civic
Well-known member
Read how the word is translated in other places that I provided.
Where's the wrath??
- Thread starter Joe
- Start date
atpollard
Well-known member
I was just asking on the appearance of a word in the KJV NT and its application to Jesus.
It seemed an obvious omission from his list.
You can look up Expiation if you want, but I do not think that word appears in the KJV Bible ... but I could be wrong.
[I am not disagreeing with the theological discussion ... I would prefer to present scripture BEFORE arguing conclusions. I am merely commenting on the OP word search.]
civic
Well-known member
atpollard
Well-known member
MY CREDENTIALS are probably worse than YOURS!Read how the word is translated in other places that I provided.
I am not prepared to retranslate parts of the OT based on reading a Lexicon.
atpollard
Well-known member
I agree. The OP searched the KJV ... so "apples to apples".
civic
Well-known member
Joe and I completely agree on this topic so I will wait for him to chime in on this topic.
atpollard
Well-known member
Technically, you and I agree on this topic [no wrath on Jesus] ... I am Christus Victor and not PSA.
I just like scripture and good exegesis. [Sola Scriptura]
civic
Well-known member
ditto
civic
Well-known member
Since you like scripture lets show how the OT and NT see it differently
The wrath of God (Isaiah 53)
Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53.
Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering wrath from God.
In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God.
The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25.
Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.
Scripture interprets scripture, precept upon precept. The N.T. completely left out the penal/wrath aspect that many teach. At best its an argument from silence. And at its worst- its unbiblical.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation.
1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom
2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom
3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15 Substitution, Ransom
4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51
5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28
6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11
7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution
8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28- Expiation
hope this helps !!!
1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom
2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom
3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15 Substitution, Ransom
4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51
5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28
6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11
7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution
8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28- Expiation
hope this helps !!!
Diserner
Well-known member
Okay, follow along, this is not rocket science.
1. Sin deserves wrath. Even (most) PSA deniers seem to admit this.
2. Jesus is our substitute. Even (most) PSA deniers seem to admit this.
Step 3 is ... ?
Some weird mental block that refuses to conclude what 1 and 2 dictate?
It is not a natural thing we are dealing with here.
1. Sin deserves wrath. Even (most) PSA deniers seem to admit this.
2. Jesus is our substitute. Even (most) PSA deniers seem to admit this.
Step 3 is ... ?
Some weird mental block that refuses to conclude what 1 and 2 dictate?
It is not a natural thing we are dealing with here.
civic
Well-known member
No the wages of sin is death, not wrath
Johann
Well-known member
"Smitten of God"
It was God's will that Jesus die (cf. Isa. 53:10; John 3:16; Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21). Jesus' trial and death were not accidents or mistakes, but the plan of God (cf. Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:28; 1 Pet. 1:20).
53:5 "pierced. . .crushed" As "bore" and "carried" in Isa. 53:4 were parallel, so too, these verbs.
pierced ‒ BDB 319, KB 320, Poal participle usually by a sword in battle, but not here. The same root means "polluted" for mankind's purification and forgiveness.
crushed ‒ BDB 193, KB 221, Pual participle; this verb is used several times in Isaiah
Isa. 57:15 ‒ Niphal participle, "the heart of the contrite"
Isa. 3:15 ‒ Piel imperfect, "crushing My people"
Isa. 19:10; 53:5 ‒ Pual participle, "to be crushed"
Isa. 53:10 ‒ Piel infinitive construct, "to crush"
It denotes one who is humbled. In this context by YHWH Himself for the greater good of all mankind.
Isa 53:10 Yet YHWHH3068 Conj-w+N-proper-ms Yah·weh וַיהוָ֞ה it pleasedH2654 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms ḥā·p̄êṣ חָפֵ֤ץ to bruise HimH1792 H8763 V-Piel-Inf+3ms dak·kə·’ōw דַּכְּאוֹ֙ He has put [Him] to grief;H2470 H8689 V-Hifil-Perf-3ms he·ḥĕ·lî הֶֽחֱלִ֔י whenH518 Conj ’im- אִם־ You makeH7760 H8799 V-Qal-Imperf-3fs tā·śîm תָּשִׂ֤ים an offering for sin,H817 N-ms ’ā·šām אָשָׁם֙ N1 His soulH5315 N-fsc+3ms nap̄·šōw נַפְשׁ֔וֹ
Isa 53:10 וַיהוָ֞ה H3068 Yah·weh the LORD חָפֵ֤ץ H2654 cha·Fetz Yet it pleased דַּכְּאוֹ֙ H1792 dak·ke·'O to bruise הֶֽחֱלִ֔י H2470 he·che·Li, him he hath put [him] to grief אִם־ H518 'im- If תָּשִׂ֤ים H7760 ta·Sim when thou shalt make אָשָׁם֙ H817 'a·Sham an offering for sin נַפְשׁ֔וֹ H5315 naf·Sho, his soul יִרְאֶ֥ה H7200 yir·'Eh he shall see זֶ֖רַע H2233 Ze·ra' [his] seed יַאֲרִ֣יךְ H748 ya·'a·Rich he shall prolong יָמִ֑ים H3117 ya·Mim; [his] days וְחֵ֥פֶץ H2656 ve·Che·fetz and the pleasure יְהוָ֖ה H3068 Yah·weh of the LORD בְּיָד֥וֹ H3027 be·ya·Do in his hand יִצְלָֽח׃ H6743 yitz·Lach. shall prosper
Ancient Hebrew Lexicon-
דָּכָא
dâkâ’
BDB Definition:
1) to crush, be crushed, be contrite, be broken
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to be crushed
1a2) to be contrite (figuratively)
1b) (Piel) to crush
1c) (Pual)
1c1) to be crushed, be shattered
1c2) to be made contrite
1d) (Hithpael) to allow oneself to be crushed
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root (compare H1794)
Same Word by TWOT Number: 427
Total KJV Occurrences: 18
break, 3
Job_19:2, Psa_94:4-5 (2)
broken, 3
Isa_19:9-10 (3)
crushed, 2
Job_4:19, Job_5:4
beat, 1
Isa_3:15
bruise, 1
Isa_53:10
bruised, 1
Isa_53:5
contrite, 1
Isa_57:15
crush, 1
Lam_3:34
destroy, 1
Job_6:9
destroyed, 1
Job_34:25
humbled, 1
Jer_44:10
oppress, 1
Pro_22:22
smitten, 1
Psa_143:3
V-Piel-Inf+3ms Isa 53:10 Yet YHWHH3068 Conj-w+N-proper-ms Yah·weh וַיהוָ֞ה it pleasedH2654 H8804 V-Qal-Perf-3ms ḥā·p̄êṣ חָפֵ֤ץ to bruise HimH1792 H8763 V-Piel-Inf+3ms dak·kə·’ōw דַּכְּאוֹ֙
This is why I cannot see that Messiah was "humbled" but crushed-strong Hebrew verbs in the Piel
דּכא
dâkâ'
daw-kaw'
A primitive root (compare H1794) to crumble; transitively to bruise (literally or figuratively): - beat to pieces, break (in pieces), bruise, contrite, crush, destroy, humble, oppress, smite.
Ancient Hebrew Lexicon-
Strongs #1792: AHLB#: 1080-E (V)
1080) Kd% (Kd% DK) ac: Crush co: Mortar ab: ?: The pictograph d is a door representing the idea of moving back and forth. The k is a picture of the palm of the hand representing a bowl from its shape. Combined these pictures mean "the moving back and forth in a cup". Seeds are placed in a stone mortar, a stone cup, the stone pestle is moved around the cup to crush the seeds into a powder.
A) Kd% (Kd% DK) ac: Crush co: Mortar ab: ?
Nm) Kd% (Kd% DK) - I. Crush: II. Small: Something that is crushed thin or into smaller pieces. [df: qd] [freq. 18] |kjv: oppressed, afflicted| {str: 1790, 1851}
fm) Ikd% (Ikd% D-KY) - Wave: Wave A crushing of the surf. [freq. 1] |kjv: wave| {str: 1796}
B) Kkd% (Kkd% DKK) ac: ? co: Powder ab: ?: The fine dust created in the mortar by crushing something.
V) Kkd% (Kkd% D-KK) - Small: To crush or beat something into small pieces. [Hebrew and Aramaic] [df: qqd] [freq. 23] (vf: Paal, Hiphil, Hophal) |kjv: beat small, powder, stamp, bruise, small, dust, beat in pieces, break in pieces| {str: 1854, 1855}
E) Akd% (Akd% DKA) ac: Break co: ? ab: ?
V) Akd% (Akd% D-KA) - Break: To break something by beating it. [freq. 18] (vf: Niphal, Hitpael, Pual, Piel) |kjv: break, break in pieces, crush, bruise, destroy| {str: 1792}
Nm) Akd% (Akd% D-KA) - Broken: Something that is broken into pieces. [freq. 3] |kjv: contrite, destruction| {str: 1793}
F) Kde% (Kde% HDK) ac: Trample co: ? ab: ?: Walking over something to trample on it as with a pestle in a mortar.
V) Kde% (Kde% H-DK) - Trample: [freq. 1] (vf: Paal) |kjv: tread down| {str: 1915}
H) Ekd% (Ekd% DKH) ac: ? co: Bruise ab: ?: Something that is bruised by beating it.
V) Ekd% (Ekd% D-KH) - Bruise: [freq. 5] (vf: Paal, Niphal, Piel) |kjv: break, contrite, crouch| {str: 1794}
Nf1) Ekd% (Ekd% D-KH) - Bruised: [freq. 1] |kjv: wounded| {str: 1795}
J) Kfd% (Kfd% DWK) ac: Beat co: Mortar ab: ?: A beating as with a mortar in a pestle.
V) Kfd% (Kfd% DWK) - Beat: [Hebrew and Aramaic] [df: qwd] [freq. 2] (vf: Paal) |kjv: beat, break into pieces| {str: 1743, 1751}
kf1) Ekfdm% (Ekfdm% M-DW-KH) - Mor [freq. 1] |kjv: mortar| {str: 4085}
M) Kid% (Kid% DYK) ac: Beat co: Siege works ab: ?
Nm) Kid% (Kid% DYK) - Siege works: Engines of war constructed next to a city wall for the purpose of battering it into pieces to allow entry into the city. [df: qyd] [freq. 6] |kjv: fort| {str: 1785}
My apologies if this doesn't make any sense brother.
Johann
Well-known member
I don't see how Messiah was "humbled" in the Piel Tense-but crushed-since Messiah already humbled Himself-Read how the word is translated in other places that I provided.
Php 2:8 Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach humbled himself and took the path of shiflut (lowliness), unto mishma'at (obedience 2:12) [cf. BERESHIS 3:17] even unto death [Yn 10:17; MJ 5:8; 12:2], and that, a death on HaEtz [the Tree, DEVARIM 21:23; 27:26; Ga 3:13; Pp 3:18].
Php 2:9 Therefore, also Hashem exalted [YESHAYAH 52:13; 53:12; DANIEL 9:26; 7:14; Ac 2:33; MJ 1:3] Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, and gave to him haShem [Ep 1:21; MJ 1:4] above every name,
Php 2:10 That at haShem of Yehoshua, KOL BERECH (every knee YESHAYAH 45:23) will bow, of beings b'Shomayim and ba'Aretz and mitachat laAretz (in the world below),--
Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the image of a servant, having become in the image of the sons of men
Php 2:8 and being found in form like a man, He humbled Himself, having become obedient until death, even the death of a torture stake.
Php 2:9 For this reason also, YAHWEH highly exalted Him and gave Him a name above every name,
Php 2:10 that at the name of Yahshua "every knee should bow," of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth,
Php 2:11 and "every tongue should confess" that Yahshua Messiah is YAHWEH, (the Son) to the glory of YAHWEH His Father. (Isa. 45:23)
In fashion (schēmati). Locative case of schēma, from echō, to have, to hold. Bengel explains morphē by forma, homoiōma by similitudo, schēma by habitus. Here with schēma the contrast “is between what He is in Himself, and what He appeared in the eyes of men” (Lightfoot).
He humbled himself (etapeinōsen heauton). First aorist active of tapeinoō, old verb from tapeinos. It is a voluntary humiliation on the part of Christ and for this reason Paul is pressing the example of Christ upon the Philippians, this supreme example of renunciation. See Bruce’s masterpiece, The Humiliation of Christ.
Obedient (hupēkoos). Old adjective, giving ear to. See note on Act_7:39; 2Co_2:9.
Unto death (mechri thanatou). “Until death.” See “until blood” (mechris haimatos, Heb_12:4).
Yea, the death of the cross (thanatou de staurou). The bottom rung in the ladder from the Throne of God. Jesus came all the way down to the most despised death of all, a condemned criminal on the accursed cross.
RWS.
Diserner
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
For the wicked who rebel against God ,hate Him and reject His provision for their sins provided for them through the Atonement.
hope this helps !!!
Diserner
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
For them its both the second death- eternal death and permanent wrath.
Rockson
Well-known member
I think all might disagree with my position on this but here goes. I trust you all will still consider me a dear beloved brother in the Lord regardless lol.
Do I feel it's necessary to think that God the Father (and Spirit) actually poured out WRATH on Jesus? No I don't. God did provide a type of Jesus dying as the supreme sacrifice with Abraham and Issac. We've all heard the comparison. As Abraham had to sacrifice his son so God so loving the world did the same. Only difference......Jesus had to die. Now did Abraham have these fierce angry feelings towards his son? No. It was the hardest thing he ever could do in carrying out what God said. So God the Father would have less LOVE for his son then Abraham? Wouldn't think so. Just believing Jesus paid the penalty, death is well and good enough. I see no need to have to assert God the Father was in some way or any way furious at his son.
Here's though is where others might not agree with me. I don't think God cares too much what position one has wrath or merely , penalty.....the main thing is to get people to believe Jesus was their substitute . I'm thinking God would say don't worry about the wrath or penalty issue that is from the standpoint of arguing about it. If people need straightened out that adjustment can take place in the next world. You know it'll all be settled by Jesus
in one moment in heaven when Jesus might say, "Oh and by the way you technically wrong about this" The other will say, "Oh Ok sorry Lord" I think our job is just to get people to believe that Jesus died for their sins and receive him as their Lord. As for me and I know some of my dear friends may not agree with me here but I find the PS....what's is called?....Ok the PSA ...no wrath issue a mere distraction . Maybe just to me but it seems to take us to the right or the left and not keep our primary focus and we know who laughs when we do that.
Do I feel it's necessary to think that God the Father (and Spirit) actually poured out WRATH on Jesus? No I don't. God did provide a type of Jesus dying as the supreme sacrifice with Abraham and Issac. We've all heard the comparison. As Abraham had to sacrifice his son so God so loving the world did the same. Only difference......Jesus had to die. Now did Abraham have these fierce angry feelings towards his son? No. It was the hardest thing he ever could do in carrying out what God said. So God the Father would have less LOVE for his son then Abraham? Wouldn't think so. Just believing Jesus paid the penalty, death is well and good enough. I see no need to have to assert God the Father was in some way or any way furious at his son.
Here's though is where others might not agree with me. I don't think God cares too much what position one has wrath or merely , penalty.....the main thing is to get people to believe Jesus was their substitute . I'm thinking God would say don't worry about the wrath or penalty issue that is from the standpoint of arguing about it. If people need straightened out that adjustment can take place in the next world. You know it'll all be settled by Jesus
in one moment in heaven when Jesus might say, "Oh and by the way you technically wrong about this" The other will say, "Oh Ok sorry Lord" I think our job is just to get people to believe that Jesus died for their sins and receive him as their Lord. As for me and I know some of my dear friends may not agree with me here but I find the PS....what's is called?....Ok the PSA ...no wrath issue a mere distraction . Maybe just to me but it seems to take us to the right or the left and not keep our primary focus and we know who laughs when we do that.
civic
Well-known member
The one thing I have an issue with is the God provided a sacrifice for Abraham , a LAMB.
The Lamb that was sacrificed was the type, not Isaac.
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