brightfame52
Active Member
False, the Abrahamic Covenant is Spiritual, supernatural above the biological, it's about Abrahams Spiritual seed born of God
What is the New Covenant?
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
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jeremiah1five
Active Member
The Abrahamic Covenant was a natural and physical covenant between God, Abram the Hebrew, and Abram's Hebrew seed.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Genesis 17:7.
Nor was this covenant a "spiritual" covenant. How can land be "spiritual"? This was a covenant between a real person, not a spiritual person. The Holy SPIRIT wasn't given until 1500 years later (Acts 2.)
brightfame52
Active Member
False, it was God's Covenant, The Triune God Covenant. It's the Covenant established in Christ Gal 3 17
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
That's a entirely different Covenant from the mosaic Covenant
Wick Stick
Active Member
The covenant is clear:
Genesis 17:1-4 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for me, behold, my covenant [is] with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
You do know that nations are Goyim, right? You cannot just delete the last bit of Abraham's covenant.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
That's the Hebrew covenant, NOT Gentile. There is NO COVENANT in the Old Testament between God and Gentiles.
And if no covenant, then there is no salvation.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Your interpretation of "father of many nations" as "father of Gentiles, or Goyim.
But tell me, how can two Hebrew parents birth a non-Hebrew Gentile? That's like two Russian parents birthing a Mexican child. By taking "nations": as "Goyim, or Gentile means that two Hebrew parents CAN birth a non-Hebrew child. That's what you're saying.
God reveals Abram as Hebrew:
13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; Genesis 14:13.
This means Abram is from the family of Eber, from which the word "Hebrew" derives. Abram married his half-sister whose father is Abram's uncle and brother to his father. If you are taking "nations" as meaning "Gentile" (Goyim), then explain to me how two Hebrew parents can birth a non-Hebrew child?
The word translated "nations" as Gentile is in error for at the time of Abraham the Hebrew word means "massing." It is also used of Abraham and Sarah.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Genesis 17:6–7.
16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. Genesis 17:15–16.
Abram and Sarai are descendants of Eber. Abram married his half-sister. Sarai's father is brother to Abram's father. This means that Isaac is a Hebrew son who was born of two Hebrew parents (Abram and Sarai.) Now pay attention. The Hebrew word translated in the KJV as "nations" does not mean "Gentile."
Remember that Abram had Ishmael who was half-Hebrew and half-Egyptian (Hagar.)
Definition of "nations" in Genesis 17:6 means:
gôy [Strong's #1471] rarely (shortened) goy, go’-ee; apparently from the same root as <H1465> (gevah) (in the sense of massing)
As you can see the word does not mean "Gentile" as you say. It is merely a word that at the time meant "massing."
It is also used to Sarai, who is Hebrew (family of Eber.)
Now let me ask you: It says Abram and Sarai are related. Abram's father and Sarai's father are both brothers. This means Abram - who is Hebrew - married another Hebrew, Sarai, whom God said would be a "mother of nations."
BUT the word "nations" in the text does not mean "Gentile." It means, "massing" (as in many.)
So, tell me, according to your erroneous interpretation, how can two Hebrew parents birth a non-Hebrew son (Isaac)?
First of all, Gentiles do not come from the loins or seed of Abram. They come from Ham and Japheth, the other two sons of Noah.
Second, Abram had a son with an Egyptian named, "Hagar." This son's name was Ishmael, and Ishmael had twelve sons just like Jacob had twelve sons.
Third, then, there is Esau. Esau had two non-Hebrew wives: Judith and Bashemath.
The word translated "nations" in Genesis 17 does not mean "Gentile." According to Strong it means "massing" (as in many.)
So, let's be honest here. "Gentile" did not exist at the time of Abram. "Gentile" came into existence as the result of the Abrahamic Covenant God made with Abram and with Sarai. Goy and Goyim at the time of Abram did not mean "Gentile" until much later. But at the time of Abram before he had any children everyone was an "Adamite" for Adam was the father of everyone. Beginning in Genesis 14:13 when God identified Abram as a descendant of Eber, from which the word "Hebrew" derives.
You are wrong to define "nations" as "Gentile." The word merely means, "massing" (as in many.) Everyone was an "Adamite." It was by virtue of the covenant God made with "Abram the Hebrew" (Gen. 14:13) that God separated the peoples alive at the time through the covenant God made. But the real separation between peoples was established through circumcision which God commanded Abram to do with every male in his household - even himself.
Now, you're trying to make the Hebrew word "goy" be defined as "Gentile", but this is bad bible study. It was much later that the word "goy" came to mean "non-Hebrew", not necessarily "Gentile." But the word means "massing" (as in many.) And through Ishmael, Isaac, and Esau, the being "father of many nations" is true because of Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael, and Esau. Abram was a "father of many" ("massing.") After Sarai died Abram remarried and had more children. Then these children and seed of Abram did in time become "many" ("massing.") If you are going to incorrectly define "nations" as "Gentile" you would be wrong, as I said. When we get into the New Testament Greek the word translated is "ethnos" from where we get the word "ethnic," which this word can also mean "massing" (many.)
Both Abram and Sarai were half-sister/brother for their fathers/dads were brothers. Beginning with "Eber" from which we get the word "Hebrew", the separation between obedient and disobedient peoples came to become distinct. Eber's father, Salah, was obedient to God. God commanded the Adamites to "be fruitful and multiply and to fill the earth" (scatter.) And that's what "Salah" did. He most likely "crossed over" the Euphrates River and to commemorate that act of obedience named his son, "Eber", which word/name means "crossed over."
So, we have Abram and Sarai, both descendants from "Eber" and both who had a son, named Isaac. Abram's servant travelled to Mesopotamia, unto the city of Nahor, to find a wife for Isaac (Genesis 24:10, 15). Rebekah is identified as "the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padan-aram" (Genesis 25:20). Isaac later tells his son Jacob to go to Padan-aram to take a wife from his mother's family there (Genesis 28:2). So, here we have Hebrews marrying Hebrews and none of their sons or daughters were born "non-Hebrew."
It was through Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and Esau, that Abram was true to God's identification of being a "father of many." But the covenant/promises God made to Abram was coming true. God said:
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Genesis 17:2–7.
And to Sarai, God said:
15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. Genesis 17:15–16.
In verse sixteen above God tells Sarai/Sarah that "she shall be a mother of nations [and] kings of people shall be of her." "Nations" and "kings" shall be of her. God told Abram/Abraham the same thing:
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Genesis 17:6.
Through Abraham and Sarah, the Hebrew people born from both began to grow.
So, "No," the word "nations" does not mean "Gentile." It means, "massing" as in "massing" a family through intermarriage within the Hebrew family.
brightfame52
Active Member
It's the Everlasting Covenant in Christ, it's Spiritual
The fact that there is salvation disproves your claim, then.
John 3:16–17 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him.
Rom 10:9–13 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”
1 Tim 2:3–6 This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,
1 John 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Tim 4:10 For to this end we labor and suffer reproach, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers.
Isa 45:22 Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God and there is none besides me.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
John 4:42 And they were saying to the woman, “No longer because of what you said do we believe, for we ourselves have heard, and we know that this one is truly the Savior of the world!”
This would be spiritual
Gal 3:14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
But are you now proclaiming all that the Jews were promised is land?
All that the gentiles are excluded from is the land of the Jews?
Wick Stick
Active Member
What interpretation? That's just the Hebrew word in the text:
אני הנּה בריתי אתּך והיית לאב המון גּוים׃ Gen 17:4
As for me, behold, my covenant [is] with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Gen 17:4
Adoption. Two Hebrew parents can adopt a Gentile, and he will become a Hebrew. Two Russian parents can adopt a Mexican child, and yes, he'll become Russian.
Paternity isn't about genetics or DNA in the Bible. That idea didn't even exist back then.
It's about waters, and a father's ability to impress his image onto the child. For natural children, the waters part is at birth. Every child is born through water. Adopted children must pass through water to be "born again." That's what baptism is. (John 3) And then, the LORD impresses His image on us.
Uh... Genesis wasn't written at the time of Abraham.
Etymologically, Goy most literally means "body," and so yes, Goyim can mean "swarm." But the word is never used that way in the Bible. 100% of the time, it refers to tribes or nations. Very often, it refers to non-Hebrew tribes or nations. Here's how the translators see it:
But don't listen to me. Listen to the New Testament. In Romans 4, Paul appeals to this passage from Genesis, and he specifically does so to refer to the uncircumcision along with the circumcision.
Adoption. Baptism is a ceremony of being "born again."
Esau came to be outside the covenant of his fathers because he despised his birthright. The opposite of adoption also exists - one can leave the Tribe or be removed.
The translators are correct - it means 'nations.' That includes foreign nations.
If we're being honest, then let's not appeal to minority definitions of a word that are so rare that they aren't used in the Bible, or even the major lexicons.
I'll happily accept the idea that it was later than Abraham's day that Goyim gained the special meaning of "non-Hebrew" or "Gentile." But in Abraham's day, "nations" existed, of course. To say "nations" in the plural necessarily includes people other than your own people. Otherwise it would just be one nation (singular).
And, like I said earlier, Genesis wasn't written in Abraham's day. It was written, at the earliest, in Moses' day. Moses has rules against miscegenation. Goyim are foreign nations in Moses day, and indeed the whole Bible afterwards as well.
Really, just read Romans 4. Paul explains Abraham and nations the same way I have. Rather it's me that's parroting Paul and the prophets
Your whole argument boils down this. But the New Testament, the early church fathers, the translators of the Bible, the prophets, and thousands of years of Jewish tradition, disagree with this idea. And me. I disagree with it, too.
Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. 11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. 12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
You have made seven comments to me. I am not going to respond to them all like last time and the time before that.
Why do you do that? All you do is regurgitate textbook responses in each of them.
YES. When the Lord returns and sits on His throne the time of rewarding Israel comes and the Hebrew people, and mixed-race Jews will be given their own land by God as Promised (this is why it's called the Promised Land) and there will be no non-Hebrew Gentiles living in this land for God Himself will deport them all so Israel may enjoy their gifts of the Lord without any Gentile rushing around to buy Christmas presents.
The Jews will have their own land from the Lord and Israel will all worship the God of Abraham and there will be no Gentiles among the Jews to defile the land.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses,
HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD;
And the pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts:
And all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein:
And in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
Zechariah 14:20–21.
Aren't you happy for Israel?
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I am not TomL but that has been Gods plan from the beginning will be done and they have been his chosen and remain so
even though many have departed ...
Romans 11:
25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27“This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
You say... and there will be no non-Hebrew Gentiles living in this land for God Himself will deport them all so Israel may enjoy their gifts of the Lord without any Gentile rushing around to buy Christmas presents.
Is this the time that all non-Hebrew Gentiles will be escorted to the fiery pits of the unsaved?
Lets see. I wrote
This would be spiritual
Gal 3:14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
But are you now proclaiming all that the Jews were promised is land?
All that the gentiles are excluded from is the land of the Jews?
Where had you answered this?
Where have you addressed this?
But are you now proclaiming all that the Jews were promised is land?
All that the gentiles are excluded from is the land of the Jews?
jeremiah1five
Active Member
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Genesis 17:4.
At the time of Abraham, the word "goy" did not refer to "Gentiles" because at the time of Abraham's covenant with God "Gentiles" did not exist. Once God singled out one family: Salah's, then very soon after Abraham was called out and a covenant (promises) was given to him by God. Abraham was already a worshiper of God. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate he was "Gentile" or an idol-worshiper. Follow the family line in Genesis 11 from Salah going forward. The name "Eber" is to the Hebrew people a word that means "crossed/ing over" referring most likely to Salah taking his family over the Euphrates in obedience to God to "fill the earth" (scatter.)
Abraham had two sons. One was Ishmael, the other, Isaac. When Sarah died Abe remarried. Ishmael was father to twelve sons. Jacob, son of Isaac (the other, Esau) also had twelve sons. There were no "nations" at the time. Just nomadic tribes and families. In time the word "goy" came to be known to identify anyone who was not from the family of Eber, or Hebrew. Still later it came to identify someone who was "Gentile" or non-Hebrew. Although the KJV is four hundred and fourteen years ago, (1611), nations did not become nations as understood today until after the KJV was complete. Everyone was under some king. By the time of 1914 the assassination of Archduke of Austria set off a great big family was in Europe. Kings and royalty were all related to each other in WW1.
King George V and Wilhelm II (Austria) were first cousins. King George V and Tsar Nicolas II were cousins. One big family quarrel - like Israel and the Arabs. My point is most places had kings and queens. Nations did not come to mean nations as it is today understood until the 18th-19th centuries.
Scripture tries to communicate that Abraham was the father of many tribes and families through Ishmael, Esau to name a couple. The thing about having children from his loins as many as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore is not an exaggeration. Both Jews and Arabs are descendants of Abraham. Each are fighting for his inheritance. The Koran says Ishamel was promised, the other says, Isaac is heir. That won't be settled until Jesus returns.
That's exactly what it was all about: DNA.
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:2–6.
Abraham didn't want one of his servants to inherit Abe's possessions and rights. So, he asked God for an heir.
The rest is, as they say, rock n roll history.
You should learn history.
Abraham's.
You're confusing the image of man with the image of God. Read again Genesis 15:2-6. It's all about DNA.
There were Jews who grew up Gentile that were not circumcised, but being the seed of Abraham began to be born-again. Judaizers wanted to circumcise these people for in their mind they thought circumcision would "complete" their salvation.
The prophecy of birthright was already resolved when both Esau and Jacob were born. It's recorded in Genesis. Look it up.
You can't interpret ancient Hebrew and Greek using western free world definitions. Don't even try. You'll end up in error. But that's what Gentiles do. Including you. Modern day "nations" did not come to mean what it does today until people overthrew their monarchs and took over government. Look at the French Revolution or the American Revolution. 1700s.
Nothing's changed. The children of Jacob (Israel) are heirs to the Abrahamic promises.
Um Abraham was to be the father of many nations.
He was not a Jew but one from the nations
brightfame52
Active Member
This has nothing to do with ethnicity
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Correct. I WAS speaking about Tommy Boy. Apologies.
So, every Hebrew will be saved? All Israel shall be saved?
Too early. But if Zechariah is correct that there will be no Canaanite in the House of the Lord, then this means non-Hebrew Gentiles will occupy all land outside the Promised Land, right?
Because when God commanded Joshua to enter Canaan there were Canaanites living there but God sent the Hebrews in to eradicate every man, woman, teen, child, infant, newborn, and child in the womb with extreme prejudice. Even to destroy all their livestock and cattle and all their possessions of gold, silver, copper, wood, stone, everything. Why would God command Joshua to do this? Did they obey?
If God gives someone the gift of tongues does this mean that their neighbor living across the street is also given the gift of tongues? If God gives pastor Herbert, the gift of knowledge does this mean that usher Albert is also given the gift of knowledge? Is this how God works?
You quote Saul who quotes Isaiah, but did you know Saul changed the original prophecy by Isaiah to change a word and thus changing the meaning of the original prophecy by Isaiah? What does God call someone who would stoop so low to change a word in an original prophecy and substitute another word to make the original prophecy say something else? Did you know Saul did this?
jeremiah1five
Active Member
No, God promised Abraham more than land. But the Jews have to have somewhere to live that belongs to only them as the promise goes.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Nations didn't exist at the time of Abraham. You're trying to get doctrine from a translation, and you can't do this and hope to be right in your interpretations.
Non-Hebrew Gentiles are not born from Hebrew parents. It's impossible.
Abraham also had Ishmael and Esau. They had large families and they were blessed by virtue of being Abraham's seed, but the promises were inherited by Isaac and then Jacob.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Of course it does. Did you know that even topology is important to biblical interpretation? Or that weather is important in interpretation of Scripture? Did you know that every jot and tittle is also important to God in the great, grand, scheme of this that have to do with truth of interpreting Scripture according to Scripture?
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