What is the difference between eternal security, once saved always saved, and perseverance of the saints?

[mailmandan]

Still no answer.

Are we required to do good works or not?
AFTER salvation.

Must I post 10's of verses AGAIN?

This is not over-thinking....
it's properly understanding scripture.

Jesus said if we do not bear fruit we will be cut away:

John 15:1-2
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

I think that we should adhere to what Jesus taught.

No answer? I gave you an answer to your loaded question. Good works are not about required to either obtain or maintain salvation. It's not about we must do good works after salvation but that we will do good works if we truly have been saved. All genuine believers are fruitful but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no works at all demonstrate they have a bare profession of faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith.

In regard to John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

So, in John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit. This is not about a loss of salvation.

As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. -

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

John 15, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.

www.studylight.org

 

[praise_yeshua]

They're ALL evil and unbiblical?

One of them has to be right Dizerner because those are the only choices.

So,,,go back and discern which one you believe to be correct and then come back.

I would disagree that they are the only three choices.

I'll give you another one. It is what I believe.

"Being Secure in Christ" isn't about sin at all. It is about faith. A strong faith is the solution for sin.

I don't have to worry about sin in my life to the point of damnation. What I do have to do is to trust Christ to forgive me when I sin. Those that are in Christ Jesus will never fall away unless they abandon their faith. Which sometimes happens. I believe it is rare but it sometimes happens.

Thusly, there are more than three options.

Chastisement of the saints is proof that God doesn't cast us away simply because we sin. I've sinned for years and didn't realize I was actually committing sin. God just keep on loving me.....

I'll use an example of someone I like. We have spoken about him. "Sam" is an example of this and I don't know if he understands this now or not. All that time he was wrong (at least how he sees it now. Not saying he is actually wrong) God just keep loving him.

Faith is what keeps us. We could solve so many of our problems if we would just believe God. Some of us believe Him more than others. I'm not throwing those "others" away..... They are children of God. Beloved of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

There are "traitors" within Christianity. Think Absalom and David. (not saying Absalom feel into damnation)... I'm saying that Absalom so hated his father that didn't mind being a "traitor" to his father.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No answer? I gave you an answer to your loaded question. Good works are not about required to either obtain or maintain salvation. It's not about we must do good works after salvation but that we will do good works if we truly have been saved. All genuine believers are fruitful but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no works at all demonstrate they have a bare profession of faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith.

In regard to John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

So, in John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit. This is not about a loss of salvation.

As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. -

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

John 15, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.

www.studylight.org

Brother, this is such a weak argument. "We will do works"?????

Well.... when exactly should that happen? Trees grow. Vines grow. You don't cut off a vine or chop down a tree... before they "fruit".

We plant what "shall be". Not what is. What "SHALL BE".....

Harvests take time. Extend your argument.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No answer? I gave you an answer to your loaded question. Good works are not about required to either obtain or maintain salvation. It's not about we must do good works after salvation but that we will do good works if we truly have been saved. All genuine believers are fruitful but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no works at all demonstrate they have a bare profession of faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith.

In regard to John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

So, in John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit. This is not about a loss of salvation.

As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. -

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

John 15, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.

www.studylight.org

I'm going to add one more thing to what I said before......

God planted a garden in middle of a desert. A dessert full of nothing but destruction. A dessert full of ashes. Adam became the fruit of life in that garden. He grew in that garden. Yet the dessert that Satan had caused was empty. Satan came into God's garden to steal.......

He stole Adam from God. However, Satan didn't realize that God was "taking him" in his own "craftiness". Adam grow in that "barren/torn filled" land. Adam "overcame" this world in Jesus Christ. The seed of Eve. Adam was planted among torns........... just like Christ was.

We were purposed to overcome this world. Yet, some fall in the process. God is merciful to us all.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 3:16 is good news
For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

100 Bible Verses about Eternal Security Of The Believer​

You didn't pick one.
And what does the word BELIEVE mean to you?

You wrote CLINGS TO, TRUSTS IN, RELIES ON.

Could you explain better?

 

[GodsGrace]

John 3:16 is good news
For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

100 Bible Verses about Eternal Security Of The Believer​

You didn't pick one.
And what does the word BELIEVE mean to you?

You wrote CLINGS TO, TRUSTS IN, RELIES ON.

Could you explain better?

 

[mailmandan]

Brother, this is such a weak argument. "We will do works"?????

Well.... when exactly should that happen? Trees grow. Vines grow. You don't cut off a vine or chop down a tree... before they "fruit".

We plant what "shall be". Not what is. What "SHALL BE".....

Harvests take time. Extend your argument.

Weak? Not hardly. We must not confuse 'descriptive' passages with 'presctiptive' passages of scripture.

Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. *Notice the contrast.

Romans 2:6 - who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. *Notice the contrast.

 

[GodsGrace]

No answer? I gave you an answer to your loaded question.

Still no answer Dan.
Why is it a loaded question?
Here's why...
Because you don't really believe we need to do ANY good works.
You're depending on Jesus for everything...but this isn't what He taught.
Jesus said you're to pick up your cross daily if you want to follow Him.

Simple Question you just can't answer:
ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS AFTER SALVATION.

YES is the correct answer.
Skirting around the issue does NOT answer the question.

And it's a simple question for a follower of Jesus who understands that certain behavior is expected of us.
Jesus is NOT going to carry the full load.
Your behavior is helped by the Holy Spirit...
but you still have free will and you still need to make choices.

Good works are not about required to either obtain or maintain salvation.

Oh but yes they are.
Did you not read John 5??
Good works are required to maintain salvation.

Jesus left us with commands.
He expects us to obey those commands.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
What exactly is it that you think we're supposed to obey?
You believe in FAITH ONLY....
and the NT does not teach faith only.

Let's look at John 15:1-2 again:
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
What does the above say:
1. God is the vinedresser.
2. Every branch IN JESUS (that means we're ALREADY saved) that does not bear fruit...HE TAKES AWAY.

In verse we're told that IF we do not abide in Christ,,,he will be thrown away as a branch and will dry up and will burn.
The branch that is taken away will be burned because it's USELESS...

just as James states....
James 2:20
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
and again:
James 2:26
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.


3. If you continue reading John 15:2 you'll find that God expects us to do ever MORE good works.

It's not about we must do good works after salvation but that we will do good works if we truly have been saved.

No Dan.
Time to get serious.
Time to tell it like it is.
IT'S ABOUT DOING GOOD WORKS AFTER SALVATION.

What do you even mean by TRULY SAVED?
A person is saved or they are not saved.
There's a middle ground?
No. There is NOT.

And if a person is saved...
God expects Him to do good works just as Jesus taught.

All genuine believers are fruitful but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no works at all demonstrate they have a bare profession of faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith.

See above.
You're creating a third category which DOES NOT exist.

In regard to John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples).

NO... Read John 15 again.
It states that THE BRANCHES THAT DO NOT BEAR FRUIT WILL BE CUT OFF AND BURNED.
Can't be more clear than that.

I don't read anything there about genuine believers.
You're adding to scripture and this is one of the main reasons that scripture is misunderstood.
That's esisegesis and not exegesis.

The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

No. It says that they do not abide in Christ...they do not bear fruit...this is what John is teaching.
No talk there of genuine believers or non-genuine believers.
Again,,you're adding to scripture your own ideas.

So, in John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit. This is not about a loss of salvation.

Did I mention loss of salvation?
Is this your fear?
Do what Jesus taught and teach on these forums what Jesus taught and
you won't have to worry about losing your salvation.

As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. -

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

John 15, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.

www.studylight.org

Stop reading what people think and start adhering to what Jesus and the other Apostles said.
I could prove ANYTHING by using some writer or some theologian or other.

Show us from scripture that it's not NECESSARY to do good works.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would disagree that they are the only three choices.

I'll give you another one. It is what I believe.

"Being Secure in Christ" isn't about sin at all. It is about faith. A strong faith is the solution for sin.

I don't have to worry about sin in my life to the point of damnation. What I do have to do is to trust Christ to forgive me when I sin. Those that are in Christ Jesus will never fall away unless they abandon their faith. Which sometimes happens. I believe it is rare but it sometimes happens.

I agree. The lost fall away from their faith.
But you speak of having faith in Jesus and believing in Him to be secure.
So what does it mean to BELIEVE when the NT was written?

Thusly, there are more than three options.

No. Only 3 PY. Think it over well.
You admitted above that it's possible to forfeit our salvation.
That would be Eternal Security - which is my position BTW.

Chastisement of the saints is proof that God doesn't cast us away simply because we sin. I've sinned for years and didn't realize I was actually committing sin. God just keep on loving me.....

Agreed.
God doesn't cast us away because we sin.
Man will always sin.

But what does
1 John 3:9 mean to you?
9 No one who is born of God practices sin,

Is there a difference between 1 John 3: 9 and 1 John chapters one and two?

I'll use an example of someone I like. We have spoken about him. "Sam" is an example of this and I don't know if he understands this now or not. All that time he was wrong (at least how he sees it now. Not saying he is actually wrong) God just keep loving him.

Faith is what keeps us. We could solve so many of our problems if we would just believe God. Some of us believe Him more than others. I'm not throwing those "others" away..... They are children of God. Beloved of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

God doesn't throw anyone away.
People leave God...not the other way around.

2 Timothy 2:12
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

There are "traitors" within Christianity. Think Absalom and David. (not saying Absalom feel into damnation)... I'm saying that Absalom so hated his father that didn't mind being a "traitor" to his father.

I think there's some misconception regarding sinning...
and living a life of sin. 1 John 3:9

 

[praise_yeshua]

Weak? Not hardly. We must not confuse 'descriptive' passages with 'presctiptive' passages of scripture.

Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. *Notice the contrast.

Romans 2:6 - who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. *Notice the contrast.

I realize you hold a traditional Protestant position. I know, because I have been one. I don't choose between doctrines of men. I have my own beliefs.

I said much more than what you're addressing. If you will include those words, it will make sense to you.

All passages are "prescriptive" relative to revelation. You've bought into the excuses of men.

So when do you except a tree to fruit?

 

[GodsGrace]

Weak? Not hardly. We must not confuse 'descriptive' passages with 'presctiptive' passages of scripture.

Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. *Notice the contrast.

Romans 2:6 - who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. *Notice the contrast.

Thanks for posting scripture that supports ME Dan.
Very thoughtful of you!

Your very verse: EVERY TREE THAT DOES NOT BEAR GOOD FRUIT IS CUT DOWN.
I'd say that's descriptive AND prescriptive.

GOD WILL RENDER TO EACH ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
Yes...I think that means that we are TO DO good deeds.
I'd say that's prescriptive.

So we're going to argue about two words when speaking about the teachings of JESUS??

What is John 3:16?
Calvinists believe it's descriptive.
YOU think it's prescriptive.
See....it's nonsense.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No. Only 3 PY. Think it over well.
You admitted above that it's possible to forfeit our salvation.
That would be Eternal Security - which is my position BTW.

9 No one who is born of God practices sin,

God doesn't throw anyone away.
People leave God...not the other way around.

2 Timothy 2:12
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

I think there's some misconception regarding sinning...
and living a life of sin. 1 John 3:9

I'm going to just deal where we disagree...

HOW we see a forfeiture is what is at issue here. Which creates a 4th option. I disagree that my belief falls within your classifications.

Before I answer you above, I need more information from you.

When does God cast away someone for sin?

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm going to just deal where we disagree...

HOW we see a forfeiture is what is at issue here. Which creates a 4th option. I disagree that my belief falls within your classifications.

Before I answer you above, I need more information from you.

When does God cast away someone for sin?

Did I say He does?
God never casts away anyone for sin or we'd all be going to the hot place.

Here's what I said you should do.
Read 1 John chapters 1 and the beginning of 2.

Then read 1 John 3:9 ---- I even posted them for your convenience.

Here's what I'd like to know....
Is there a difference?

I also said this.
I think there's some misconception regarding sinning...
and living a life of sin. 1 John 3:9

So the question here is this:
Is there a difference between sinning and living a life of sin?

 

[GodsGrace]

@praise_yeshua

I also said that I believe in eternal security.
Did you read it?
I just don't know what else to say.....

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Did I say He does?
God never casts away anyone for sin or we'd all be going to the hot place.

Here's what I said you should do.
Read 1 John chapters 1 and the beginning of 2.

Then read 1 John 3:9 ---- I even posted them for your convenience.

Here's what I'd like to know....
Is there a difference?

I also said this.
I think there's some misconception regarding sinning...
and living a life of sin. 1 John 3:9

So the question here is this:
Is there a difference between sinning and living a life of sin?

To live a life of sin is to live without taking systematically into account God's will, God's commandments.
Sometimes it requires concious reflection and prayer. Sometimes it has been already embedded in our behavior.

Since a true believer cares about God (or as the British would say, "minds of God"), she either refrains to do evil, or repents genuinely from the evil has done. This is what was the Bible calls to be "God-fearing".

 

[Wilber]

You didn't pick one.
And what does the word BELIEVE mean to you?

You wrote CLINGS TO, TRUSTS IN, RELIES ON.

Could you explain better?

Sure thing. In order
1. BELIEVE, 2. CLINGS TO, 3. TRUSTS IN, 4. RELIES ON.

1. Those who have faith in God. After Pentecost, the term came to be used specifically to refer to Christians, that is, to those who believe and trust in God, as he has made himself known through Jesus Christ.

2. To cleave, adhere, stick to Jesus, abide in Him.

3. Trust, daily faith saves us from chronic worry. When we abide in Christ and rest in His promises, no alarm can overwhelm us for long, and no anxiety can sustain its attack

4. When You rely Jesus You Lose Your Fears We can rely on His love at the crucial junctions of life. We can rely on His love when our strength fails, when our friends die, when our hearts break, when our minds reel, when our hopes are dashed, when our health is gone. We can rely on His love, and His love is embodied in Jesus Christ.

So this verse: 1 John 4:7–19 says, in effect, whatever you’re facing right now, rely on Jesus! We don’t need to be afraid of anything in this life, because we can rest in the fact that come-what-may, God loves us and His perfect love casts out fear.

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is (springs) from God; and he who loves [his fellowmen] is begotten (born) of God and is coming [progressively] to know and understand God [to perceive and recognize and get a better and clearer knowledge of Him].
8 He who does not love has not become acquainted with God [does not and never did know Him], for God is love.
9 In this the love of God was made manifest (displayed) where we are concerned: in that God sent His Son, the only begotten or unique [Son], into the world so that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God loved us so [very much], we also ought to love one another.
12 No man has at any time [yet] seen God. But if we love one another, God abides (lives and remains) in us and His love (that love which is essentially His) is brought to completion (to its full maturity, runs its full course, is perfected) in us!
13 By this we come to know (perceive, recognize, and understand) that we abide (live and remain) in Him and He in us: because He has given (imparted) to us of His [Holy] Spirit.
14 And [besides] we ourselves have seen (have deliberately and steadfastly contemplated) and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son [as the] Savior of the world.
15 Anyone who confesses (acknowledges, owns) that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides (lives, makes His home) in him and he [abides, lives, makes his home] in God.
16 And we know (understand, recognize, are conscious of, by observation and by experience) and believe (adhere to and put faith in and rely on) the love God cherishes for us. God is love, and he who dwells and continues in love dwells and continues in God, and God dwells and continues in him.
17 In this [union and communion with Him] love is brought to completion and attains perfection with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment [with assurance and boldness to face Him], because as He is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love [dread does not exist], but full-grown (complete, perfect) love turns fear out of doors and expels every trace of terror! For fear brings with it the thought of punishment, and [so] he who is afraid has not reached the full maturity of love [is not yet grown into love’s complete perfection].
19 We love Him, because He first loved us.
1 John 4:7–19

 

[GodsGrace]

Sure thing. In order
1. BELIEVE, 2. CLINGS TO, 3. TRUSTS IN, 4. RELIES ON.

1. Those who have faith in God. After Pentecost, the term came to be used specifically to refer to Christians, that is, to those who believe and trust in God, as he has made himself known through Jesus Christ.

Actually the Greek term BELEIVE always existed and had a specific meaning.
You included the word believe with other words in a list.
Did you mean that items 2, 3 and 4 explain BELIEVE?

2. To cleave, adhere, stick to Jesus, abide in Him.

3. Trust, daily faith saves us from chronic worry. When we abide in Christ and rest in His promises, no alarm can overwhelm us for long, and no anxiety can sustain its attack

4. When You rely Jesus You Lose Your Fears We can rely on His love at the crucial junctions of life. We can rely on His love when our strength fails, when our friends die, when our hearts break, when our minds reel, when our hopes are dashed, when our health is gone. We can rely on His love, and His love is embodied in Jesus Christ.

So this verse: 1 John 4:7–19 says, in effect, whatever you’re facing right now, rely on Jesus! We don’t need to be afraid of anything in this life, because we can rest in the fact that come-what-may, God loves us and His perfect love casts out fear.

Agreed.

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is (springs) from God; and he who loves [his fellowmen] is begotten (born) of God and is coming [progressively] to know and understand God [to perceive and recognize and get a better and clearer knowledge of Him].
8 He who does not love has not become acquainted with God [does not and never did know Him], for God is love.
9 In this the love of God was made manifest (displayed) where we are concerned: in that God sent His Son, the only begotten or unique [Son], into the world so that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God loved us so [very much], we also ought to love one another.
12 No man has at any time [yet] seen God. But if we love one another, God abides (lives and remains) in us and His love (that love which is essentially His) is brought to completion (to its full maturity, runs its full course, is perfected) in us!
13 By this we come to know (perceive, recognize, and understand) that we abide (live and remain) in Him and He in us: because He has given (imparted) to us of His [Holy] Spirit.
14 And [besides] we ourselves have seen (have deliberately and steadfastly contemplated) and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son [as the] Savior of the world.
15 Anyone who confesses (acknowledges, owns) that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides (lives, makes His home) in him and he [abides, lives, makes his home] in God.
16 And we know (understand, recognize, are conscious of, by observation and by experience) and believe (adhere to and put faith in and rely on) the love God cherishes for us. God is love, and he who dwells and continues in love dwells and continues in God, and God dwells and continues in him.
17 In this [union and communion with Him] love is brought to completion and attains perfection with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment [with assurance and boldness to face Him], because as He is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love [dread does not exist], but full-grown (complete, perfect) love turns fear out of doors and expels every trace of terror! For fear brings with it the thought of punishment, and [so] he who is afraid has not reached the full maturity of love [is not yet grown into love’s complete perfection].
19 We love Him, because He first loved us.
1 John 4:7–19

Amen to that.


(nice how you explained all the important words).

 

[mailmandan]

Still no answer Dan.
Why is it a loaded question?
Here's why...
Because you don't really believe we need to do ANY good works.
You're depending on Jesus for everything...but this isn't what He taught.
Jesus said you're to pick up your cross daily if you want to follow Him.

I already gave you an answer. It's just not the answer that you wanted to hear. Your question is loaded as demonstrated by your straw man argument - "you really don't believe we need to do ANY good works" which is not what I said. I'm depending 100% on Jesus Christ to save me. His finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed. We are to do good works because we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) Believers pick up their cross to follow Jesus as His disciples and not to obtain or maintain salvation by works, as Roman Catholics and you teach.

Simple Question you just can't answer:
ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS AFTER SALVATION.

Good works, which are good and profitable to men (Titus 3:8) are required to glorify God (Matthew 5:16) and to meet urgent needs, that we may not be unfruitful. (Titus 3:14) Good works are not required to merit our salvation. We could never do enough good works to earn our salvation, (Romans 4:4-6) so good luck with that! God's standard is absolute perfection, and we all blew it. (Romans 3:23) We need a Savior. (Romans 6:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17)

YES is the correct answer.
Skirting around the issue does NOT answer the question.

Your loaded question needed to be qualified. You debate like a cunning lawyer.

And it's a simple question for a follower of Jesus who understands that certain behavior is expected of us.

Expected yes and believers are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) Good works are not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. (1 John 3:7-10)

Jesus is NOT going to carry the full load.
Your behavior is helped by the Holy Spirit...
but you still have free will and you still need to make choices.

Like I don't know that? Just because Jesus Christ is the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation does not mean that I'm supposed to remain idol and not grow in grace and in the knowledge of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 3:18) We still have free will and make choices.

Oh but yes they are.
Did you not read John 5??
Good works are required to maintain salvation.

False. That is "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door. Those who promote salvation by works will typically confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Jesus left us with commands.
He expects us to obey those commands.

Don't confuse commands for us in order to become saved with commands for us after we have been saved. There is a difference between obeying God's will in order to become saved (John 6:40) and obeying God's will after we have been saved. (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18)

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
What exactly is it that you think we're supposed to obey?
You believe in FAITH ONLY....
and the NT does not teach faith only.

The NT teaches salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone apart from works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Hence, FAITH ALONE. *Not to be confused with "faith only" per James 2:24 - empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) that remains alone - "barren of works." That is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith.

In regard to John 3:36, I often hear works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics) quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved "by" obedience/works. In regard to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which "follow" believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." To refuse to believe in the Son is to disobey, rebel, be disloyal and refuse conformity. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." *In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

Let's look at John 15:1-2 again:
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
What does the above say:
1. God is the vinedresser.
2. Every branch IN JESUS (that means we're ALREADY saved) that does not bear fruit...HE TAKES AWAY.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches (like Judas Iscariot) are cut off.

 

[mailmandan]

In verse we're told that IF we do not abide in Christ,,he will be thrown away as a branch and will dry up and will burn.
The branch that is taken away will be burned because it's USELESS...

IF is a confirmation Those who abide confirm they have a spiritual and vital connection with the vine. Those who do not abide confirm they have a mere cosmic connection (self-attached) to the vine.

just as James states....
James 2:20
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
and again:
James 2:26
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

In regard to "faith without works is useless or dead," James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

3. If you continue reading John 15:2 you'll find that God expects us to do ever MORE good works.

Of course, He does and that is what we are saved FOR but NOT BY. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Big difference!

No Dan.
Time to get serious.
Time to tell it like it is.
IT'S ABOUT DOING GOOD WORKS AFTER SALVATION.

Again, good works are what we are saved FOR but NOT BY. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Let that sink in.

What do you even mean by TRULY SAVED?
A person is saved or they are not saved.
There's a middle ground?
No. There is NOT.

I was not implying there is middle ground but there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers. That was my point.

And if a person is saved...
God expects Him to do good works just as Jesus taught.

Amen! (Ephesians 2:10)

See above.
You're creating a third category which DOES NOT exist.

There are genuine believers and there are make believers. That's only two categories and it's not hard to find genuine believers and make believers mixed together in various churches and on various Christian forum sites.

NO... Read John 15 again.
It states that THE BRANCHES THAT DO NOT BEAR FRUIT WILL BE CUT OFF AND BURNED.
Can't be more clear than that.

I have read John 15 numerous times. Once again, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples) and branches that are cut off are make believers (like Judas Iscariot) who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

I don't read anything there about genuine believers.
You're adding to scripture and this is one of the main reasons that scripture is misunderstood.
That's esisegesis and not exegesis.

John 15:5 - “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. Descriptive of believers. We know that only good trees bear good fruit. (Matthew 7:17) We also know - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit (1 John 4:13) and - Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. (1 John 4:15) Again, descriptive of believers.

John 15:6 - If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. A picture of condemnation. (John 3:18) Descriptive of make believers (who are unbelievers) like Judas Iscariot. (John 6:64-71) In John 8:31, Jesus said - “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” To continue in His word is to abide in His word. (1 John 2:14) Those who do not abide in His word demonstrate they are not truly His disciples. (John 6:64) *Hermeneutics. So, there are only two camps. Genuine believers who abide (like the remaining 11 disciples) and make believers who do not abide (like Judas Iscariot). Based on your eisegesis you are trying to create a third camp of Christians who do not abide because you teach salvation by works.

No. It says that they do not abide in Christ...they do not bear fruit...this is what John is teaching.
No talk there of genuine believers or non-genuine believers.
Again,, you're adding to scripture your own ideas.

Genuine believers produce good fruit. (Matthew 7:17; 13:23) Non-genuine believers do not produce good fruit. (Matthew 7:17(b); James 2:14). You need to learn how to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. Your eisegesis is not working.

Did I mention loss of salvation?
Is this your fear?

You did not have to mention it. It was obviously implied. If these were genuine believers who failed to abide and were thrown into the fire that would be a loss of salvation according to your eisegesis. Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic several years ago, I lived in fear and bondage to IN-security as a make believer/unbeliever. But after my conversion, I no longer live in fear and bondage to IN-security. (Psalm 37:28; John 10:27-28; Romans 8:30; Ephesians 1:13-14; 1 John 5:13) Praise God!

Do what Jesus taught and teach on these forums what Jesus taught and
you won't have to worry about losing your salvation.

Based on your eisegesis that culminates in salvation by works, which leaves one insecure. Did I do enough? Do I measure up? What is the standard? Even our best is not good enough. (Romans 3:23; 6:23) But His best is good enough. (Romans 4:5-6; 5:9; 5:19; 2 Corinthians 5:17)

Stop reading what people think and start adhering to what Jesus and the other Apostles said.
I could prove ANYTHING by using some writer or some theologian or other.

I do adhere to what Jesus and the other Apostles said. As for listening to other Christians. Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. Yet you refuse to be sharpened and are very satisfied with your eisegesis.

Show us from scripture that it's not NECESSARY to do good works.

Necessary for what? To obtain and/or maintain salvation? NO. We are not saved by works. Period. Good works are necessary to glorify our Father in heaven (Matthew 5:16) and necessary to be good and profitable to men (Titus 3:8) and necessary to meet urgent needs, that we may not be unfruitful. (Titus 3:14) Good works are not required to merit salvation. Just ask these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 who thought their works would save them, but they were sadly mistaken. Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved.

 

[mailmandan]

I'm going to add one more thing to what I said before......

God planted a garden in middle of a desert. A dessert full of nothing but destruction. A dessert full of ashes. Adam became the fruit of life in that garden. He grew in that garden. Yet the dessert that Satan had caused was empty. Satan came into God's garden to steal.......

He stole Adam from God. However, Satan didn't realize that God was "taking him" in his own "craftiness". Adam grow in that "barren/torn filled" land. Adam "overcame" this world in Jesus Christ. The seed of Eve. Adam was planted among torns........... just like Christ was.

We were purposed to overcome this world. Yet, some fall in the process. God is merciful to us all.

Matthew 15:13 - Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.
1 John 5:4 - For or whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.