What happened was
2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV 1900) — 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Where's the wrath??
- Thread starter Joe
- Start date
2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV 1900) — 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
civic
Well-known member
Do you think the Father was angry with the Son ?
Johann
Well-known member
So were you there? Where the Bible is silent-you stay silent.
this is not silent
2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV 1900) — 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
nor are these
Romans 3:23–26 (NIV) — 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
John 3:16 (NIV) — 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
doesn not evince any evidence the Father needed to be reconciled by venting his wrath out on the son
koberstein
Active member
No. I believe in Isaiah that it pleased Adonai to bruise him.
Were there wrath between father and son what would be the effect on the unity of the godhead?
Johann
Well-known member
Maybe you should go back to the drawing board-really.
מי האמין לשׁמעתנו וזרוע יהוה על־מי נגלתה׃
ויעל כיונק לפניו וכשׁרשׁ מארץ ציה לא־תאר לו ולא הדר ונראהו ולא־מראה ונחמדהו׃
נבזה וחדל אישׁים אישׁ מכאבות וידוע חלי וכמסתר פנים ממנו נבזה ולא חשׁבנהו׃
אכן חלינו הוא נשׂא ומכאבינו סבלם ואנחנו חשׁבנהו נגוע מכה אלהים ומענה׃
והוא מחלל מפשׁענו מדכא מעונתינו מוסר שׁלומנו עליו ובחברתו נרפא־לנו׃
כלנו כצאן תעינו אישׁ לדרכו פנינו ויהוה הפגיע בו את עון כלנו׃
נגשׂ והוא נענה ולא יפתח־פיו כשׂה לטבח יובל וכרחל לפני גזזיה נאלמה ולא יפתח פיו׃
מעצר וממשׁפט לקח ואת־דורו מי ישׂוחח כי נגזר מארץ חיים מפשׁע עמי נגע למו׃
ויתן את־רשׁעים קברו ואת־עשׁיר במתיו על לא־חמס עשׂה ולא מרמה בפיו׃
ויהוה חפץ דכאו החלי אם־תשׂים אשׁם נפשׁו יראה זרע יאריך ימים וחפץ יהוה בידו יצלח׃
מעמל נפשׁו יראה ישׂבע בדעתו יצדיק צדיק עבדי לרבים ועונתם הוא יסבל׃
לכן אחלק־לו ברבים ואת־עצומים יחלק שׁלל תחת אשׁר הערה למות נפשׁו ואת־פשׁעים נמנה והוא חטא־רבים נשׂא ולפשׁעים יפגיע׃
Isaiah 53:5-6 (NIV): "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities (עֲוֹנוֹתֵינוּ, avonoteinu); the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity (עָוֹן, avon) of us all."
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach's] hand.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own derech (way; see Prov 16:25); and Hashem hath laid on him [Moshiach] the avon (iniquity, the guilt that separates from G-d) of us all.
a. "Stricken" from above, (comp. Gen_12:17; 2Ki_15:5); so strong is this word that many have viewed the Servant as a leper - His disease so far advanced that men were horrified by His very appearance!
b. "Smitten of God" - an expression that is used elsewhere of the infliction of disease as a divine chastisement, (1Sa_5:12; Psa_102:4; Hos_9:16; Joh_19:7).
c. "Afflicted", wrapped about with suffering - which they regarded as a consequence of His own sin, (comp. Act_3:13-21; 1Co_2:8).
2. In the day of enlightenment Israel will recognize the truth: here the idea of divine substitution is perfectly expressed; it is FOR US that He suffered!
a. He has "borne OUR griefs" (sickness, weakness and distress), "and carried our sorrows" - involving the pain and punishment due OUR SINS, (vs.
4a; Isa_63:9; Heb_4:15). The word "borne" is clearly connected with sacrifices and expiation, (Lev_5:1; Lev_5:17; Lev_16:22).
1) Though Matthew sees in this a reference to our Lord's healing of physical ailments (Mat_8:17), its main emphasis is on the spiritual.
2) The Lord did not heal everyone during His personal ministry; nor does he do so today, (comp. 2Co_12:7-10; 2Ti_4:20; 1Ti_5:23).
b. It was for OUR transgressions (those who have so wretchedly misjudged the truth concerning Him) that He was "pierced through". (vs. 5a, 8; Psa_22:16; Heb_9:28); for OUR "iniquities" He was smitten, crushed, bruised or broken, (vs. 5-b, 10; Rom_4:25; Rom_5:6-8; 1Co_15:3; Eph_5:2; comp. Gen_3:15); Isaiah uses the strongest words possible to describe a violent and agonizing death!
c. The divinely-administered chastisement that fell upon the Suffering Servant was the very thing that provides our PEACE - not only our general well-being, but our salvation and restoration to a relationship of peace with God, (vs. 5-c; Heb_5:8; Php_2:7-8).
d. It is by, or through, His "stripes" that we are healed (from our rebellion and backslidings) - restored to spiritual soundness and fellowship with the heavenly Father, (vs. 5-d; 1Pe_2:24-25).
e. Like wandering sheep, WE are ALL GONE ASTRAY - each one demanding freedom and independence for working out his own destiny, (vs. 6-a).
1) Created with the power of self-determination, mankind has persistently demonstrated a spirit of self-will - rejecting, even failing to consider, the will of God, Eph_5:18.
2) Made in the image of God, and destined to share His very nature and deity, rebellious man has become self-centered instead of God-centered.
f. But, instead of destroying the rebel race, God has caused the total weight of our wretchedness and sin to fall, with terrific impact, upon His obedient and faithful Servant - sparing not His own beloved Son, but freely delivering Him up FOR US ALL!! (vs. 6-b; Rom_5:16-17; 2Co_5:21; Rom_8:32).
3. Under the influence of the Holy Spirit, Peter uses this passage to remind the household of faith that the suffering Servant is the "Shepherd and Bishop" of their souls, (1Pe_2:24-25). He is:
a. The Good Shepherd - who lays down His life for the sheep (Joh_10:11).
b. The Great Shepherd - risen from the dead and interceeding at the Father's right hand, (Heb_13:20-21).
c. The Chief Shepherd - whose glorious second coming, to rule righteously over all the earth, is the blessed expectation of His believing people, (1Pe_5:4; Tit_2:11-14).
Wuensche calls attention to the fact, that the thought that the Servant of God took on Himself our guilt occurs no less than twelve times in one chapt.: viz., 1) “He bore our sickness,” Isa_53:4 a; 2) “He carried our griefs,” Isa_53:4 a; 3) “He was wounded for our transgressions,” Isa_53:5 a; 4) “He was pierced for our iniquities,” Isa_53:5 a; 5) “The chastisement of our peace was upon Him,” Isa_53:5 b; 6) “By His stripes we were healed,” Isa_53:5 b; 7) “Jehovah laid on Him the iniquity of us all,” Isa_53:6 b; 8) “For the transgression of my people He was stricken,” Isa_53:8 b; 9) “When thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin,” Isa_53:10 a; 10) “And He will bear their iniquity” Isa_53:11 b; 11) “And was numbered with the transgressors,” Isa_53:12 a; 12) “He bore the sins of many,” Isa_53:12 b. From this appears what eminent importance the Prophet attaches to this thought, and how he cannot leave off extolling this wonderful display of the self-denying love of the Servant of God to men.
Isa_53:5. The description of the Servant as pierced and crushed, plainly intimates that the Prophet thinks of Him as mortally hurt, which is, moreover, confirmed by “He was cut off,” etc. (Isa_53:8), and by the mention of His burial (Isa_53:9), and awakening to life (Isa_53:10), and finally by the unmistakable “He hath poured out His soul unto death” (Isa_53:12).—מִפְשָׁעֵינוּ מֵעֲוֹתֵינוּ; as מן does not=ὑπό, but is=ἀπό, our sins and iniquities are not the direct origin of His being pierced and crushed, but only the indirect cause of it (Del.).—As יָסַר or יִסַּר, is very often used in the sense of “to punish,” and is used in particular of the punishments that God decrees against sin (comp. e.g., Lev_26:28; Psa_39:12; Jer_10:24; Jer_30:11), we must refer מוסר to the first half of the verse, and must regard this being pierced and crushed for the sake of sin as the punishment that rests on the Servant to the salvation of His people. For שָׁלוֹם stands here evidently on the one hand in antithesis to the wounds and stripes, on the other parallel with נִרְפָא, so that the sense is salvum esse, salus, healing, salvation, corresponding to the fundamental meaning of the word. The second half of the verse, like the first, consists of two members that are parallel in meaning.
Isa_53:6 explains how it comes, that the Servant of God, though innocent Himself, has yet to bear the guilt of men. “All we,” says Israel, “like lost sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way.” No distinction is observable here between true and apostate Israelites. There is rather an expression of universal sinfulness. Or did the Servant of God appear only for the apostate? Did, perhaps, “the true worshippers of Jehovah” need no expiation for their sins? That would be a contradiction of the universal Biblical view, that Paul so emphatically utters with special appeal to Old Testament passages (Rom_3:9 sqq., comp. Psa_14:3; Psa_53:4; Isa_59:2 sqq.). No, Israel so speaks in the name of all its members. And it seems to me, that Israel has not merely its Babylonian forsakenness in mind, but the total character of its moral status in all times. For it seems to me that the words, Isa_53:6 a, according to the whole context, are to be referred, not to the outward, but to the inward condition, the state of the heart. In fact it is of the sins of the people that the context speaks, which the Servant is to bear. Wherein these sins consist is stated Isa_53:6 a, viz., that the Israelites were all of them wandering sheep, that had forsaken their shepherd (comp. Num_27:17; 1Ki_22:17; 2Ch_18:16), and were going their own self-chosen way, that gratified the flesh, כלנו and the corresponding אישׁ לדדבו the Prophet utters with the greatest emphasis. Sinners they all are, even the prophets and the pious. Does not Isa_6:5 exclaim: “woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips”? Thus all of them may, in a certain sense, be more or less compared to sheep, that strayed away behind their shepherd (comp. Num_14:43, etc.), an went their own way (Isa_65:2; comp. Isa_42:24 and Isa_56:11, where the same words are used). Of course they were divided into misleaders and misled (comp. Jer_1:6-7; Eze_34:2 sqq.). In fact under some conditions the הִתְעָה is ascribed to the Lord Himself (Isa_63:17).
Israel, therefore, has sinned, and the Servant of God is punished. How does that hang together? Did the Servant, perhaps, accidentally come into the domain of the evil that should come on Israel for the punishment of its sins? By no means. God intentionally laid on the Servant the guilt of Israel. פָנַע means undoubtedly, “to strike, to hit against one, impingere, obvenire,” in a hostile as in a friendly sense. That is, of course, wonderful, that the sufferings that strike the Servant of God are such as properly ought to strike us, the wandering sheep, but which the hand of God diverts and suffers to fall on His head. If now the object of this procedure was not to make the just punishment strike the Servant for imputed guilt with the same inward necessity with which it would have struck the actually guilty, and, in fact, that these guilty ones under certain conditions might be free from punishment, then I see not how the Prophet could say: “Jehovah laid on Him the iniquity of us all.”
—By that it is surely not said that the Servant “let Himself experience the violent death [occasioned] through [men’s] enmity against God,” but that God laid on Him the guilt of us all. What an injustice! Who without the least fault will let himself be loaded with the burden of another’s faults to his own ruin? Who does not at least protest against it with all his might by word and deed? The Servant of God does not protest. He is dumb. If the ideas נִנַשׂ and נַֽעֲנֶה were meant to be regarded as of equal value and more rhetorical repetition, it must read נִגּשׂ הוּא וְנַעֲנֶה. The placing of וְ before הוּא and the participle gives the clause the character of a conditional clause and simultaneously makes prominent the subject. נָגַשׂ is “urgere,” “premere.” It is commonly used in respect to violent oppressors (comp. Isa_3:5; Isa_3:12; Isa_9:3 and the נֹגְשִׂים of the Israelites in Egypt, Exo_5:6 sqq.). In respect to this “oppression” the Servant maintains a passive attitude.
Yet there is also a certain activity on His part, i.e., so far as He willingly submits Himself. This is expressed by והוּא נעגה. We can therefore translate: He was oppressed (the doing of another), while He (the doing of the Servant) willingly submitted Himself. Hence the Niph. נִגַּשׂ is a pure passive Niph., while נַעֲנֶה is reflexive. This willing submission is emphatically portrayed by a double figure. But because the silent suffering of the Servant (comp. 1Pe_2:23) would be made prominent, that is twice said of Him which is an index of the patience of the sheep both in the slaughter and the shearing, viz., He did not open His mouth.—And indeed this phrase is put before as if it were a thesis, to be illustrated by examples, and then it follows at the close as designation of the general truth drawn from the special facts. שֶׂה, properly nomen unitatis as צֹאן, designates here a single, and that a male sheep, such as was prescribed for sacrifice (Exo_12:5, etc.).רָחֵל is the grown mother-sheep, as lambs were not shorn. The figure of the dumb sheep occurs again Jer_11:19 also Psa_38:14-15 (Psa_38:13-14); Psa_39:10 (Psa_39:9)).
Lange.
J.
Maybe you should post a verse which actually mentions God expressing wrath towards Christ
BTW this you posted
c. The divinely-administered chastisement that fell upon the Suffering Servant was the very thing that provides our PEACE - not only our general well-being, but our salvation and restoration to a relationship of peace with God, (vs. 5-c; Heb_5:8; Php_2:7-8).
d. It is by, or through, His "stripes" that we are healed (from our rebellion and backslidings) - restored to spiritual soundness and fellowship with the heavenly Father, (vs. 5-d; 1Pe_2:24-25).
e. Like wandering sheep, WE are ALL GONE ASTRAY - each one demanding freedom and independence for working out his own destiny, (vs. 6-a).
Speaks of restoration and healing not wrath
Where is the verse which tells us the father needed to be propitiated. That Christ came to fix something in God.
That God cannot actually forgive but most punish, cannot forgive a dept but most collect payment
i
Hello brother,
Please think about this: nowhere, not one single place in the OT or NT does it ever mention a sacrifice for sins suffered wrath, but only that its life given to death atoned for sins. "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."
Our Lord did not suffer wrath from His Father. Again, nowhere in the OT or NT is that said, mentioned, or taught. It must be read into the text. This is a major signal that we have drifted into error.
If Jesus or any other sacrifice for sin suffered the wrath of God for our sins, it would be explicitly taught. It is not. But what is taught is the perfect-spotless sacrifice dying explicitly for the sins of man atones for their sins. The repeated sacrifices of the law were never intended to effectively and permanently remove sin, but pointed to one time sacrifice of the perfect Servant of God, Jesus Christ who gave up His perfect life unto death for our sins.
God teaches us that He gave His own Son to be the final, effective offering for sin that completely and permanently removes the guilt of our sin, and to receive this unimaginable gift of righteousness-being right with God one only needs to believe Him.
We are not saved because God expended wrath on His Son. This errant teaching is from man not God, which I too once held until the Lord graciously began to teach me differently. It has been such a monumental renewing of my mind since then, freeing me from the insidious poison of Calvinism and the error of PSA.
We are saved by God's grace through faith that God sent His Son into this world to offer up His life on account of our sins. In love of His Father and us, the perfect-sinless Son of Man, Jesus Christ humbled Himself in offering His life unto death on a cross to atone for our sins. The single act of righteousness that justifies us, as mentioned by the Apostle Paul in Romans 5:17-18, is our Lord's actions based upon His love and obedience towards His Father and His love towards us, humbling Himself to offer His sinless life unto death to remove the guilt of our sins. His perfect life willingly given up unto death to atone for our sins was accepted, and now anyone who comes to God through faith in Jesus Christ is saved.
Again, it is not mentioned by any writer in the OT or NT that sacrifices suffered God's wrath. They suffered death, but not God's wrath. They died because of man's sin; and it is here God teaches man that only a sinless life offered for a sinful life can make us right with Him; "Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God".
God Bless
There is the additional problem PSA acts on God. God needed to be placated so the atonement fixes a problem in God, that is his need to punish transgression and demand payback but the bible teaches God is doing the acting, making atonement
2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV 1900) — 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
and reconciling man who is the object of the atonement
see also
John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
civic
Well-known member
Amen it’s nowhere to be found
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
46 and about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a great voice, saying, `Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, `My God, my God, why didst Thou forsake me?'
Johann
Well-known member
Be prepared for "hula-hoops" brother.
civic
Well-known member
Yes, absolutely!
God gave the law to prove to us man are sinners. Within the law, God made man responsible for his sins, and also responsible for bringing his own sin offering to the priests. Man was to read and hear the law of God to get it into their hearts and minds and to obey. The repeated offerings for personal sins was a common event at the temple. The law was never intended to make man right with God, but to demonstrate what God was going to do in our Lord Jesus Christ in establishing the new covenant.
Under the new covenant, it is God who gave an offering for our sins. It is God who writes His law in our hearts and minds. It is God who forgives our sins and remembers them no more. It is by God's power that we triumph over sin and no longer under its power. We are new creations all because of God's wonderful grace. The only thing we bring is our miserable sinful selves with a change of heart and faith in what God has done through His Son Jesus Christ; and even this is all brought about by God.
"God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
God presented His own Son as a sacrifice-sin offering to atone-make reconciliation for our sins. In the death of Jesus Christ, God demonstrated He is righteous when forbearing judgement for sins of those before Jesus, and demonstrates now after Jesus that He is righteous for forgiving sins (ref: Rom 3:25-26).
It is all God from front to back to save us and make us holy. Nothing about God needing placated to be merciful and loving towards us. Our sins demand God to be righteous and judge us for them, and the sacrifices of the law point to what God would do in His Son; put to an end the demand for us to be judged for our sins. God judged sin in the purposed and willful offering His own Son made for our sins.
God is love!
God Bless
Johann
Well-known member
I'm really not interested in what you're saying or advocating or promulgating.
Have a blessed day.
Why? Read Psalm 22 where the reference comes from
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises. z
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the LORD,” they say,
“let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce g my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.
19 But you, LORD, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
Christ may have felt forsaken but as psalm 22 shows God had not forsaken him
further
2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV 1900) — 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
According to this verse God was in Christ acting to make atonement
He could not be doing that had he forsaken Christ
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