Where's the wrath??
- Thread starter Joe
- Start date
atpollard
Well-known member
- Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him … was “him” the Passover Lamb of God? Was the OT Passover Lamb a typology of “him”?
- He hath put him to suffering … was “him” the Passover Lamb of God? Was the OT Passover Lamb a typology of “him”?
- I would go on, but I don’t speak Hebrew, so the words are foreign to me. I could look up another translation, but I think the point has been made. The OT typology points to the NT reality and Isaiah 53:10 is a prophecy about the NT reality that probably never uses the word “wrath” applied from God the Father towards God the Son. Suffering, yes. Offering, yes. Wrath, no. (My criticism is both specific and scriptural … God never said it, so I will not accept it as truth when what God did say contradicts “wrath”.)
civic
Well-known member
I don’t think anyone on this forum is fluent in the original languages.
Johann
Well-known member
I have to smile--
דּכא
dâkâ'
daw-kaw'
A primitive root (compare H1794) to crumble; transitively to bruise (literally or figuratively): - beat to pieces, break (in pieces), bruise, contrite, crush, destroy, humble, oppress, smite.
LXX Related Word(s)
G5011 tapeinos
G5014 tapeinosis
G3642 oligopsuchos
G4937 sun tribo
G91 adikeo
G818 atimazo
G2507 kath aireo
G3817 paio
G5013 tapeinoo
G2559 kakoo
G5013 tapeinoo
BDB Definition:
1) to crush, be crushed, be contrite, be broken
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to be crushed
1a2) to be contrite (figuratively)
1b) (Piel) to crush
1c) (Pual)
1c1) to be crushed, be shattered
1c2) to be made contrite
1d) (Hithpael) to allow oneself to be crushed
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root (compare H1794)
More in OTW: H40427
Out of all the verbs you just pick and choose one verb-"humble"
AHLB
Strongs #1792: AHLB#: 1080-E (V)
1080) Kd% (Kd% DK) ac: Crush co: Mortar ab: ?: The pictograph d is a door representing the idea of moving back and forth. The k is a picture of the palm of the hand representing a bowl from its shape. Combined these pictures mean "the moving back and forth in a cup". Seeds are placed in a stone mortar, a stone cup, the stone pestle is moved around the cup to crush the seeds into a powder.
A) Kd% (Kd% DK) ac: Crush co: Mortar ab: ?
Nm) Kd% (Kd% DK) - I. Crush: II. Small: Something that is crushed thin or into smaller pieces. [df: qd] [freq. 18] |kjv: oppressed, afflicted| {str: 1790, 1851}
fm) Ikd% (Ikd% D-KY) - Wave: Wave A crushing of the surf. [freq. 1] |kjv: wave| {str: 1796}
B) Kkd% (Kkd% DKK) ac: ? co: Powder ab: ?: The fine dust created in the mortar by crushing something.
V) Kkd% (Kkd% D-KK) - Small: To crush or beat something into small pieces. [Hebrew and Aramaic] [df: qqd] [freq. 23] (vf: Paal, Hiphil, Hophal) |kjv: beat small, powder, stamp, bruise, small, dust, beat in pieces, break in pieces| {str: 1854, 1855}
E) Akd% (Akd% DKA) ac: Break co: ? ab: ?
V) Akd% (Akd% D-KA) - Break: To break something by beating it. [freq. 18] (vf: Niphal, Hitpael, Pual, Piel) |kjv: break, break in pieces, crush, bruise, destroy| {str: 1792}
Nm) Akd% (Akd% D-KA) - Broken: Something that is broken into pieces. [freq. 3] |kjv: contrite, destruction| {str: 1793}
F) Kde% (Kde% HDK) ac: Trample co: ? ab: ?: Walking over something to trample on it as with a pestle in a mortar.
V) Kde% (Kde% H-DK) - Trample: [freq. 1] (vf: Paal) |kjv: tread down| {str: 1915}
H) Ekd% (Ekd% DKH) ac: ? co: Bruise ab: ?: Something that is bruised by beating it.
V) Ekd% (Ekd% D-KH) - Bruise: [freq. 5] (vf: Paal, Niphal, Piel) |kjv: break, contrite, crouch| {str: 1794}
Nf1) Ekd% (Ekd% D-KH) - Bruised: [freq. 1] |kjv: wounded| {str: 1795}
J) Kfd% (Kfd% DWK) ac: Beat co: Mortar ab: ?: A beating as with a mortar in a pestle.
V) Kfd% (Kfd% DWK) - Beat: [Hebrew and Aramaic] [df: qwd] [freq. 2] (vf: Paal) |kjv: beat, break into pieces| {str: 1743, 1751}
kf1) Ekfdm% (Ekfdm% M-DW-KH) - Mor [freq. 1] |kjv: mortar| {str: 4085}
M) Kid% (Kid% DYK) ac: Beat co: Siege works ab: ?
Nm) Kid% (Kid% DYK) - Siege works: Engines of war constructed next to a city wall for the purpose of battering it into pieces to allow entry into the city. [df: qyd] [freq. 6] |kjv: fort| {str: 1785}
Cannot agree with you. And interestingly-Michael Brown don't agree with you either.
civic
Well-known member
The Bible agrees with me since the Fathers wrath was never on the Son. My interpretation is the biblical narrative and 100% supports the Tri- Unity of God, not the disunity and disfunction of the god of paganism. Gods love not anger/ wrath was with Christ.
When one is wrong about who God is they are wrong in many other areas of Theology and doctrine.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
I ran this by our men’s discipleship group this morning ( 4 of us ) and will be teaching on this in our large men’s Thursday morning discipleship group next week. 
. Our 3 pastors will be there so I will let the chips fall where they will.
There are so many misconceptions on sin, wrath , Jesus, Trinity and the Atonement.
. Our 3 pastors will be there so I will let the chips fall where they will. There are so many misconceptions on sin, wrath , Jesus, Trinity and the Atonement.
Johann
Well-known member
… but the second half that built upon the OT foundation, did.
Isaiah 53 with Dr. Michael L. Brown
Dr. James White | Alpha and Omega Ministries
www.sermonaudio.com
civic
Well-known member
Isaiah 53, Psalm 22- The Nature of God in the Atonement
www.mccafferty1.site
berean-apologetics.boards.net
Brean Apologetics Ministry
The Tri-Unity of God in the Atonement and Jesus last words | Berean-Apologetics
View Update Here> There are many misconceptions and views on the atonement. I will try and clear up some of those in this thread espe
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Johann
Well-known member
View attachment 402
Isaiah 53, Psalm 22- The Nature of God in the Atonement
Brean Apologetics Ministry
The Tri-Unity of God in the Atonement and Jesus last words | Berean-Apologetics
View Update Here> There are many misconceptions and views on the atonement. I will try and clear up some of those in this thread espe
civic
Well-known member
I’m familiar with Dr MacArthurs Masters seminary. I was under his ministry for the past 4 decades. I know his theology inside out as one of his former disciples/ followers. I have all his books, materials and use to believe exactly like him doctrinally.
hope this helps !!!
Johann
Well-known member
William D. Barrick
Professor of Old Testament
civic
Well-known member
I know who he is
Diserner
Well-known member
I ran this by our men’s discipleship group this morning ( 4 of us ) and will be teaching on this in our large men’s Thursday morning discipleship group next week.
There are so many misconceptions on sin, wrath , Jesus, Trinity and the Atonement.
If I knew I literally preached false doctrine to people for 20 years, that requires a very deep degree of repentance.
I'd be a little more slow and cautious in case I was responsible for doing that all over again.
civic
Well-known member
One of the pastors and 2 elders are in our Saturday morning group. I got their blessings this morning to talk about it and I laid out my talking points. I also let our senior pastor know the topic this past Thursday and he has already read my thesis paper. So he knows my beliefs and that I came out of Calvinism. I have plenty of accountability partners at my church.
PS I’m not a Lone Ranger
Diserner
Well-known member
Do you believe in hell, the lake of fire?
Do you believe all have sinned and deserve to go there?
e v e
Well-known member
depends which lines from the scroll you refer to, what context you intend
- the lake of fire will be where go the esaus and satanic entities after the 1000 years
all those who chose the satanic realm and not God...
and do not want Him
- eden is desolated by that evil realm ,
and is a hellish place until the sons
will restore her soon and make eden new
with Christ and rule with Him
- the current earth is
...babylon,
where many are drunk on wine
and which starting soon will
be a total hell during tribulation
God is not a monster sending people to permanent hell (first option) for not understanding,
which not understanding is a situation caused to them by the pastors and 'experts'....
e v e
Well-known member
answered first q. already.
no
His souls do not deserve to go there -
unless they reject Him and choose the satanic realm
yes all sinned.
this fleshbody = sin
and many live for its needs and wants
and will not die to it
though it wars against God
The Lord's sacrificial offering for our sins gained us the forgiveness of our sins. As the Apostle Paul wrote, "as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."
We, "are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." (Rom 3:24-26)
There is no doubt that sin needed put to an end, and that end came when our Lord willing gave up His life explicitly to redeem us by dying on our behalf and rising to give us eternal life. His offering was willed by the Father and our Lord willingly obeyed. We have been redeemed by the blood of God, and God has shown He is righteous by giving His blameless Son as a one time offering for our sins that eternally makes amends for them.
There was zero wrath from the Father upon His Son for our sins.
God Bless
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