath has gone over me; Your terrors have cut me off.
• [Psa 89:46 NKJV] 46 How long, LORD? Will You hide Yourself forever? Will Your wrath burn like fire?
• [Psa 90:7, 9, 11 NKJV] 7 For we have been consumed by Your anger, And by Your wrath we are terrified. ... 9 For all our days have passed away in Your wrath; We finish our years like a sigh. ... 11 Who knows the power of Your anger? For as the fear of You, [so is] Your wrath.
• [Psa 95:11 NKJV] 11 So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "
• [Psa 102:10 NKJV] 10 Because of Your indignation and Your wrath; For You have lifted me up and cast me away.
• [Psa 106:23, 40 NKJV] 23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy [them]. ... 40 Therefore the wrath of the LORD was kindled against His people, So that He abhorred His own inheritance.
• [Psa 110:5 NKJV] 5 The Lord [is] at Your right hand; He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
• [Pro 11:4, 23 NKJV] 4 Riches do not profit in the day of wrath, But righteousness delivers from death. ... 23 The desire of the righteous [is] only good, [But] the expectation of the wicked [is] wrath.

Here are MANY verses on the Wrath of God (and there are many more). God shows, pours and inflicts His wrath on sin and evil doers. God “turns aside” and relents from His wrath for those that obey or turn from their wickedness.

What NO VERSE EVER describes is any TRANSFER of wrath.
However, it is without any evidence that you ask me to reject the weight of all these scriptural examples of wrath and embrace your “logic” that God suddenly chose to enact the greatest transfer of WRATH in the history of creation. I am not demanding an exact phrase, I am requesting SOME EVIDENCE that is not 100% human speculation or simply a misreading of what the scripture is clearly saying.

There is zero evidence in scripture where wrath ever falls upon the righteous and it always falls on the wicked who reject God, not on those who love God and are in an everlasting relationship with Him. And it especially cannot fall on God from God. Talk about an oxymoron. I just shake my head at such unbiblical reasoning that the Father was angry at the Son, not loving Him and pouring His wrath upon Him. A divided Godhead, disunity, disfunction etc….

 

[Joe]

View attachment 403

It was God's love for us, and our Lord's love for us that nailed Him there.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends."

God Bless

 

[Joe]

Jesus gave up more than a weekend to pay for my sins.

Your comment is a strawman. No one ever implied or said anything close that resembles your comment.

I find denial of PSA blasphemous.

I pray one day that your mind will be opened and that you understand the truth that God did not have to vent anger upon His Son to forgive our sins.

Do you need to vent anger upon someone else to forgive the person you love who wronged you? I would hope not. So why would you place that characterization upon our Father? He is not like that in anyway.

"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

So if the above is true, how can PSA be true? PSA has the Father doing the opposite by the Father placing the wickedness of the wicked upon the righteous, and placing the righteousness of the righteous upon the wicked?

The biblical truth is, the Righteous One died for the wicked so that any of the wicked who believed in Him would be forgiven, and by their faith in the Righteous One would "receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness". The wicked receive the forgiveness of sins by faith in what the Righteous One did to purchase them with His own holy and blameless life.

God Bless

 

[civic]

I find denial of PSA blasphemous.

I find it blasphemous and an assault on Gods Good and Loving nature within the Tri-Unity of God. Therefore, PSA is an assault upon the very character and nature of God.

"Perichoresis is the fellowship of three co-equal Persons perfectly embraced in love and harmony and expressing an intimacy that no one can humanly comprehend. The Father sends the Son (John 3:16), and the Spirit proceeds from the Father and was sent by the Son (John 15:26)—another example of perichoresis, with the result that God’s people are blessed.

There is nothing that separates the Persons of the Trinity or interrupts the mysterious interchange of perichoresis. It can be imagined as a Venn diagram showing three circles intersecting in the center with each circle intersecting the others perfectly and multi-dimensionally, as they rotate about a common center of divine love."

What is perichoresis? | GotQuestions.org

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Your comment is a strawman. No one ever implied or said anything close that resembles your comment.

I pray one day that your mind will be opened and that you understand the truth that God did not have to vent anger upon His Son to forgive our sins.

Do you need to vent anger upon someone else to forgive the person you love who wronged you? I would hope not. So why would you place that characterization upon our Father? He is not like that in anyway.

"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

So if the above is true, how can PSA be true? PSA has the Father doing the opposite by the Father placing the wickedness of the wicked upon the righteous, and placing the righteousness of the righteous upon the wicked?

The biblical truth is, the Righteous One died for the wicked so that any of the wicked who believed in Him would be forgiven, and by their faith in the Righteous One would "receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness". The wicked receive the forgiveness of sins by faith in what the Righteous One did to purchase them with His own holy and blameless life.

God Bless

Great biblical comparison/analogy on the truth above Joe, thanks !

As you and I both know doctrine can be blinding to the truth. We defend our doctrines we have been taught and hold them on an equal level and sometimes above scripture. We hold them as the litmus test of truth when in fact they can be the exact opposite of the truth.

If the numerous amounts of denominations and religious beliefs based upon the bible don't shout that is self-evident I don't know what does. This fact alone should make everyone to be open to correction and that they might be wrong with some or even many of their beliefs.

 

[Studyman]

There is zero evidence in scripture where wrath ever falls upon the righteous and it always falls on the wicked who reject God, not on those who love God and are in an everlasting relationship with Him. And it especially cannot fall on God from God. Talk about an oxymoron. I just shake my head at such unbiblical reasoning that the Father was angry at the Son, not loving Him and pouring His wrath upon Him. A divided Godhead, disunity, disfunction etc….

But Civic,

Please consider for a minute the world God placed you and I and His own Son in.

Please read Gen. 3: 14-19. "Unto the woman (Bride) he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Is this not talking about the Body of Christ, the "rebirth".

Please read Duet. 28.

Please consider Duet. 4 including verse 15. This world we live in, is a world of God's Wrath. "Seeing you shall not see, Hearing, you shall not hear." WE are surrounded by preachers of dozens of different religious sects and businesses who, "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate", same world as Jesus, same as Stephen, same as David.

Read Hebrews 11:33-38. Our life is a vapor, here one minute, gone another. We have been offered an incredible gift, as shown us in Duet. 4:15. Consider what God has actually said.

Is. 54: 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

We have been scattered among the heathen, brought back into Egypt because of "our sins", as God promised in His Wrath.

"And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you."

But if from there, we repent and turn to God with all our heart, and not just our lips, we shall eat of the good of the land of promise. "If we continue in HIS Goodness, otherwise we shall be cut off.

Jesus, as flesh and blood, was subject to the consequences of the same wrath, just as other Prophets God sent into this world were.

Ps. 14: 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. 6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

Also, please consider the Words of the Christ of the Bible.

John 17: 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

And in closing, please consider the description of those men of Faith God gave us as examples in Heb. 11:32-38. Examples none of these men had.

I don't believe God directed His wrath towards Jesus. But the things that happened to Jesus were a direct result of God's Wrath, as it is written, in my view.

 

[civic]

But Civic,

Please consider for a minute the world God placed you and I and His own Son in.

Please read Gen. 3: 14-19. "Unto the woman (Bride) he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Is this not talking about the Body of Christ, the "rebirth".

Please read Duet. 28.

Please consider Duet. 4 including verse 15. This world we live in, is a world of God's Wrath. "Seeing you shall not see, Hearing, you shall not hear." WE are surrounded by preachers of dozens of different religious sects and businesses who, "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate", same world as Jesus, same as Stephen, same as David.

Read Hebrews 11:33-38. Our life is a vapor, here one minute, gone another. We have been offered an incredible gift, as shown us in Duet. 4:15. Consider what God has actually said.

Is. 54: 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

We have been scattered among the heathen, brought back into Egypt because of "our sins", as God promised in His Wrath.

"And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you."

But if from there, we repent and turn to God with all our heart, and not just our lips, we shall eat of the good of the land of promise. "If we continue in HIS Goodness, otherwise we shall be cut off.

Jesus, as flesh and blood, was subject to the consequences of the same wrath, just as other Prophets God sent into this world were.

Ps. 14: 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. 6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

Also, please consider the Words of the Christ of the Bible.

John 17: 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

And in closing, please consider the description of those men of Faith God gave us as examples in Heb. 11:32-38. Examples none of these men had.

I don't believe God directed His wrath towards Jesus. But the things that happened to Jesus were a direct result of God's Wrath, as it is written, in my view.

satan and this fallen world which includes suffering, persecution and hatred are a result of sin that brought forth death, that is not wrath but a result or consequence of sin. The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy and he was a murderer from the beginning and the father of lies- there is no truth in him. So living in a fallen world is not Gods wrath- Gods wrath is permanent destruction and separation from Him for all eternity. The flood was His wrath/Judgement upon this world and only Noah and his family were protected and excluded from the wrath/Judgement upon the entire world. The same happens in Revelation when God pours out His wrath/Judgement upon this entire world which will destroy all the enemies of God. Gods wrath falls upon the wicked, the haters of God, the reprobates, the idolators and never upon the Righteous, the disciples of Jesus, the saved, redeemed and holy ones of God.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

WRATH

The “wrath of God” comes to the fore in the gospel as the equivalent to God’s judgment and the antithesis of salvation and life (John 3:36). Rom 1:18 even states that God’s wrath is revealed in the present (cf. Eph 2:3), but the outpouring of his anger will take place in the future (Rom 2:5). The death of Christ provides a “propitiation,” a sacrifice that turns away God’s wrath both presently (Rom 3:25; 5:9; cf. 1 John 2:2; 4:10) and in the eschaton (cf. 1 Thess 1:10). Revelation in particular focuses on God’s anger against rebellious humanity (e.g., Rev 14:10).Eerdmans Dictionary

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness!' (Rom 1:18) The objects of God's anger or wrath are the ungodly, whom he has declared he will punish. His wrath is sometimes manifested in this life, and that in an awful degree, as we see in the case of the old world, of Sodom and Gomorrah, the plagues of Egypt, the punishment and captivity of the Jews, and the many striking judgments on nations and individuals. But a still more awful punishment awaits the impenitent in the world to come, for the wicked, it is said, shall go away into everlasting punishment (Matt 25:46), where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched (see Rom 2:8,9). McClintock and Strong Encyclopedia

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

I found a good online discussion below on Jesus, God and wrath.

The word ‘wrath’ describes God’s retributive justice, which consists of nothing more (and nothing less) than God justly dispensing the consequences that sin deserves.

As J.I. Packer described it: ‘“God’s wrath in the Bible is never the capricious, self-indulgent, irritable, morally ignoble thing that human anger so often is. It is, instead, a right and necessary reaction to objective moral evil”

My main concern is that Ian’s summary of the doctrine of ‘penal substitution’ is inadequate when he writes: that Jesus died in our place, being punished by God for our sins, and so satisfying God’s wrath

Yet, Jesus being ‘punished by God for our sins’ is not what is meant by penal substitution.

Instead, the doctrine of penal substitution states that ‘God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it. It states that God gave himself in the person of his Son, Jesus Christ, to suffer the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for our sin.’

Now, God giving himself in the person of Son, Jesus Christ, to suffer does not connote disparity of action.

As J.I. Packer puts it: Propitiation is the work of God Himself. In paganism, man propitiates his gods. In Christianity, God propitiates His own wrath by His own action. God presented Jesus Christ, says Paul, to be a propitiation (Romans 3:21-26). He sent His Son, says John, to be the propitiation for our sins (1 John 4:10). It wasn’t man, nor was it Christ, who took the initiative. The Bible insists that it was God Himself who took the initiative in quenching His own wrath.

So, penal substitution does not mean that Jesus, through the cross, propitiated God’s wrath.

Also, in Rom. 1, St. Paul repeatedly describes the outworking of wrath as simply being handed over to ‘do as we please’ in the custody of our own desires.

The wrath of God is revealed through God neither directly nor immediately contesting mankind’s assertion of moral independence from God with its eventual loss of our God-wrought pangs of conscience.

Conversely, the grace of God is revealed through the experience in response to the gospel of acknowledging our obligation to God as His creation and our return to Him, through Christ, as our only means of release (redemption) from the consequences of that unfulfilled and violated obligation.

When it is qualified by the apostle in this way, it’s hard to understand why any Christians would have a problem with accepting the validity of declaring that divine wrath was satisfied through the cross. https://www.psephizo.com/biblical-studies/did-jesus-die-to-satisfy-gods-wrath/

Will Jones
April 17, 2017 at 8:24 pm

Hi David

The real issue here, at least as far as I’m concerned, isn’t negative connotations of the word wrath. I have no problem with the word wrath or the concept of it applied to God. It is very biblical. The problem is the word satisfaction. That indicates a specific way in which it is understood that God’s wrath is taken away from the believer. Satisfaction is not biblical.

The issue also is not the word or concept of propitiation. That just means to take away wrath, and scripture is clear that Jesus’ death was a sacrifice of atonement (or propitiation) which took away God’s wrath from the believer. Again, the issue is the word and concept of satisfaction, which is not found in the Bible, and is used to imply a particular understanding of how God’s wrath is taken away.

That understanding is that what was happening on the cross is that God was pouring out his wrath on Jesus in order to satisfy it, or quench it, or assuage it – the idea being that in order to take it away it must cause the requisite amount of suffering to someone. I take your point about the someone being God himself. But the point still remains that the underlying idea is that in order not to punish human beings God must satisfy or quench his wrath on himself by causing himself the requisite amount of suffering.

You say: ‘Jesus being ‘punished by God for our sins’ is not what is meant by penal substitution. Instead, the doctrine of penal substitution states that ‘God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it. It states that God gave himself in the person of his Son, Jesus Christ, to suffer the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for our sin.’’ But whichever way you cut it that still says: ‘God gave…Jesus Christ, to suffer the…punishment…due to fallen humanity.’ It still says on the cross Jesus (who is God) was being punished by God (i.e. himself) in order to satisfy God’s wrath by enduring the requisite amount of suffering.

Why do some Christians have a problem with this? The most important reason is that it is not biblical. The Bible nowhere says that Jesus was being punished by God on the cross, or receiving a penalty. It nowhere says that he was suffering under God’s wrath. It nowhere says he was satisfying anything, or quenching anything. He was just presented by God as a sacrifice of atonement or a redemption by his blood. In these images there is no suggestion of any punishment or wrath or satisfaction of wrath. You quote Packer saying: ‘The Bible insists that it was God Himself who took the initiative in quenching His own wrath.’ But of course the Bible insists no such thing, because it does not use the word quench in connection with Jesus’ death. These ideas are imposed on the text, they are not actually there in the words themselves.

But why make a fuss about it? Basically because the image of God that it presents, as well as being unbiblical, is just so odd. It supposes the divine wrath on sin to be something which must cause a certain amount of suffering in order to be satisfied or quenched or assuaged – so that God must inflict it on himself if he is to spare us. But there is no biblical reason at all to suppose this to be the case. Sacrifices of atonement are offerings presented in lieu of punishment, not as a transfer of punishment. No one supposes God to be transferring his wrath to some grain and causing it to suffer! When the Bible says Jesus was a sacrifice of atonement it in no way says or implies that he was being punished. He was an offering in lieu of punishment, not a conduit for the punishment or wrath.

So wrath fine. Propitiation fine. But Jesus being punished and satisfying God’s wrath? No. Not biblical. Not warranted. Not necessary. Not right.

Hi David

Given how important this doctrine is said to be, it would be nice if it was mentioned at least once in the Bible! But I do allow that doctrines can be implied. I just don’t think this is.

Your explanation of the significance of blood in sacrifices is very helpful. But your conclusion doesn’t follow from it. There simply is no suggestion in OT sacrifices that the shedding of blood is due to a transfer of wrath or punishment. Ian makes this point in the post and cites a relevant scholar. Sacrifices of atonement and propitiation did not carry connotations of punishment or wrath transfer. The association is in the mind of some readers but not in scripture.

Christ became a curse for us by dying on the cross. He suffered death, which was the curse of Adam, in order to provide in himself the means, through union with him, of being delivered from that curse and living the glorious life of the new creation. This is what Paul is setting out in Romans 5-6. I don’t see what it has to do with wrath transfer – as I’ve pointed out, when Paul mentions wrath in 5:9 he omits to mention that it has been satisfied in Jesus’ death.

The striking the shepherd prophecy isn’t an image of salvation since it is about the sheep scattering. The point Jesus is making in using it is “This very night you will all fall away on account of me”. And note that in the original God then turns his hand against the ‘little ones’ themselves so it’s certainly not punishment or wrath transfer. I can’t pretend to understand its full meaning for Jesus here, but I also can’t see how it helps your case. I feel like you’re clutching at straws if this is the best scripture you have to support wrath satisfaction theory.

Remember: this was not an idea found in the early church or church fathers. It’s a late innovation and unwarranted by scripture. Time to put it to rest!

Hi Phil

Was wondering where you’d got to!

Ian hasn’t participated in this thread so far so you may not get a response to your question, but who knows…

For my part I can re-affirm that I accept those claims.

Perhaps it would help if I set out my chief objections to the idea of punishment transfer and wrath satisfaction.

I am objecting to one thing and one thing only: the idea that in order to spare us punishment God has been obliged, by justice, to punish himself in the person of his Son. I take this to be equivalent to the idea that God has satisfied his wrath or anger by pouring it out on his Son (i.e. on himself). I call this punishment transfer or wrath satisfaction theory, and take the two to be equivalent. This is what I understand to be the penal substitutionary atonement (PSA) theory which defenders are seeking to uphold.

I am not objecting to the idea that humanity is subject to God’s wrath and punishment, and that Jesus had to die in order to shed his blood in a sacrifice of atonement or redemption which would take away God’s wrath from those who are, by faith, found in Christ Jesus. This I take to be incontrovertible. I also would not object to the claim that in doing this Christ provided satisfaction for sin (understood in terms of a satisfactory sin offering) or assuaged God’s wrath (understood in terms of taking it away). I object only to the idea that this was achieved by God punishing Jesus by transferring our punishment to him, and thereby satisfying his wrath by pouring it out on him.

I object to this idea on moral grounds and on scriptural grounds.

On moral grounds I object that it is any satisfaction of justice for God to punish himself in the Person of his Son. I object to the idea that justice can ever be satisfied by the punishment of the innocent, even if willing, or the punishment of oneself in place of the guilty. This is not a model of justice that we would endorse for society, and it is not a concept of justice that we can recognise for God. We would not deem it just to punish willing and innocent people instead of the guilty, and so cannot recognise it as justice when God does it to himself. This is my moral objection: that punishing oneself, or the innocent, in place of the guilty cannot satisfy justice.

By contrast, the idea of a sacrifice of atonement in place of punishment, as used in the Law, is morally unproblematic. There is no moral difficulty in the idea that a suitable sacrifice (or payment, to use redemption imagery) may, particularly when accompanied by repentance and pledge of amendment of life, remove the guilt of an offence and the need for punishment. We use such ideas in our legal system, for example, when we allow sentences to be commuted into fines or replace prosecutions with requirements to attend educational courses. Thus there are no similar moral objections to the idea of a sacrifice of atonement, or sin offering, or redemption.

On scriptural grounds I object that the idea that Jesus is being punished by God or is subject to God’s wrath is not found in the New Testament. The only place where it is stated that a messianic figure will be punished is in the prophecy in Isaiah 53. In the light of that statement not being repeated in the New Testament, I suggest that it is to be understood, like some other aspects of that prophecy, poetically, as a poetic way of describing a sin offering or sacrifice of atonement (terms the NT does use). Just as Jesus did not literally carry our diseases or suffer with infirmity to do so, neither was he literally punished by God; it is a figure of speech, like saying that some hardship was punishing. The reality, presented clearly in the New Testament, and drawing on prophetic imagery from both law and prophets, is that God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement, a redemption by his blood. Thus while he willed him to die, and was the agent of it (he ‘struck’ the shepherd, gave him the ‘cup’), he was not punishing him or pouring out his wrath on him in order to satisfy it. He was putting him forward as a sacrifice of atonement, or sin offering, or redemption.

In terms of why God is pleased to accept Christ’s sacrifice as a sin offering for the sins of the world, I would say that that is up to him, though he has made it clear that a blood sacrifice is required, since blood signifies life. However, I imagine it has a lot to do with the fact that in making this sacrifice Christ also brought about the undoing of the curse under which God has placed humanity, by fulfilling the law and overcoming death, and thereby inaugurating the new creation.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Sinclair Ferguson the Reformed Theologian says which I agree :

“Strictly speaking, wrath is not an attribute of God. It would be more appropriate to say that the wrath of God is the manifestation of the holiness of God in the context of the sinfulness of man. I believe Scripture tells us that God has only one unchanging attitude toward humanity. That one attitude is love. To know God is to know love. All of his other attributes flow from love.”

DA Carson agrees with Gods wrath not an attribute of God. Its a response to sin.

God is not wrath, God is Love. Desiring God below :


The Doctrine of the Wrath of God

Don Carson explains why you can't speak of God's wrath the same way you speak of his love.

www.desiringgod.org

 

[Studyman]

satan and this fallen world which includes suffering, persecution and hatred are a result of sin that brought forth death, that is not wrath but a result or consequence of sin. The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy and he was a murderer from the beginning and the father of lies- there is no truth in him. So living in a fallen world is not Gods wrath- Gods wrath is permanent destruction and separation from Him for all eternity. The flood was His wrath/Judgement upon this world and only Noah and his family were protected and excluded from the wrath/Judgement upon the entire world. The same happens in Revelation when God pours out His wrath/Judgement upon this entire world which will destroy all the enemies of God. Gods wrath falls upon the wicked, the haters of God, the reprobates, the idolators and never upon the Righteous, the disciples of Jesus, the saved, redeemed and holy ones of God.

hope this helps !!!

I was hoping you might actually address the Scriptures I referenced. Including the Word's God Himself said to us.

And the Judgment of God is made from the foundation of the world, even though it isn't revealed to us individually until after the dead are resurrected.

But I understand the power of religious tradition.

Thanks for the reply just the same.

 

[civic]

But Civic,

Please consider for a minute the world God placed you and I and His own Son in.

Please read Gen. 3: 14-19. "Unto the woman (Bride) he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Is this not talking about the Body of Christ, the "rebirth".

Please read Duet. 28.

Please consider Duet. 4 including verse 15. This world we live in, is a world of God's Wrath. "Seeing you shall not see, Hearing, you shall not hear." WE are surrounded by preachers of dozens of different religious sects and businesses who, "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate", same world as Jesus, same as Stephen, same as David.

Read Hebrews 11:33-38. Our life is a vapor, here one minute, gone another. We have been offered an incredible gift, as shown us in Duet. 4:15. Consider what God has actually said.

Is. 54: 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

We have been scattered among the heathen, brought back into Egypt because of "our sins", as God promised in His Wrath.

"And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you."

But if from there, we repent and turn to God with all our heart, and not just our lips, we shall eat of the good of the land of promise. "If we continue in HIS Goodness, otherwise we shall be cut off.

Jesus, as flesh and blood, was subject to the consequences of the same wrath, just as other Prophets God sent into this world were.

Ps. 14: 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. 6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

Also, please consider the Words of the Christ of the Bible.

John 17: 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

And in closing, please consider the description of those men of Faith God gave us as examples in Heb. 11:32-38. Examples none of these men had.

I don't believe God directed His wrath towards Jesus. But the things that happened to Jesus were a direct result of God's Wrath, as it is written, in my view.

Can you point me to any of the above scriptures that mentioned " wrath " and I will address them, not your assumptions/presuppositions that they mean wrath.

 

[Studyman]

Sinclair Ferguson the Reformed Theologian says which I agree :

“Strictly speaking, wrath is not an attribute of God. It would be more appropriate to say that the wrath of God is the manifestation of the holiness of God in the context of the sinfulness of man. I believe Scripture tells us that God has only one unchanging attitude toward humanity. That one attitude is love. To know God is to know love. All of his other attributes flow from love.”

DA Carson agrees with Gods wrath not an attribute of God. Its a response to sin.

God is not wrath, God is Love. Desiring God below :


The Doctrine of the Wrath of God

Don Carson explains why you can't speak of God's wrath the same way you speak of his love.

www.desiringgod.org

In a minute, I could find another self-proclaimed "theologian" who would promote a completely different philosophy. And there would be "many" who agrees with them as well.

I know it is an ancient, and very popular religious tradition to seek out other men to define God for us, from the "many" who come in Christ's Name, that we have to pick from. I am simply promoting the belief that God is able to reveal Himself to men through His Word, so we don't have to take the risk Jesus warned us about, placing our faith in the religious opinions of men, simply because they call Jesus "Lord, Lord". I believe it is worth discerning.

Duet. 16: 14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you; 15 (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger (Wrath) of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.

Duet. 4: 24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. 25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:(Wrath) 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

 

[civic]

In a minute, I could find another self-proclaimed "theologian" who would promote a completely different philosophy. And there would be "many" who agrees with them as well.

I know it is an ancient, and very popular religious tradition to seek out other men to define God for us, from the "many" who come in Christ's Name, that we have to pick from. I am simply promoting the belief that God is able to reveal Himself to men through His Word, so we don't have to take the risk Jesus warned us about, placing our faith in the religious opinions of men, simply because they call Jesus "Lord, Lord". I believe it is worth discerning.

Duet. 16: 14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you; 15 (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger (Wrath) of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.

Duet. 4: 24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. 25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:(Wrath) 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

Yes upon the reprobate, idolators, God haters is where His wrath, indignation, anger and Judgement is upon, not the Righteous and followers of the True God.

You are making my point fpr me, keep on posting scriptures on wrath.

 

[e v e]

I find it blasphemous and an assault on Gods Good and Loving nature within the Tri-Unity of God. Therefore, PSA is an assault upon the very character and nature of God.

"Perichoresis is the fellowship of three co-equal Persons perfectly embraced in love and harmony and expressing an intimacy that no one can humanly comprehend. The Father sends the Son (John 3:16), and the Spirit proceeds from the Father and was sent by the Son (John 15:26)—another example of perichoresis, with the result that God’s people are blessed.

There is nothing that separates the Persons of the Trinity or interrupts the mysterious interchange of perichoresis. It can be imagined as a Venn diagram showing three circles intersecting in the center with each circle intersecting the others perfectly and multi-dimensionally, as they rotate about a common center of divine love."

What is perichoresis? | GotQuestions.org

hope this helps !!!

I like that way to phrase it, as tri-unity

 

[civic]

I like that way to phrase it, as tri-unity

TY sister

 

[Studyman]

Can you point me to any of the above scriptures that mentioned " wrath " and I will address them, not your assumptions/presuppositions that they mean wrath.

Gen. 3: 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

I assume God "Cursed the ground", or as it is written in another place, "Cursed the Land" because of His Anger/Wrath in that Adam betrayed Him. And so because of Adam's betrayal, God cursed the land.

Gen. 5: 28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son: 29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

Ex. 29: 24 Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus "unto this land"? what meaneth the heat of this great anger? 25 Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt: 26 For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them: 27 And the "anger" of the LORD was kindled "against this land", to bring upon it (The Land) all the curses that are written in this book: 28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.

But what does God also say for those who have been cast into this Land of God's Wrath.

Duet. 4: 25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger: 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. 27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. 28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

And so given these and other Scriptures, I have come to believe that this world God placed me in, a World that hates God, rejects His Judgments, Statutes and commandments, have created images of God in the Likeness of man, is a Land cursed by God "in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation", and when the Scriptures teach that of the Christ "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted", this means He too, was placed into the "Cursed Land".


Is. 54: 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Now this is my understanding, I didn't get this understanding from a sermon or another Philosopher of this world. I might be wrong about this understanding, but it comes from study and Faith, not from this world's religious sects, or philosophers.