What is the difference between eternal security, once saved always saved, and perseverance of the saints?

[Wilber]

I found this that shows your right. Thanks

CALVIN’S PERSEVERANCE IS NOT ETERNAL SECURITY​

Many Christians wrongly assume that the Calvinist theory of “the perseverance of the saints” [the “P” in T.U.L.I.P.] is synonymous with the doctrine of eternal security. The biblical doctrine of eternal security teaches that one who has been truly saved by God’s grace is kept eternally saved by God’s grace. God has not left our eternal destiny in our ability to persevere. For God to do that would result in a salvation by works.

Citing Augustine, John Calvin wrote, “[T]hose who do not persevere unto the end belong not to the calling of God.”2

Calvin also stated:

NO ASSURANCE OF SALVATION​

Even John Calvin himself did not possess assurance of salvation. Writing in his will shortly before his death in 1564, he declared:


John 3:36 says:


Calvin taught that he could not believe unless God first regenerated him and gave him faith to believe. It is not surprising, therefore, that Calvin or any Calvinist cannot have an assurance of salvation and, therefore, he must adhere to his perseverance of the saints theory.

No Calvinist can be sure of his salvation because he might be predestined just to think he is saved. After all, playing little head games with people would not be wrong for Calvin’s “God” since Calvin’s “God” is glorified by sending billions of people who had no choice to Hell for eternity.

Does Calvinism's "Perseverance" Really Offer Eternal Security? The Answer: No!

By Bob KirklandFrom the book Calvinism: None Dare Call It Heresy (Lighthouse Trails, 2018) The word perseverance is found only once in the Scriptures. Ephesians 6:18 commands the believer to be, “Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the...

www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com

Calvinists believe the “perseverance of the saints” (the P in TULIP) offers them eternal security, but in actuality, it brings them more insecurity than ever regarding their salvation. Here, the persevering is left up to the strength of the believer rather than resting on the promises of God that assure us eternal life is based on what He has already done, not what we do. It is our part to believe, repent, and put our trust in Him and His part to save and preserve us.

None Dare Call It Heresy: Spotlight on the Life and Teachings of John Calvin

 

[Dizerner]

Logically, every single form of OSAS is all the same.

Anyone that is a Christian cannot stop being one, period, so it's all logically the same.

What people argue concerning POTS or Lordship OSAS is "how to determine if you are OSAS'ed or not."

Basically it's "how to detect OSAS."

But all OSAS is deception anyway.

 

[TedT]

As per Genesis 1:27? God said LET US CREATE MAN IN OUR IMAGE.

GOD does not create sinners. Period.

If a doctrine claims anyone is a sinner or estranged from GOD (ie, liable to death which is the wage for sin, not just a consequence of life), because of their creation or how they were created or where they were created, then I reject it.

I only recognize those theologies that contend that sin only accrues to a person when they make a free will decision to sin from a state of innocence.

What does this mean?
That man is allowed to sin??

Of course everyone is allowed to sin if they want to...that is proven to me by sin being an actual thing and evil people being alive. GOD cannot create eviul so for sin to exist HE had to allow HIS creatiokn to create it.

Light cannot create darkness:
Some interpretations means that light CAN create darkness....that there is a power from GOD that when employed can stand in opposition to GOD! GOD is not a house divided, GOD is light and light cannot create darkness which is created only if something else blocks the light. This is akin to believing that there is a match or source of darkness which when employed shoots our darkness and fills the room with dark!!

A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
Berean Literal Bible
Matt 7:18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruits...the theology that we are created fallen says a good, even perfect, tree CAN produce bad fruit.

A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
Berean Standard Bible
My brothers, can a fig tree grow olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water. Most theologies says a fig tree CAN grow olives, that a grapevine CAN bear figs and that a salt spring CAN produce fresh water!

GOODNESS cannot bring forth evil.
Inherent evil cannot have been a part of our creation. We must have been created as perfectly able to choose by our free will to enter HIS righteous perfection or to repudiate HIS righteousness and become HIS eternal enemy.

It is far easier for me to believe that everyone created in HIS image, ie, able to become a proper bride for HIM, was created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose by their free will to either put their faith, an unproven hope, in HIM as our GOD and Saviour and so become HIS elect,
OR
to chose to put their faith, their unproven hope, in the idea HE was lying about HIS divinity and being our only saviour from sin and, as a liar HE was the first sinner in creation and therefore to be rebuked as a false god lying about the legal and natural consequences of making this choice.

All sin, all evil is a result of the free will choices of HIS creation, not from creating us as sinful or evil by any means at all.

What does IF THEY SHOULD EVER NEED IT mean?

That means that in contrast to those fok who out their faith in GOD in their innocence with sincere intentions to stay holy in HIS sight, others put their faith in HIM and accepted the Son as their only saviour from condemnation to hell with a full intent to go their own way into sin after they were safe from condemnation, ie, after they became one of HIS elect, albeit, sinfully inclined.

HE knew their intent of course but since they gave HIM the right to go against their sinful wills and so save them by putting their faith in HIM as their saviour, HE accepted them anyway, planning their redemption on earth. The father did not expel the prodigal son even once he knew what was happening; He just waited for the son to return from sin city.

 

[GodsGrace]

GOD does not create sinners. Period.

Agreed. Did I say this?

If a doctrine claims anyone is a sinner or estranged from GOD (ie, liable to death which is the wage for sin, not just a consequence of life), because of their creation or how they were created or where they were created, then I reject it.

You reject that man was stained with the sin of Adam?
It states this in
Romans 5:12
12 Therefore , just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned ...

Sin entered into the world.
This would be the stain of OS.
All men now die physically because of this OS.

It could also mean spiritual death.
Paul doesn't make a proper distinction here so it's difficult to know exactly what he meant.

I only recognize those theologies that contend that sin only accrues to a person when they make a free will decision to sin from a state of innocence.

I believe that all Christians believe what you've stated. Sin only accrues to the person that commits it.
It might be the STATE OF INNOCENCE that throws some off.

If you're saying that man is born innocent, then I agree.
If a baby dies he doesn't go to hell because he has not committed any sin yet.

Of course everyone is allowed to sin if they want to...that is proven to me by sin being an actual thing and evil people being alive. GOD cannot create eviul so for sin to exist HE had to allow HIS creatiokn to create it.

Where sin comes from initially could be debated forever and I'm not going to ask anything about how sin got its start.
Of course Calvinists have their answer: God created sin. But we know this cannot be supported by scripture.

Let me ask you this then:
If everyone is allowed to sin if they want to....
WHY do they want to?
A stained soul would not be a good reason for you?

Light cannot create darkness:
Some interpretations means that light CAN create darkness....that there is a power from GOD that when employed can stand in opposition to GOD! GOD is not a house divided, GOD is light and light cannot create darkness which is created only if something else blocks the light.

Agreed.

This is akin to believing that there is a match or source of darkness which when employed shoots our darkness and fills the room with dark!!

But there IS a source of darkness, right?

A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
Berean Literal Bible
Matt 7:18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruits...the theology that we are created fallen says a good, even perfect, tree CAN produce bad fruit.

What scripture makes you believe we are NOT born fallen?
IOW,,,fallen in the sense that we have lost our ORIGINAL relationship with God.
This is all fallen means.

A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
Berean Standard Bible
My brothers, can a fig tree grow olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water. Most theologies says a fig tree CAN grow olives, that a grapevine CAN bear figs and that a salt spring CAN produce fresh water!

Agreed.

GOODNESS cannot bring forth evil.

Agreed.

Inherent evil cannot have been a part of our creation. We must have been created as perfectly able to choose by our free will to enter HIS righteous perfection or to repudiate HIS righteousness and become HIS eternal enemy.

OK. But, again, what causes man to choose evil?
Somehow evil is in our creation.
Romans 8 states that even nature is awaiting redemption.
If you're saying that man is perfectly good then what makes man sin?
Something that is perfectly good will not sin.

It is far easier for me to believe that everyone created in HIS image, ie, able to become a proper bride for HIM, was created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose by their free will to either put their faith, an unproven hope, in HIM as our GOD and Saviour and so become HIS elect,

Agreed.

OR
to chose to put their faith, their unproven hope, in the idea HE was lying about HIS divinity and being our only saviour from sin and, as a liar HE was the first sinner in creation and therefore to be rebuked as a false god lying about the legal and natural consequences of making this choice.

Couldn't agree more.

All sin, all evil is a result of the free will choices of HIS creation, not from creating us as sinful or evil by any means at all.

Correct.

That means that in contrast to those fok who out their faith in GOD in their innocence with sincere intentions to stay holy in HIS sight, others put their faith in HIM and accepted the Son as their only saviour from condemnation to hell with a full intent to go their own way into sin after they were safe from condemnation, ie, after they became one of HIS elect, albeit, sinfully inclined.

Sorry. I don't understand the above...could you explain it a different way?
Here's what you said:

That means that in contrast to those fok who out their faith in GOD in their innocence with sincere intentions to stay holy in HIS sight, others put their faith in HIM and accepted the Son as their only saviour from condemnation to hell with a full intent to go their own way into sin after they were safe from condemnation, ie, after they became one of HIS elect, albeit, sinfully inclined.

HE knew their intent of course but since they gave HIM the right to go against their sinful wills and so save them by putting their faith in HIM as their saviour, HE accepted them anyway, planning their redemption on earth. The father did not expel the prodigal son even once he knew what was happening; He just waited for the son to return from sin city.

I think I agree...don't understand the firs part.
Here:

HE knew their intent of course but since they gave HIM the right to go against their sinful wills and so save them by putting their faith in HIM as their saviour, HE accepted them anyway, planning their redemption on earth. The father did not expel the prodigal son even once he knew what was happening; He just waited for the son to return from sin city.

 

[mailmandan]

No Dan...you gave no answer because you need this entire post as an answer..
which, in reality, is no answer at all but just you doubling down on a fact that every Christian knows: We do good works because we are saved. Again...of course this is true because the unsaved are not required to do good works.
It's the saved that are required to do good works.

I gave you an answer, but you just did not like my answer. You are trying to trap me into simply saying YES without any qualifications to make it look like I agree with you that works are necessary in order to maintain our salvation, which I disagree with. From beginning to end, faith is necessary for salvation. Works are the fruit of salvation but not the root of it.

In Matthew 7:24 Jesus speaks of a wise man and a foolish man.
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
The wise man hears the words of Jesus and ACTS on them.
Acting on the words of Jesus requires action on our part.
You say we do good works because we're saved.
OF COURSE.
That's not the point.
The point is:
Are we ACTING on the words of Jesus?
If a person is unwilling to state that we are required to do good works...
there must surely be a reason for this.
EVERY Christian should be doing what Jesus requires of us...
and should not be afraid to say that this is necessary.

It's a necessary part of our duty as a Christain (Luke 17:10) and our reasonable service. In regard to Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as you would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock, and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand, and it collapses.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:21-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ - John 17:3) which stemmed from refusing to believe in Him unto salvation. (John 6:40) The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand that the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness. Only those who truly believe in Jesus unto salvation are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them.

The foolish man did not act on the words of Jesus.
And His fall was great.

What was the heart of the foolish man's problem? Do you believe the foolish man was saved and had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?

We should be teaching what Jesus taught and not be afraid to say it.

Amen and Jesus did not teach salvation by works, but the Pharisees did.

Perhaps herein lies the problem at hand?
I've said many times that Jesus will NOT do it all for us.

Jesus did everything necessary to save us. Now that we are saved, we don't just sit back and do nothing as a Christian. Those who are born of God are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and have become partakers of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) We have been changed!

He went to the cross for us...
Now it's OUR turn to do something.
Salvation is a two-way street.
God offers us salvation....
and we must accept HIS terms without rewriting them to suit ourselves.

Ephesians 2:8,9 sums it right up. Now stop rewriting God's terms to suit yourself. We are not saved by works. Period.

So if you believe we are to do good works...
why not just state it simply without getting into word games?

I was not getting into word games. I was simply explaining why we do good works. Motivation of the heart is important.

It SOUNDS like you don't think doing good works is really necessary.

I told you what works are necessary FOR. I'm not buying into your cunning lawyer antics.

Synergism in theology regards the cooperation between man and God.
Jesus said that if we want to follow Him we must pick up our cross daily.
Luke 9:
23 And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily * and follow Me.
What do you think that cross is?
Or maybe there is no cross for us since Jesus did it all?

We pick up our cross and follow Jesus as His disciples BECAUSE we are saved and not in order to become saved.

In Revelation 3:20 Jesus is standing at the door and knocking.
WE have to open the door.

Of course we do. Salvation is a free gift that still must be received. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Philippians 2:12-15
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
God is at work in us so that we can prove ourselves to be blameless and children of God....appearing as lights in the world.
Does that sound like we need to do nothing?

Don't confuse ongoing sanctification with justification. Notice in Philippians 2:12 that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a transformed life in the person who has already been justified by faith. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1) Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

If you believe we are to DO SOMETHING...then state it plainly and simply.

We are to do something after we have been saved through faith in regard to ongoing sanctification but there is nothing, we could do to help Jesus save us. His finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) Just accept the truth.

Interesting.
So being called a fool by Jesus means nothing to you.
We could just become saved at some point...do nothing to advance the Kingdom....
not obey Jesus....but we will still merit our salvation.

Straw man argument.

Thanks for confirming what I stated...
you really do NOT believe good works are necessary.

Another straw man argument. I already explained what works are necessary FOR.

Faith only.
Faith ONLY is not biblical and all the verses regarding doing good works (of which I've posted many) will support this.

I don't teach salvation by "faith only" (James 2:24) which is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. (James 2:14) I teach that man is saved by grace through faith, not works, (saved through faith in Jesus Christ alone) yet believers have been made alive together with Christ, created in Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:5-10) so this faith is not a dead faith that produces no works.

Titus 2:14
14Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Amen!

Romans 2:6
He will render to each one according to his works:

I already covered Romans 2:6 and you need to read this verse in context in order to understand the descriptive language.

What a disasterous excuse for doing good!
We can't be perfect so we should just give up?

I never said anything about giving up and not doing good works. Your straw man arguments are progressing to blatant dishonesty and even slander. That is not a good look for you!

Again you prove your position.
You say we need a savior.
Doesn't every Christian believe this?
Are we debating THIS?
Or the need to do good works?

Yes, we need a Savior, and we are saved FOR good works but NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Do you agree, or do you believe we are saved BY good works? You obviously do in order to maintain salvation. I guess Jesus is not enough for you.

So, IOW,,,Jesus is going to do it all for you --- just as I've been stating.

Jesus lived a sinless perfect life, that I could never live, He died for my sins, was buried and rose again the third day to provide for me eternal life. (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 John 3:15; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) There is nothing I could do to add to that. His finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed. Now that I'm saved Jesus is not going to do good works for me and grow in grace for me while I just sit back and remain idol. Why don't you try being more honest and stop trying so hard to get an indictment.

And you debate like those witnesses who will not give a straight answer.

I gave you a straight answer with qualifications to your loaded question.

Here's the simple question again:

ARE BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS?

In post #168 you said - "Good works are required to maintain salvation" which is false. This is why I am not simply answering YES answer to your loaded question. If you really believe that, then your motivation to do good works is off base. I already explained that we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10) so good works are neither required to obtain or maintain salvation. Good works are required to glorify God. (Matthew 5:16) They are required to walk in to accomplish the good works that God prepared beforehand. (Ephesians 2:10) Good works are necessary to meet urgent needs, that we may not be unfruitful. (Titus 3:14) Good works are good and profitable unto men. (Titus 3:8)

Well, you finally understand.
Good works are FORCED onto the saved.

Another straw man argument. Your dishonesty and slander are becoming very disturbing.

Let's listen to Jesus again:
Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Jesus said the above...not me.
Only those who do the will of the Father will be admitted to live with the Father.
I suggest we start finding out what the will of the Father is and adhere to it and stop teaching that
good works are not necessary -or to put it your way- meritorious for heaven when JESUS Himself
stated that they are.

You just exposed yourself and Roman Catholics believe the same thing. What did Jesus say to these many people in Matthew 7:22 who trusted in their works for salvation? I never knew you. (vs. 23) Now getting back to Matthew 7:21, what is the will of the Father for us to obtain salvation? John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. What happened to works being meritorious for salvation (as you and Roman Catholics teach) here? Red flag!

Does you free will tell you not to do good works?

I don't have to be told to do good works. Good works are not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God, but they are for folks who believe they are meritorious for obtaining and/or maintaining salvation.

Sure Dan.
We're saved by faith.
What a merry-go-round you're on.
The end of our faith is salvation.
What comes in between?
Anything?

Ongoing sanctification.

What is faith anyway?
What does it mean to BELIEVE in Christ?
To BELIEVE means to follow.
To follow means to obey.

That is the Roman Catholic definition. To believe actually means to have faith in, trust in, reliance in. Following/obedience which "follows" having been saved through faith is works. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I basically defined faith as "obedience/works" as well.

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (KJV)
Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (NASB)

Strong's Lexicon
pistis: Faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity
Original Word: πίστις
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Pronunciation: PIS-tis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Definition: Faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity
Meaning: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

Usage: In the New Testament, "pistis" primarily denotes a conviction or belief in the truth of something, often with the implication of trust and reliance. It is used to describe the faith that believers have in God and Jesus Christ, encompassing both intellectual assent and trustful commitment. "Pistis" is foundational to the Christian life, as it is through faith that believers are justified and live out their relationship with God.

Strong's Greek: 4102. πίστις (pistis) -- Faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus said we're to do good works.
If we want to obey, we need to do good works.

Amen! I have no problem doing good works out of love and gratitude for my Savior and not out of pride and expectation of obtaining and/or maintaining salvation by works, as if my Savior is an IN-sufficient Savior who needs my help in saving me.

I see. So after we're saved we don't need to obey God's commands?
John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
So many verses on obedience....
But we like to make up our own rules instead of following those that Jesus left us with.

Don't confuse obeying the Son by choosing to believe in the Son (John 3:36) with obeying God's commands afterwards. I don't make up rules. You just desperately want to help save yourself by works and boast.

Salvation alone through Jesus is the same as Faith Alone.
Anyway, we're NOT DISCUSSING getting saved.

A bare profession of faith that remains "alone" barren of works (James 2:14) is not the same as faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Learn the difference. Works-salvationists just don't understand. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

We're discussing AFTER we get saved.

Your arguments culminate in type 2 works salvation. Salvation by works at the back door.

After justificaton comes sanctification.
It's the sanctification part we're discussing here.

I understand sanctification. Now is sanctification an event, a process or both? Sanctification is a great topic.

No Dan. Your incorrect understanding of scripture is becoming apparent.

That statement is the epitome of irony.

John 3:36, which I've posted several times because it's VERY important states that
IF WE DO NOT OBEY, God's WRATH will be upon us.
You're adding your own understanding to scripture.

Obey what is the question. As I already thoroughly explained to you. The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." To refuse to believe in the Son is to disobey, rebel, be disloyal and refuse conformity. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." *In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son. Which one does by believing in works for salvation instead of believing in the Son alone for salvation.

Let's look at it again:
John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
1. He who believes in the Son has eternal life.
See, the person is ALREADY SAVED.
If he believes in the Son he will have eternal life.

Believes IN THE SON and not in works.

2. BUT he who does not OBEY the son will not see life.
Because it means he doesn't really BELIEVE in the Son because those that believe will also FOLLOW and obey.

John 3:36 is not talking about obeying after salvation in order to maintain salvation by works but to obtain salvation by the obedient act of choosing to believe in the Son. Don't get ahead of yourself. You run ahead with the word obey and end up using it to teach salvation by works. Believeth not the Son/refuses to believe in the Son. That is the act of disobedience that leaves one condemned. Just like we read in John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Get the picture?

Obedience is absolutely necessary for salvation.

Well, how much obedience does it take? Since you teach salvation by works you surely must know what the passing grade is. Are we saved by grace through faith, not works, or are we saved by imperfect obedience? (Romans 3:23; 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9)

If a person becomes born again...
but then does not OBEY GOD...
the fellowship will come to an end.

OXYMORON. (1 John 3:7-10) Are you born again? If you say yes, then explain to me how you became born again.

The person will be denying God.
2 Timothy 2:12
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
If we don't obey God...we are denying Him by ignoring HIS rules.

Your arguments have salvation by works written all over them and this discussion is bringing back painful memories for me prior to my conversion while I was still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago. In regard to 2 Timothy 2:12-13, we see a contrast between believers and unbelievers. "If we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him -- AND -- If we deny Him, He also will deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

"By contrast, the latter "deny Him and faithless" point to the opposite of died with Him, endure and reign with Him. Jesus Himself warned of the danger of denying Him in Matthew 10:33 - "But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven." To "deny him" here does not point merely to a temporary weakness of faith, as in the case of Peter who denied Jesus three times during a moment of weakness (Luke 22:54-62) but is referring to life in its entirety. The inevitable result is that "He will also deny us."

The warning is repeated in the final sentence, "if we are faithless, he abides faithful." To be "faithless" is in the present tense and denotes this as the habitual attitude, not a temporary lapse of faith. But in contrast to human faithlessness, "He remains faithful," faithful to His word and righteous character and His warning that unbelievers will be rejected.

Really Dan...you do add to scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

That's your job and it's called eisegesis.

I explained this above.
Like I said...unbelievers do not need to obey the Son.
They're already lost.
John 3:36 is to believers.

Unbelievers need to obey the Son by choosing to believe in the Son for salvation. (John 3:18) If they refuse to obey by refusing to believe then they will remain lost. (John 3:36) Since you teach salvation by works you continue to stumble over John 3:36.

Correct!
To not believe means to disobey.
As I've said BELIEVE means to follow..
to follow means to obey.

To refuse to believe in the Son is the act of disobedience that condemns. (John 3:36) Not to be confused with multiple other acts of disobedience which follow and are a manifestation of unbelief. After we are saved, we obey Jesus by following Him. Not to get or remain saved but BECAUSE we are saved. You continue to confuse the fruit of belief with the essence of belief.

As I stated above...
if we do not obey the Son, we are denying God.

If you don't believe in the Son for salvation, then you have not obeyed the Son unto salvation. Beyond that there is no real obedience because without faith it's impossible to please God.

What does this have to do with anything?
Want to discuss the OT?
Were they all lost because Jesus was not glorified yet??

It has everything to do with not being in the body of Christ yet under the new covenant. They were not all lost, but they were not yet baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13) and sealed with the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

This is comparing the Holy Spirit of the OT with the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit in the NT.
Want to get into this?
What's the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant?
I'd suggest sticking to the topic at hand since the answers will NOT support your ideas.

Without getting too deep into this. I will simply compare the Holy Spirit of the OT with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the NT. There is a difference between the role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament and in the New Testament in regard to "indwelling." The New Testament teaches the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5). When we believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation, we are sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 1:13) The apostle Paul calls this permanent indwelling the “guarantee of our inheritance.” (Ephesians 1:14)

In contrast to this permanent indwelling in the New Testament, the indwelling in the Old Testament was selective and temporary. The Holy Spirit “came upon” such Old Testament people as Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Holy Spirit “coming upon” these various judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors. The Holy Spirit did not permanently indwell them/seal them, but instead, came upon these individuals for specific tasks. So, while in the New Testament the Holy Spirit only indwells believers and that indwelling is permanent, the Holy Spirit came upon certain individuals in the Old Testament for a specific task and not to permanently seal them in the body of Christ.

So those in the OT did nothing of any value?

Straw man argument. How many is that now? You must find this entertaining.

I don't know what you mean by self-attached.
John 15 states that if we do NOT BEAR FRUIT we will be CUT OFF AND BURNED.

Lack of spiritual and vital connection to the vine. Judas Iscariot is a good example. "Nominal" Christians/make believers are not good trees that bear good fruit. So, who is it that bears no fruit at all? Faith without works is dead. Genuine Christians have a living faith that produces good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) So, again I ask, who is it that bears no fruit at all? Genuine Christians or pseudo-Christians?

I'd try to read the bible simply and not add my own thoughts to it.

Too late for that.

John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

Every branch THAT DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT....
God TAKES AWAY.

Simple.

Very simple as long as you don't get confused about the "in Me" part which is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that spiritual and vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off. Descriptive of "nominal" Christians/make believers.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes good works and fruit are not only required but evidence one is saved and a follower of Christ. You will know them by their fruits. We are Gods workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works. Faith without works is dead.

In this context fruit and good works are synonyms.

The Abundant life one that is a fruitful life. We can learn many truths from Gods creation and the way He designed things to work.

God created plants to fruit and propagate themselves. Jesus cursed the fig tree. Why? It was green but did not bear fruit so He cursed the tree. A good tree brings forth good fruit. You will know them by their fruits. God is life and created man and plants to bring forth life. I came that you might have life and life abundantly. A fruitful life is Gods design for us. The Fruit of the Spirit in us is our evidence we have life (the Spiritual life, born of the Spirit) which God created us for His good works that He prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. We are Gods workmanship created for that purpose.

Yes, good works are required in that regard. Great explanation! We could say that good works are the required evidence of salvation. We will know them by their fruits and a good tree does bring forth good fruit. Faith without works is dead. So, good works are the fruit and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

We are saved by grace through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10) So, we are saved FOR good works but not by good works. The danger is when folks say that good works are required to either obtain or maintain salvation, which equates to salvation by works/works righteousness. (Romans 4:4-6; 11:6)

 

[civic]

Yes, good works are required in that regard. Great explanation! We could say that good works are the required evidence of salvation. We will know them by their fruits and a good tree does bring forth good fruit. Faith without works is dead. So, good works are the fruit and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

We are saved by grace through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10) So, we are saved FOR good works but not by good works. The danger is when folks say that good works are required to either obtain or maintain salvation, which equates to salvation by works/works righteousness. (Romans 4:4-6; 11:6)

Amen

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, good works are required in that regard. Great explanation! We could say that good works are the required evidence of salvation. We will know them by their fruits and a good tree does bring forth good fruit. Faith without works is dead. So, good works are the fruit and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

We are saved by grace through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10) So, we are saved FOR good works but not by good works. The danger is when folks say that good works are required to either obtain or maintain salvation, which equates to salvation by works/works righteousness. (Romans 4:4-6; 11:6)

Good works are required to maintain your salvation and I've posted MANY verses and scriptural evidence
which you deny.

If James is WARNING people that faith without works is a dead faith....
it means that the WARNING was required because this is an important topic.

NO GOOD WORKS = NO SALVATION.

If we do not obey God....we forfeit our salvation.

Again...an unbeliever IS NOT REQUIRED to do good works.
ONLY
believers ARE REQUIRED to do good works.

You could circle this tree all you want to...
But this is what the NT teaches.

Who do you think John 3:36 is addressed to?
Those who believe will be saved.
Those who DO NOT OBEY will have the wrath of God on them.

It's addressed to believers.

 

[mailmandan]

Good works are required to maintain your salvation and I've posted MANY verses and scriptural evidence
which you deny.

Show me the words "maintain salvation" in scripture. You posted scripture but then applied your EISEGESIS. That is not scriptural evidence.

If James is WARNING people that faith without works is a dead faith....
it means that the WARNING was required because this is an important topic.

NO GOOD WORKS = NO SALVATION.

No good works at all demonstrates no genuine faith which = no salvation. James is discussing the evidence of faith. Says/claims to have faith but has no works. Can that faith save him? (James 2:14) What kind of faith is that? Empty profession of faith/dead faith. James said I will show you my faith by my works. (James 2:18)

If we do not obey God....we forfeit our salvation.

Show me the words "forfeit salvation" in scripture. Now how much obedience does it take to remain saved? How many good works must you accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Jesus keep you saved?

Again...an unbeliever IS NOT REQUIRED to do good works.

Yet unbelievers set out to do good works anyway in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. (Matthew 7:22-23)

ONLY
believers ARE REQUIRED to do good works.

Genuine believers are required to do good works (Ephesians 2:10) for the right reasons and with the right motivation. (Matthew 5:16; Ephesians 2:10; Titus 3:8, 14)) Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6) and not through legalism.

You could circle this tree all you want to...
But this is what the NT teaches.

I know what the NT teaches aside from your EISEGESIS.

Who do you think John 3:36 is addressed to?
Those who believe will be saved.
Those who DO NOT OBEY will have the wrath of God on them.

Those who have chosen to believe in the Son have obeyed. (John 3:36) Those who refuse to believe (John 3:18) have not obeyed and will have the wrath of God on them. Just as we see in Romans 10:16, they have not obeyed the gospel by refusing to believe the gospel. Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow believing the gospel.

It's addressed to believers.

All the books in the NT are addressed to believers but that does not mean that everyone who professes to be a believer is a genuine believer. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together in the Bible, in various churches today and on various Christian forum sites.

 

[TedT]

Agreed. Did I say this?

You didn't. I emphasised it not to refute you but to show to all it is an absolute bedrock idea to my theological understanding of reality to counter all the "acceptable" and accepted ideas about how we got to be sinful...our sin cannot have come from GOD in any way except by offering us the choice to become holy or sinful.

You reject that man was stained with the sin of Adam?
It states this in
Romans 5:12
12 Therefore , just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned ...

Yes because this verse is oft interpreted to mean what you repeat here but it in fact does not say it at all! It does not say when we became sinners but only that death came to all men for our sin because we have all sinned, that is, already!

This idea is aso hinted at in John 3:18
Berean Standard Bible
Whoever believes in Him is not condemned [for his sinfulness], but whoever does not believe has ALREADY been condemned, because he has not [ever] believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
When did already start? Before the foundation of the world when some were elected and others left to condemnation?

If you're saying that man is born innocent, then I agree.
If a baby dies he doesn't go to hell because he has not committed any sin yet.

Hell is not the wages of sin, death is.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death...
with
James 1:15
Berean Standard Bible
Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death...ie, not hell.

Only sinners die, except Christ. Since infants of every age, die, then infants of every age must be sinners. Whether they go to heaven to be with GOD or are condemned already is set by their relationship to GOD as HIS sheep, HIS seeds, the sinful people of HIS kingdom, HIS elect by their already made free will decision to accept HIM as their Lord and Saviour OR as demonic reprobate condemned already for having never put their faith in HIM at all, believing HIM to be a liar and therefore a false god since before the foundation of the world.

In Mark 2:17 Berean Literal Bible
"I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." and then applied this reasoning to children in Matt 19:14 But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
Why were the children being shooed away? Because they were rowdy and interfering or because people thought they were not sinners and so needed no saviour ? an idea He squelched.

IF all infants who die go to heaven then why does HE allow anyone to grow to the age where they do not go to heaven? Why were we, me and thee, not in the go to heaven early club but had to live here in suffering and then die? It seems like HE does have favourites after all, eh?

Let me ask you this then:
If everyone is allowed to sin if they want to....
WHY do they want to?
A stained soul would not be a good reason for you?

When GOD proclaimed HIS deity and HIS eternal gospel of salvation by faith (not proof) to every person under heaven, Col 1:23, ie, ever created, HE created us with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose to put our faith in HIS proclamation to be true or to reject HIM and HIS heavenly purpose by putting our faith against HIM as a liar and therefore a false god.

The fact that GOD must have NOT given the proof yet of HIS divinity and eternal power (Rom 1:18-20), is seen because seeing the proof of HIS divinity would destroy anyone's desire to reject HIS proclamation. Only without proof can someone contend he is just as high as El Shaddai or rather, that YHWH is just as ordinary as everyone else so he was lying from an obvious megalomania and hubris. Proof destroys our free will in this choice of faith.

This is the sinful desire of the Satanic, to be like god in their hearts,
Berean Standard Bible
James 1:15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

But there IS a source of darkness, right?

The source of sin is found in the desires of the Satanic heart to be like GOD but since they knew they were not like what HE proclaimed to be they sought to bring HIM down to their level and even below them for as the first lying sinner in all creation he must therefore be the most evil person in all creation.

The sins of the elect, those who believed HIS proclamation of HIS deity and the gospel as truth, came from their desire to see their friends who rebuked YHWH to not be condemned to hell and so they rebelled against GOD's righteous judgment and so become sinners themselves...

What scripture makes you believe we are NOT born fallen?

Every scripture that hints that GOD is holy and does not change. HE cannot create evil so if our birth is our creation then we had to be unfallen at that point, not enslaved to sin and not liable to death.

OK. But, again, what causes man to choose evil?
Somehow evil is in our creation.

Every man chooses sin because he is a sinner when he is sown (not created) into this world, Matt 13:36-39, and so enslaved to sin and by his own work, cannot save himself.

Evil is not in our creation in any way shape or form. GOD is light and cannot abide the dark but must destroy it so how can HE BE CREATING WHAT HE HATES AND DESTROYING IT AT THE SAME TIME??? The mind boggles as we used to say...sigh.

WE are conceived in sin because our conception is NOT our creation but only the method we are sown into this world as already sinners,Matt 13:36-39.

 

[GodsGrace]

Show me the words "maintain salvation" in scripture. You posted scripture but then applied your EISEGESIS. That is not scriptural evidence.

No good works at all demonstrates no genuine faith which = no salvation. James is discussing the evidence of faith. Says/claims to have faith but has no works. Can that faith save him? (James 2:14) What kind of faith is that? Empty profession of faith/dead faith. James said I will show you my faith by my works. (James 2:18)

Show me the words "forfeit salvation" in scripture. Now how much obedience does it take to remain saved? How many good works must you accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Jesus keep you saved?

Yet unbelievers set out to do good works anyway in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. (Matthew 7:22-23)

Genuine believers are required to do good works (Ephesians 2:10) for the right reasons and with the right motivation. (Matthew 5:16; Ephesians 2:10; Titus 3:8, 14)) Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6) and not through legalism.

I know what the NT teaches aside from your EISEGESIS.

Those who have chosen to believe in the Son have obeyed. (John 3:36) Those who refuse to believe (John 3:18) have not obeyed and will have the wrath of God on them. Just as we see in Romans 10:16, they have not obeyed the gospel by refusing to believe the gospel. Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow believing the gospel.

All the books in the NT are addressed to believers but that does not mean that everyone who professes to be a believer is a genuine believer. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together in the Bible, in various churches today and on various Christian forum sites.

Oh for goodness sake Dan.
Show me the word TRINITY in scripture.
Show me the word HYPOSTATIC UNION in scripture.

You want to discuss OSAS now?
OK...
Here are your verses:

Please explain to me what they mean....

1 Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
Revelation 2:4-5
4 'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
5 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place -unless * you repent.
Hebrews 3:12
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.


You state that a person is not required to do good works.
You state that once a person is saved they will always be saved.
THIS IS A DANGEROUS COMBINATION....
and IS NOT what the NT teaches.
The NT teaches that we to obey God or we can FALL AWAY.

There are many more verses such as the above where we are WARNED about loosing our faith.
Before you throw verses back at me which will not mean what you think they mean...

PLEASE explain away the above first. (which is the method I always us because my verses are in alignment with the NT)

Yes Dan.
One of us MUST BE WRONG.
You are leading some to be lost and condemned.
James 3:1
1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

 

[GodsGrace]

You didn't. I emphasised it not to refute you but to show to all it is an absolute bedrock idea to my theological understanding of reality to counter all the "acceptable" and accepted ideas about how we got to be sinful...our sin cannot have come from GOD in any way except by offering us the choice to become holy or sinful.

Only the reformed believe sin comes from God.
No other denomination does.

Yes because this verse is oft interpreted to mean what you repeat here but it in fact does not say it at all! It does not say when we became sinners but only that death came to all men for our sin because we have all sinned, that is, already!

Romans 5:12 is a bit messed up anyway because it was translated incorrectly by Jerome --- from the Greek to the Latin --- but it doesn't matter very much because of other writings by Paul.

It simply states that men die because men sin....
there was no death if Adam had obeyed...
but now there is.

This idea is aso hinted at in John 3:18
Berean Standard Bible
Whoever believes in Him is not condemned [for his sinfulness], but whoever does not believe has ALREADY been condemned, because he has not [ever] believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
When did already start? Before the foundation of the world when some were elected and others left to condemnation?

No. ALREADY starts when a person becomes of an age that he can be accountable for his actions.
A two year old cannot sin because he doesn't know what sin is.
In order to sin, a person must know he is sinning.

Hell is not the wages of sin, death is.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death...
with
James 1:15
Berean Standard Bible
Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death...ie, not hell.

Do you now want to discuss whether or not hell exists?
Paul means that we die because we sin....just like in Romans 5:12

This is simple and does not require too much understanding.

Only sinners die, except Christ. Since infants of every age, die, then infants of every age must be sinners.

Gosh Ted.
Adam brought DEATH INTO THE WORLD.
He was supposed to be immortal but he sinned.
His sin brought death,,,,just as Romans 5:12 states.

You're really making this much more complicated than it is.
INFANTS CANNOT SIN.

Whether they go to heaven to be with GOD or are condemned already is set by their relationship to GOD as HIS sheep, HIS seeds, the sinful people of HIS kingdom,

God's Kingdom doesn't have sinful people in it.

HIS elect by their already made free will decision to accept HIM as their Lord and Saviour OR as demonic reprobate condemned already for having never put their faith in HIM at all, believing HIM to be a liar and therefore a false god since before the foundation of the world.

The word REPROBATE is used by the reformed.
Are you coming out of calvinism and trying to understand?

In Mark 2:17 Berean Literal Bible
"I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." and then applied this reasoning to children in Matt 19:14 But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
Why were the children being shooed away? Because they were rowdy and interfering or because people thought they were not sinners and so needed no saviour ? an idea He squelched.

Because the children were bothering Jesus. He had just finished preaching and he was tired.
His Apostles were trying to be helpful....
the fact that Jesus said that heaven is made of those like these (the children) is proof positive that children to not sin
and are heaven-bound.

Children DO NOT NEED a Savior.

Jesus did not come for the righteous....those RIGHT WITH GOD. They were already saved.
He came to save sinners...to explain to them HOW to become saved.

IF all infants who die go to heaven then why does HE allow anyone to grow to the age where they do not go to heaven? Why were we, me and thee, not in the go to heaven early club but had to live here in suffering and then die? It seems like HE does have favourites after all, eh?

Ah. I see. You don't really want to be here ....yes....heaven is better.
But we can't understand everything 100%.
We can only know what God has taught us and live the best that we can knowing that one day
we will be joyful to be with our Savior and never have to get sick again or die again.

It's like you said...God allows us to grow up...but He has also given us the free will to choose Him
and to choose to be with Him forever.

When GOD proclaimed HIS deity and HIS eternal gospel of salvation by faith (not proof) to every person under heaven, Col 1:23, ie, ever created, HE created us with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose to put our faith in HIS proclamation to be true or to reject HIM and HIS heavenly purpose by putting our faith against HIM as a liar and therefore a false god.

Yes. Well, there is proof and that would be the resurrection.
If you believe in the resurrection, then that would be your proof.

The fact that GOD must have NOT given the proof yet of HIS divinity and eternal power (Rom 1:18-20), is seen because seeing the proof of HIS divinity would destroy anyone's desire to reject HIS proclamation. Only without proof can someone contend he is just as high as El Shaddai or rather, that YHWH is just as ordinary as everyone else so he was lying from an obvious megalomania and hubris. Proof destroys our free will in this choice of faith.

No Ted. Many refuse God and for many different reasons.
Some even believe that God exists but they refuse Him anyway.

This is the sinful desire of the Satanic, to be like god in their hearts,
Berean Standard Bible
James 1:15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.


The source of sin is found in the desires of the Satanic heart to be like GOD but since they knew they were not like what HE proclaimed to be they sought to bring HIM down to their level and even below them for as the first lying sinner in all creation he must therefore be the most evil person in all creation.

You could believe this.
It's why Adam sinned.
And yes, of course satan is the most evil person.

The sins of the elect, those who believed HIS proclamation of HIS deity and the gospel as truth, came from their desire to see their friends who rebuked YHWH to not be condemned to hell and so they rebelled against GOD's righteous judgment and so become sinners themselves...


Every scripture that hints that GOD is holy and does not change. HE cannot create evil so if our birth is our creation then we had to be unfallen at that point, not enslaved to sin and not liable to death.


Every man chooses sin because he is a sinner when he is sown (not created) into this world, Matt 13:36-39, and so enslaved to sin and by his own work, cannot save himself.

Evil is not in our creation in any way shape or form. GOD is light and cannot abide the dark but must destroy it so how can HE BE CREATING WHAT HE HATES AND DESTROYING IT AT THE SAME TIME??? The mind boggles as we used to say...sigh.

WE are conceived in sin because our conception is NOT our creation but only the method we are sown into this world as already sinners,Matt 13:36-39.

Ted....you spend too much time thinking about sin and satan and evil.
This is not healthy.

Read Philippians 4:8 and then do it.
Take your eyes off satan and sin, and put them on God.

8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.

 

[GodsGrace]

Show me the words "maintain salvation" in scripture. You posted scripture but then applied your EISEGESIS. That is not scriptural evidence.

No good works at all demonstrates no genuine faith which = no salvation. James is discussing the evidence of faith. Says/claims to have faith but has no works. Can that faith save him? (James 2:14) What kind of faith is that? Empty profession of faith/dead faith. James said I will show you my faith by my works. (James 2:18)

Show me the words "forfeit salvation" in scripture. Now how much obedience does it take to remain saved? How many good works must you accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Jesus keep you saved?

Yet unbelievers set out to do good works anyway in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. (Matthew 7:22-23)

PS
How does this work?
An unbeliever wants to be saved...
so he does good works.....

And this denies his salvation by our merciful God??

It's necessary that someone understands THEOLOGY in order to be saved?

Incredible.

And when I post scirpture...I post scripture.
It's there in black and white.
You could not believe it,,,
but please don't tell me it's eisegesis.

Perhaps YOU came to the bible with preconceived notions...
I did NOT.

Genuine believers are required to do good works (Ephesians 2:10) for the right reasons and with the right motivation. (Matthew 5:16; Ephesians 2:10; Titus 3:8, 14)) Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6) and not through legalism.

I know what the NT teaches aside from your EISEGESIS.

Those who have chosen to believe in the Son have obeyed. (John 3:36) Those who refuse to believe (John 3:18) have not obeyed and will have the wrath of God on them. Just as we see in Romans 10:16, they have not obeyed the gospel by refusing to believe the gospel. Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow believing the gospel.

All the books in the NT are addressed to believers but that does not mean that everyone who professes to be a believer is a genuine believer. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together in the Bible, in various churches today and on various Christian forum sites.

 

[mailmandan]

Oh for goodness sake Dan.
Show me the word TRINITY in scripture.
Show me the word HYPOSTATIC UNION in scripture.

You want to discuss OSAS now?
OK...
Here are your verses:

Please explain to me what they mean....

1 Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
Revelation 2:4-5
4 'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
5 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place -unless * you repent.
Hebrews 3:12
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

You state that a person is not required to do good works.
You state that once a person is saved they will always be saved.
THIS IS A DANGEROUS COMBINATION....
and IS NOT what the NT teaches.
The NT teaches that we to obey God or we can FALL AWAY.

There are many more verses such as the above where we are WARNED about loosing our faith.
Before you throw verses back at me which will not mean what you think they mean...

PLEASE explain away the above first. (which is the method I always us because my verses are in alignment with the NT)

Yes Dan.
One of us MUST BE WRONG.
You are leading some to be lost and condemned.
James 3:1
1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. That sounds familiar and nothing is mentioned here about losing saving faith in Christ and losing salvation. That is your eisegesis.

The words "the faith" in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless, will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again.

We also read about "the faith" in the book of Jude, in which Jude exhorts believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. (vs. 19) In CONTRAST with those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ. (vs. 1)

So, why do such people depart? 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

In regard to the church in Ephesus in Revelation 2, clearly the Lord wanted the church at Ephesus to repent, to change their minds regarding their works. "You have left your first love" (verse 4). "Repent and do the first works" (verse 5). Works of love no longer characterized the church as a whole in Ephesus. In verses 2 and 6, we see that the church in Ephesus was not totally displeasing to the Lord, yet hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans and standing up for doctrinal purity still cannot be a substitute for the depth of love it once had for the Lord. So, what did the Lord mean when He spoke of removing the church's lamp stand if the church in Ephesus did not repent? The removal of the lampstand is clearly figurative language. This does not mean that individuals in the church at Ephesus will lose their salvation, but that the church there can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness, which apparently it did. Ephesus (located in modern day Turkey) is now dominated by Islam.

In regard to Hebrews 3:12, in context, we read in verses 8-10 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing, but DID NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have hold fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Once again, holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

There are genuine Christians and "nominal" Christians mixed together throughout the book of Hebrews. In Hebrews 4:1-3, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

In Hebrews 6:9, the writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

In Hebrews 10:39, we read - But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God. The NASB reads - comes short of the grace of God.. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Not a loss of salvation here but a failure to obtain it.

 

[Johann]

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. That sounds familiar and nothing is mentioned here about losing saving faith in Christ and losing salvation. That is your eisegesis.

The words "the faith" in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless, will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again.

We also read about "the faith" in the book of Jude, in which Jude exhorts believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. (vs. 19) In CONTRAST with those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ. (vs. 1)

So, why do such people depart? 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

In regard to the church in Ephesus in Revelation 2, clearly the Lord wanted the church at Ephesus to repent, to change their minds regarding their works. "You have left your first love" (verse 4). "Repent and do the first works" (verse 5). Works of love no longer characterized the church as a whole in Ephesus. In verses 2 and 6, we see that the church in Ephesus was not totally displeasing to the Lord, yet hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans and standing up for doctrinal purity still cannot be a substitute for the depth of love it once had for the Lord. So, what did the Lord mean when He spoke of removing the church's lamp stand if the church in Ephesus did not repent? The removal of the lampstand is clearly figurative language. This does not mean that individuals in the church at Ephesus will lose their salvation, but that the church there can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness, which apparently it did. Ephesus (located in modern day Turkey) is now dominated by Islam.

In regard to Hebrews 3:12, in context, we read in verses 8-10 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing, but DID NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have hold fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Once again, holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

There are genuine Christians and "nominal" Christians mixed together throughout the book of Hebrews. In Hebrews 4:1-3, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

In Hebrews 6:9, the writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

In Hebrews 10:39, we read - But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God. The NASB reads - comes short of the grace of God.. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Not a loss of salvation here but a failure to obtain it.

This is well presented @mailmandan.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. That sounds familiar and nothing is mentioned here about losing saving faith in Christ and losing salvation. That is your eisegesis.

Exactly as I've stated.
You only apply the scripture that suits you.
It does NOT MATTER WHY they will depart...
the point of 1 Timothy 4:1 is that Paul is stating THAT SOME WILL DEPART
and he even states the departing from what:
THE FAITH.

If you depart from the faith....FOR WHATEVER REASON....you will no longer have faith.
If you no longer have faith....are you saved??

There are many doctrines of demons...these are THE REASONS.
If you believe them....you will depart from the faith...THIS IS THE OUTCOME.

And please stop using the word eisegesis.
What do you THINK I'm posting that is NOT mainline Christianity?

I hope you know that most denominations do NOT believe in OSAS.
I hope you know that this was NEVER TAUGHT until about the 1800's.

The words "the faith" in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless, will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again.

Is there a different type of faith that Paul was speaking about?
It was indeed the Apostolic faith.
THIS is the faith that Paul taught saved us.
THIS is the faith from which a person can depart.
Depart means: TO LEAVE.
If we LEAVE the faith...the CHRISTIAN faith....we are as lost as before we accepted it.

Oh. And they were never saved to begin with card.
Won't work Dan.

YOU even agreed that they are departing from THE FAITH.
It means THEY HAD THE FAITH...
but are now DEPARTING FROM IT.

Simple English.

We also read about "the faith" in the book of Jude, in which Jude exhorts believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. (vs. 19) In CONTRAST with those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ. (vs. 1)

And who is causing division here?
A person that believes what the church has ALWAYS beleived
or
A person that believes a doctrine that came about in the 1800's?

You correctly state that Jude exhorts BELEIVERS to contend for the faith.

Jude 1:3-5
3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
What does the above state:

Verse 3: Beloved.....Jude is writing to fellow believers, to those loved by God Father ...verse 1
Jude was writing to them about this salvation that they have in common.
Jude is telling them to contend.....to fight....for this faith, which was handed down.
Contend means to fight to keep...to struggle to maintain.

Yes. WE all must contend for our faith because it is in danger of strange beliefs which were not in the church.
OSAS would be one of them....a doctrine that did not come about till 200 years ago...it has crept into the church
and practically unnoticed.

Verse 4: Some have crept into the church, as had been warned beforehand even by Paul.
And for what...to spread licentiousness...such as the kind of life that some believe they could live and still be saved.
This kind of life denies Jesus Christ. If we do not obey...we deny God Himself.

Verse 5: Jude is reminding the believers that God led the Israelites out of Egypt...God saved them out of Egypt...
and then God destroyed those that did not believe.

I think you know that in Greek the word BELIEVE means to entrust yourself to: To have faith in: To follow.....
which simply means TO OBEY.

It is NECESSARY TO OBEY GOD or it means we do not believe in Him.
If we do not believe in Him, He will deny us.

So, why do such people depart? 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Have you studied any history?
In 1 John 2:19 John was referring to gnostics that had infiltrated the Christians.

This won't work for you idea that THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH.

Nice argument....but not valid.

Jesus Himself stated that the Prodigal son WAS LOST
and is FOUND AGAIN.........Again means the son was saved....lost....saved AGAIN.
Luke 15:24
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.
Maybe you don't even believe Jesus?

In regard to the church in Ephesus in Revelation 2, clearly the Lord wanted the church at Ephesus to repent, to change their minds regarding their works. "You have left your first love" (verse 4). "Repent and do the first works" (verse 5). Works of love no longer characterized the church as a whole in Ephesus. In verses 2 and 6, we see that the church in Ephesus was not totally displeasing to the Lord, yet hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans and standing up for doctrinal purity still cannot be a substitute for the depth of love it once had for the Lord. So, what did the Lord mean when He spoke of removing the church's lamp stand if the church in Ephesus did not repent? The removal of the lampstand is clearly figurative language. This does not mean that individuals in the church at Ephesus will lose their salvation, but that the church there can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness, which apparently it did. Ephesus (located in modern day Turkey) is now dominated by Islam.

I'm not even answering this.
It's nonsense.
What lengths will you go to in order to think you're right.
The lampstand is figurative! Are you serious? Do you think someone thinks it's LITERAL?
OF COURSE it's figurative....but it means that something is going TO BE REMOVED.

Read it again:

Revelation 2:2-5
2 'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot * tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;
Jesus knew their deeds...their good works...their perseverance.
3 and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary.
4 'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
Their first love was the deeds and the toiling and the perseverance.
They loved Jesus and did all this for Him...but now their love was waning, their good deeds for each other were waning.
Jesus holds this against them.
5 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place -unless * you repent.
We see here the idea of falling...falling from what?
Whatever you think it is...
Jesus is telling them TO REPENT and to do THE DEEDS they did at first...
OR ELSE Jesus will go to them and remove the lampstand UNLESS they repent.

They need to repent AGAIN since they WERE SAVED TO BEGIN WITH.

In regard to Hebrews 3:12, in context, we read in verses 8-10 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it.

Hebrews 3:12
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

The Israelites were not all saved.
No news there.

But read Hebrews 3 which is a warning....
Paul (or the writer) states to be careful that an evil and unbelieving heart does NOT FALL AWAY from the living God.

Dan....in order for something to fall...it has to be on something.
Anything that falls,,,,falls from somewhere.
Here Paul is speaking about FALLING AWAY FROM THE LIVING GOD.

What happens if we're not abiding with the living God?
We're like the branches in John 15 that are CUT OFF FROM THE TREE (GOD) and burned.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

We're not discussing hardened hearts here.
YOU are stating that THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH.

I'M showing you that THEY WERE SAVED but have FALLEN AWAY.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing, but DID NOT BELIEVE.

Answered above. This is irrelevant after all the scripture I went through.
WE KNOW that Israelites did not enter due to unbelief.

I'm quoting scripture that SUPPORTS that the person BELIEVED
but FELL AWAY.

When a person can't see what is plainly before their eyes,,,this is truly eisegesis.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have hold fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Once again, holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

There are genuine Christians and "nominal" Christians mixed together throughout the book of Hebrews. In Hebrews 4:1-3, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

In Hebrews 6:9, the writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

In Hebrews 10:39, we read - But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God. The NASB reads - comes short of the grace of God.. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Not a loss of salvation here but a failure to obtain it.

Almost midnight here.
It would just be more of the same.

You cannot bring preconceived ideas to scripture.
You must read it and accept what it states.
OSAS was NOT part of the church....EVER.
It was invented in the 1800's.
It's a new idea...just like the JWs, and other doctrine.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Calvinists believe the “perseverance of the saints” (the P in TULIP) offers them eternal security, but in actuality, it brings them more insecurity than ever regarding their salvation. Here, the persevering is left up to the strength of the believer rather than resting on the promises of God that assure us eternal life is based on what He has already done, not what we do. It is our part to believe, repent, and put our trust in Him and His part to save and preserve us.

None Dare Call It Heresy: Spotlight on the Life and Teachings of John Calvin

In actuality?
What do you mean by “in actuality”, my brother?
In actuality… Is the depression, anxiety, divorce, loss of job and suicide rate of Calvinists higher than other Christian groups? If we don’t not, how could we speak of their insecurity regarding their salvation?

Dear readers:
This is an example of how theological debate gets us so easily detached from actuality.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Perhaps YOU came to the bible with preconceived notions...
I did NOT.

Well, I loved your post…but I beg to differ in your last sentence. We all come to the Bible with preconceived notions… including you…and that’s not bad in itself. Some preconceived notions are in fact not only good… but necessary.

 

[TedT]

Well, I loved your post…but I beg to differ in your last sentence. We all come to the Bible with preconceived notions… including you…and that’s not bad in itself. Some preconceived notions are in fact not only good… but necessary.

Well, I agree with this...

The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions.