What is the difference between eternal security, once saved always saved, and perseverance of the saints?

[mailmandan]

I realize you hold a traditional Protestant position. I know, because I have been one. I don't choose between doctrines of men. I have my own beliefs.

I said much more than what you're addressing. If you will include those words, it will make sense to you.

All passages are "prescriptive" relative to revelation. You've bought into the excuses of men.

So when do you except a tree to fruit?

Well, I am certainly not a Roman Catholic and I do not hold to doctrines of men, particularly, salvation by works. There are 'descriptive' passages of scripture and 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. No excuses of men here. You just don't understand. Also, it does not take a lifetime in order for a good tree to produce good fruit.

 

[mailmandan]

Thanks for posting scripture that supports ME Dan.
Very thoughtful of you!

Not so fast.

Your very verse: EVERY TREE THAT DOES NOT BEAR GOOD FRUIT IS CUT DOWN.
I'd say that's descriptive AND prescriptive.

Why doesn't this tree bear good fruit? Because it is a bad tree. (Matthew 7:17) Not bearing fruit is 'descriptive' of a bad tree. Unbelief is the root of the problem here which is prescriptive. (John 3:18)

GOD WILL RENDER TO EACH ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
Yes...I think that means that we are TO DO good deeds.
I'd say that's prescriptive.

Roman Catholics would agree with you because they also teach salvation by works and if one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it is imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved as described by the conduct of their lives and it's the same with the lost. These good works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we obtain salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation.

*If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved by grace through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). Are you beginning to understand yet?

So we're going to argue about two words when speaking about the teachings of JESUS??
What is John 3:16?
Calvinists believe it's descriptive.
YOU think it's prescriptive.
See....it's nonsense.

Once you come to understand that we are saved by grace through faith, not works, and saved for good works but not by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10) then we will no longer be arguing. But I won't hold my breath. I don't believe that God fatalistically determines who will and won't believe in Jesus in order to receive eternal life. We must choose to believe in Jesus unto salvation, so as you can see, I am not a Calvinist. Receiving eternal life is conditioned on man choosing to believe in Jesus unto salvation, so it is prescriptive.

 

[GodsGrace]

I already gave you an answer. It's just not the answer that you wanted to hear.

No Dan...you gave no answer because you need this entire post as an answer..
which, in reality, is no answer at all but just you doubling down on a fact that every Christian knows:
We do good works because we are saved.
Again...of course this is true because the unsaved are not required to do good works.
It's the saved that are required to do good works.

In Matthew 7:24 Jesus speaks of a wise man and a foolish man.
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
The wise man hears the words of Jesus and ACTS on them.
Acting on the words of Jesus requires action on our part.
You say we do good works because we're saved.
OF COURSE.
That's not the point.
The point is:
Are we ACTING on the words of Jesus?
If a person is unwilling to state that we are required to do good works...
there must surely be a reason for this.
EVERY Christian should be doing what Jesus requires of us...
and should not be afraid to say that this is necessary.

The foolish man did not act on the words of Jesus.
And His fall was great.

We should be teaching what Jesus taught and not be afraid to say it.

Your question is loaded as demonstrated by your straw man argument - "you really don't believe we need to do ANY good works" which is not what I said. I'm depending 100% on Jesus Christ to save me. His finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers.

Perhaps herein lies the problem at hand?
I've said many times that Jesus will NOT do it all for us.
He went to the cross for us...
Now it's OUR turn to do something.
Salvation is a two-way street.
God offers us salvation....
and we must accept HIS terms without rewriting them to suit ourselves.

So if you believe we are to do good works...
why not just state it simply without getting into word games?
It SOUNDS like you don't think doing good works is really necessary.

Synergism in theology regards the cooperation between man and God.
Jesus said that if we want to follow Him we must pick up our cross daily.
Luke 9:
23 And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily * and follow Me.
What do you think that cross is?
Or maybe there is no cross for us since Jesus did it all?

In Revelation 3:20 Jesus is standing at the door and knocking.
WE have to open the door.

Philippians 2:12-15
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
God is at work in us so that we can prove ourselves to be blameless and children of God....appearing as lights in the world.
Does that sound like we need to do nothing?

If you believe we are to DO SOMETHING...then state it plainly and simply.

Good works, which are good and profitable to men (Titus 3:8) are required to glorify God (Matthew 5:16) and to meet urgent needs, that we may not be unfruitful. (Titus 3:14) Good works are not required to merit our salvation.

Interesting.
So being called a fool by Jesus means nothing to you.
We could just become saved at some point...do nothing to advance the Kingdom....
not obey Jesus....but we will still merit our salvation.

Thanks for confirming what I stated...
you really do NOT believe good works are necessary.

Faith only.
Faith ONLY is not biblical and all the verses regarding doing good works (of which I've posted many) will support this.

Titus 2:14
14Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
Romans 2:6
He will render to each one according to his works:

We could never do enough good works to earn our salvation, (Romans 4:4-6) so good luck with that! God's standard is absolute perfection, and we all blew it. (Romans 3:23) We need a Savior. (Romans 6:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17)

What a disasterous excuse for doing good!
We can't be perfect so we should just give up?
Again you prove your position.
You say we need a savior.
Doesn't every Christian believe this?
Are we debating THIS?
Or the need to do good works?

So, IOW,,,Jesus is going to do it all for you --- just as I've been stating.

Your loaded question needed to be qualified. You debate like a cunning lawyer.

And you debate like those witnesses who will not give a straight answer.

Here's the simple question again:

ARE BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS?

Expected yes and believers are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) Good works are not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. (1 John 3:7-10)

Well, you finally understand.
Good works are FORCED onto the saved.

Let's listen to Jesus again:
Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Jesus said the above...not me.
Only those who do the will of the Father will be admitted to live with the Father.
I suggest we start finding out what the will of the Father is and adhere to it and stop teaching that
good works are not necessary -or to put it your way- meritorious for heaven when JESUS Himself
stated that they are.

Like I don't know that? Just because Jesus Christ is the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation does not mean that I'm supposed to remain idol and not grow in grace and in the knowledge of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 3:18) We still have free will and make choices.

Does you free will tell you not to do good works?

False. That is "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door. Those who promote salvation by works will typically confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Sure Dan.
We're saved by faith.
What a merry-go-round you're on.
The end of our faith is salvation.
What comes inbetween?
Anything?

What is faith anyway?
What does it mean to BELIEVE in Christ?
To BELIEVE means to follow.
To follow means to obey.

Jesus said we're to do good works.
If we want to obey, we need to do good works.

Don't confuse commands for us in order to become saved with commands for us after we have been saved. There is a difference between obeying God's will in order to become saved (John 6:40) and obeying God's will after we have been saved. (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18)

I see. So after we're saved we don't need to obey God's commands?
John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
So many verses on obedience....
But we like to make up our own rules instead of following those that Jesus left us with.

The NT teaches salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone apart from works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Hence, FAITH ALONE. *Not to be confused with "faith only" per James 2:24 - empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) that remains alone - "barren of works." That is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith.

Salvation alone through Jesus is the same as Faith Alone.
Anyway, we're NOT DISCUSSING getting saved.
We're discussing AFTER we get saved.

After justificaton comes sanctification.
It's the sanctification part we're discussing here.

In regard to John 3:36, I often hear works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics) quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved "by" obedience/works. In regard to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which "follow" believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son.

No Dan. Your incorrect understanding of scripture is becoming apparent.
John 3:36, which I've posted several times because it's VERY important states that
IF WE DO NOT OBEY, God's WRATH will be upon us.
You're adding your own understanding to scripture.

Let's look at it again:
John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
1. He who believes in the Son has eternal life.
See, the person is ALREADY SAVED.
If he believes in the Son he will have eternal life.

2. BUT he who does not OBEY the son will not see life.
Because it means he doesn't really BELIEVE in the Son because those that believe will also FOLLOW and obey.

Obedience is absolutely necessary for salvation.
If a person becomes born again...
but then does not OBEY GOD...
the fellowship will come to an end.
The person will be denying God.
2 Timothy 2:12
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
If we don't obey God...we are denying Him by ignoring HIS rules.

If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

Really Dan...you do add to scripture to make it say what you want it to say.
I explained this above.
Like I said...unbelievers do not need to obey the Son.
They're already lost.
John 3:36 is to believers.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." To refuse to believe in the Son is to disobey, rebel, be disloyal and refuse conformity. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." *In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

Correct!
To not believe means to disobey.
As I've said BELIEVE means to follow..
to follow means to obey.

As I stated above...
if we do not obey the Son, we are denying God.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

What does this have to do with anything?
Want to discuss the OT?
Were they all lost because Jesus was not glorified yet??

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

This is comparing the Holy Spirit of the OT with the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit in the NT.
Want to get into this?
What's the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant?
I'd suggest sticking to the topic at hand since the answers will NOT support your ideas.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity.

So those in the OT did nothing of any value?

Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches (like Judas Iscariot) are cut off.

I don't know what you mean by self-attached.
John 15 states that if we do NOT BEAR FRUIT we will be CUT OFF AND BURNED.

I'd try to read the bible simply and not add my own thoughts to it.

John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

Every branch THAT DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT....
God TAKES AWAY.

Simple.

 

[GodsGrace]

IF is a confirmation Those who abide confirm they have a spiritual and vital connection with the vine. Those who do not abide confirm they have a mere cosmic connection (self-attached) to the vine.

IF is not a confirmation. We've been through this before.
I'm not going to give an English lesson here.

Just this:
I say "IF I make dinner tonight, it'll be steak".

Are you eating steak that evening??

In regard to "faith without works is useless or dead," James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead.

Right.
Faith without works is dead.
There is no evidence of life. It is dead.

If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

So you agree?
If a person is saved they will surely do good works...
as Jesus commanded.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

The source of life IN FAITH
becomes WORKS just as
Ephesians 2:8-9 states:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

It plainly states that we are created for good works.
If we are created for good works... it means that God EXPECTS us to do good works...
for which He has created us.

Of course, He does and that is what we are saved FOR but NOT BY. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Big difference!

AGAIN DAN.....
WORKS DO NOT SAVE US.

Again, good works are what we are saved FOR but NOT BY. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Let that sink in.

OK.
So if we're created for good works....
ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS?

A simple reply would end this conversation...
Problem is: You're trying to avoid stating what you really believe.
(that works are not necessary, but only faith is necessary)

I was not implying there is middle ground but there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers. That was my point.

Well, make believers are not Christian are they?
Only 2 categories Dan.
One is a believer or he is not.

Amen! (Ephesians 2:10)

There are genuine believers and there are make believers. That's only two categories and it's not hard to find genuine believers and make believers mixed together in various churches and on various Christian forum sites.

I have read John 15 numerous times. Once again, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples) and branches that are cut off are make believers (like Judas Iscariot) who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

BUT IT DOES NOT STATE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING!!

Why not just accept what it's stating?
Because it goes against what YOU believe to be true.
This is eisegesis Dan...and you should know better.

John 15 does not speak of believers or unbelievers.
It plainly states that branches that do not bear fruit WILL BE CUT OFF AND BURNED.
They are USELESS to the Kingdom of God which Jesus came to establish on earth.

Again...you are adding to scripture.
John warned us not to do this in Revelation.

John 15:5 - “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. Descriptive of believers. We know that only good trees bear good fruit. (Matthew 7:17) We also know - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit (1 John 4:13) and - Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. (1 John 4:15) Again, descriptive of believers.

Abiding means to live with, to accept.
If you want to abide with a wife, for instance, you're going to have to use synergism and do at least some of what she wants.
God is God....He's not a wife.
We must do everything He wants if we want to ABIDE in Him.

Let's post the entire passage:
John 15:1-6
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot * bear fruit of itself unless * it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless * you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing *.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
Take note:
Verse 1 God is the vinedresser.
Verse 2 The branch IS IN JESUS ALREADY. The person is already born again.
Every branch that does not bear fruit (who is already in Jesus) God will TAKE AWAY.
God will take away a branch that is already in Jesus, saved, because it does not bear fruit.

Now let's find out what abide means:
abide
/əˈbʌɪd/
https://www.google.com/search?sca_e...2ahUKEwjYx7WKtcOLAxWB7LsIHdMWM-UQ3eEDegQIOxAL
verb

1. 1.
   accept or act in accordance with (a rule, decision, or recommendation).
   "I said I would abide by their decision"
   
   
   

John 15:6 - If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. A picture of condemnation. (John 3:18) Descriptive of make believers (who are unbelievers) like Judas Iscariot. (John 6:64-71) In John 8:31, Jesus said - “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

Explained above. Cannot be more clear.
The branches are BELIEVERS,,,IN CHRIST.
Please read it again.

And what are we to CONTINUE in?
Maybe commandments Jesus left us with?
It says continue in My word...
This means what Jesus TEACHES.
We are to continue in what Jesus teaches.

UNBLELIEVERS do not need to continue in what Jesus teaches because they don't
believe what Jesus teaches.

32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” To continue in His word is to abide in His word. (1 John 2:14) Those who do not abide in His word demonstrate they are not truly His disciples.

Anyone could decide not to abide anymore.
At that point the branch is cut off.
Abide means to ACCEPT.
If we don't accept God's word we will be cut off.
God's word includes doing good works.

John 6:64) *Hermeneutics. So, there are only two camps. Genuine believers who abide (like the remaining 11 disciples) and make believers who do not abide (like Judas Iscariot). Based on your eisegesis you are trying to create a third camp of Christians who do not abide because you teach salvation by works.

Genuine believers produce good fruit. (Matthew 7:17; 13:23) Non-genuine believers do not produce good fruit. (Matthew 7:17(b); James 2:14). You need to learn how to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. Your eisegesis is not working.

Why don't you actually post the verses?
You're conflating all kinds of different ideas and not sticking to what the NT and Jesus taught.
He taught that we are TO OBEY HIM or we'd be like the foolish man whose house was washed away.

You did not have to mention it. It was obviously implied. If these were genuine believers who failed to abide and were thrown into the fire that would be a loss of salvation according to your eisegesis. Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic several years ago, I lived in fear and bondage to IN-security as a make believer/unbeliever. But after my conversion, I no longer live in fear and bondage to IN-security. (Psalm 37:28; John 10:27-28; Romans 8:30; Ephesians 1:13-14; 1 John 5:13) Praise God!

Well, this kind of explains why you're afraid of good works.
And the CC doesn't even teach that you need good works to be saved.
Musta been some misunderstanding.

Your conversion does not mean you can change the meaning of very plain verses.

Based on your eisegesis that culminates in salvation by works, which leaves one insecure. Did I do enough? Do I measure up? What is the standard? Even our best is not good enough. (Romans 3:23; 6:23) But His best is good enough. (Romans 4:5-6; 5:9; 5:19; 2 Corinthians 5:17)

This is nonsense...what some would call a strawman.
Going beyond what is stated to prove your point.
NOWHERE in scripture does it state WHAT we are to do or HOW MUCH of it we are to do.
These are YOUR fabrications and go to your fear of feeling unsaved.

I do adhere to what Jesus and the other Apostles said. As for listening to other Christians. Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. Yet you refuse to be sharpened and are very satisfied with your eisegesis.

Ditto Dan.

Necessary for what? To obtain and/or maintain salvation? NO. We are not saved by works. Period. Good works are necessary to glorify our Father in heaven (Matthew 5:16) and necessary to be good and profitable to men

NO. Again...good works are necessary because we are COMMANDED to do them.
They give glory to God...would you like to explain HOW?

But...yes, we are COMMANDED to do good works...
no matter how afraid of this word you are.

(Titus 3:8) and necessary to meet urgent needs, that we may not be unfruitful. (Titus 3:14) Good works are not required to merit salvation.

Good works are not required to merit salvation or to keep salvation.
Interesting..because I've posted many verses that state that they are.
If we DO NOT OBEY GOD...
how could we have fellowship with Him?

Just ask these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 who thought their works would save them, but they were sadly mistaken. Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved.

NO. Again you're reading into scripture.
I'll post the entire passage:

Matthew 7:19-23
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Where does the above mention anything about being saved?
It simply says that every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down.
A good tree will bear good fruit...but it must bear that good fruit.

Not everyone who cries LORD LORD will enter.
BUT HE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER.

No mention of salvation. Only of bearing fruit and doing the will of the Father.
Why?
Because UNBELIEVERS are not required to do the will of the Father...they're already lost.
Unbelievers are not required to bear good fruit...they're already lost.

It's we who claim to be saved that must bear good fruit
and do the will of the Father.

Those who practice lawlessness will not enter.
Those who are not abiding....obeying...are the lawless.

 

[civic]

Still no answer.

Are we required to do good works or not?
AFTER salvation.

Must I post 10's of verses AGAIN?

This is not over-thinking....
it's properly understanding scripture.

Jesus said if we do not bear fruit we will be cut away:

John 15:1-2
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.


I think that we should adhere to what Jesus taught.

Yes good works and fruit are not only required but evidence one is saved and a follower of Christ. You will know them by their fruits. We are Gods workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works. Faith without works is dead.

In this context fruit and good works are synonyms.

The Abundant life one that is a fruitful life. We can learn many truths from Gods creation and the way He designed things to work.

God created plants to fruit and propagate themselves. Jesus cursed the fig tree. Why? It was green but did not bear fruit so He cursed the tree. A good tree brings forth good fruit. You will know them by their fruits. God is life and created man and plants to bring forth life. I came that you might have life and life abundantly. A fruitful life is Gods design for us. The Fruit of the Spirit in us is our evidence we have life (the Spiritual life, born of the Spirit) which God created us for His good works that He prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. We are Gods workmanship created for that purpose.

The parable of the sower in which the good soil produces much fruit. God did not create man, animals and plants to look good but to multiply, bear fruit, procreate. They(we) are agents of life to bring forth fruit, life. We are created in Gods image to bring forth life, to be fruitful and multiply.

It’s the nature of God to send, distribute, equip, empower and to set free. Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit to accomplish this in our life. Jesus had to leave to give us the Holy Spirit. Jesus greatest thing He did as a leader of men was to leave. He removed Himself to give us His Spirit. And the result was to Be fruitful!

Sin brought forth death, unfruitfulness, thorns, thistles, labor etc….

Gods truth like water is designed to bring forth life/fruit. Truth is not an end to itself but the foundation for life. Fruit brings glory to God. Salvation is not the end game either but fruit in your life, good works. Faith without works/fruit is dead. James 2:17

Philippians 1:9-11
And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; 11 having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

Titus 3:14
And our people must also learn to devote themselves to good works in order to meet the pressing needs of others, so that they will not be unfruitful.

James 3:18
Peacemakers who sow in peace reap the fruit of righteousness.

John 15:8
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Psalm 1:2-3
But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
3 He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water,
Which yields its fruit in its season
And its leaf does not wither;
And in whatever he does, he prospers.

Ezekiel 47:12
Along both banks of the river, fruit trees of all kinds will grow. Their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. Each month they will bear fruit, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will be used for food and their leaves for healing.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Truth is from God and lies are from satan. This is the cosmic battle but the ultimate reality of the battle is that one leads to Life and the other leads to death.

The Parable of the Talents Matthew 25

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’



hope this helps !!!

 

[GodsGrace]

Not so fast.

Why doesn't this tree bear good fruit? Because it is a bad tree. (Matthew 7:17) Not bearing fruit is 'descriptive' of a bad tree. Unbelief is the root of the problem here which is prescriptive. (John 3:18)

A good tree will bear good fruit.
A bad tree will bear bad fruit.

Any tree that DOES NOT BEAR GOOD FRUIT will be cut down.

So if we don't bear good fruit, we're a bad tree.
And will be cut down.

Roman Catholics would agree with you because they also teach salvation by works

Let's get this perfectly straight Dan .
Could you PLEASE stop saying this?
Catholics believe in justification BY FAITH ALONE...
just as Ephesians 2:8 states.

This is from the Council of Trent.....1547

CHAPTER VIII:
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD​

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

and if one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it is imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved as described by the conduct of their lives and it's the same with the lost. These good works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

Why do I have to look up Romans 2:6-10?
You should post it, like I post my verses.

Romans 2:1-13
1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone * of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly * falls upon those who practice such things.
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
Actually, I've posted this many times.
God will render to each man according to his deeds...
which is exactly what Jesus taught.
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
It is not the hearers but the doers who will be justified.
Here Paul is using the word justified as James uses it in his letter.

I do agree that some of the above is referring to unbelievers...
but not all of what you post is referring to unbelievers but are warnings to believers.
I've posted this in previous replies to you.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

Right.
Again...........
well doing does not save us.
WE ALL AGREE THAT WORKS DO NOT SAVE...BUT ONLY FAITH SAVES!

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we obtain salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation.

The TYPE of deeds?
You mean a person could be doing the WRONG TYPE of good deeds?
Also, if you don't post the passage, I cannot follow along.
Maybe YOU have each word in your head,,,but I'd like to see the passage under discussion in front of me.

*If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved by grace through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). Are you beginning to understand yet?

No. I understood a long time ago....but some do not want to admit that good works are a necessary component of salvation.

Once you come to understand that we are saved by grace through faith, not works,

and saved for good works but not by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10) then we will no longer be arguing. But I won't hold my breath. I don't believe that God fatalistically determines who will and won't believe in Jesus in order to receive eternal life. We must choose to believe in Jesus unto salvation, so as you can see, I am not a Calvinist. Receiving eternal life is conditioned on man choosing to believe in Jesus unto salvation, so it is prescriptive.

Never claimed you were a Calvinist.

I also never heard you say that good works are necessary.

WHY are you so afraid of good works?
Jesus said to do them.
He said that if we do NOT...we will be cut off.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes good works and fruit are not only required but evidence one is saved and a follower of Christ. You will know them by their fruits. We are Gods workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works. Faith without works is dead.

In this context fruit and good works are synonyms.

The Abundant life one that is a fruitful life. We can learn many truths from Gods creation and the way He designed things to work.

God created plants to fruit and propagate themselves. Jesus cursed the fig tree. Why? It was green but did not bear fruit so He cursed the tree. A good tree brings forth good fruit. You will know them by their fruits. God is life and created man and plants to bring forth life. I came that you might have life and life abundantly. A fruitful life is Gods design for us. The Fruit of the Spirit in us is our evidence we have life (the Spiritual life, born of the Spirit) which God created us for His good works that He prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. We are Gods workmanship created for that purpose.

Agreed.
We are created for good works.
There are too many on these forums that find the word WORKS to be an undesirable word when both Paul and Jesus spoke
about doing good in every letter of Paul's and in many parables of Jesus.

The parable of the sower in which the good soil produces much fruit. God did not create man, animals and plants to look good but to multiply, bear fruit, procreate. They(we) are agents of life to bring forth fruit, life. We are created in Gods image to bring forth life, to be fruitful and multiply.

It’s the nature of God to send, distribute, equip, empower and to set free. Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit to accomplish this in our life. Jesus had to leave to give us the Holy Spirit. Jesus greatest thing He did as a leader of men was to leave. He removed Himself to give us His Spirit. And the result was to Be fruitful!

Agreed.
On our own we can do nothing.
No Pelagians around here!
I do believe that if Jesus spoke so much about doing good...
it must surely mean that this is our goal in the Kingdom life.
There is so much push-back to the word WORKS that it's not even discussed
what exactly it means.
It's just denied straight out.

Sin brought forth death, unfruitfulness, thorns, thistles, labor etc….

Gods truth like water is designed to bring forth life/fruit. Truth is not an end to itself but the foundation for life. Fruit brings glory to God. Salvation is not the end game either but fruit in your life, good works. Faith without works/fruit is dead. James 2:17

Of course. Faith without works is a dead faith because we're not following the teachings of Jesus.
In Matthew 24 there's a list of what we should do: Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.
Jesus meant to begin a better life here on earth...to create a Kingdom.
If we want to be a part of that Kingdom...we should be contributing to it.
It seems so simple to me.

Philippians 1:9-11
And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; 11 having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

Titus 3:14
And our people must also learn to devote themselves to good works in order to meet the pressing needs of others, so that they will not be unfruitful.

Agreed. Another member believes this to mean that we work ONLY for man....to meet these pressing needs....
but the work we do, we do for God.
I could not have done many things in my life if I didn't have the help of the Holy Spirit and if I didn't feel
that I was doing it for God.

James 3:18
Peacemakers who sow in peace reap the fruit of righteousness.

John 15:8
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Psalm 1:2-3
But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
3 He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water,
Which yields its fruit in its season
And its leaf does not wither;
And in whatever he does, he prospers.

Ezekiel 47:12
Along both banks of the river, fruit trees of all kinds will grow. Their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. Each month they will bear fruit, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will be used for food and their leaves for healing.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Truth is from God and lies are from satan. This is the cosmic battle but the ultimate reality of the battle is that one leads to Life and the other leads to death.

The Parable of the Talents Matthew 25

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much.

This is such an important concept in Christianity.
If God cannot trust us with little things....
How will He trust us with big things?

Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’



hope this helps !!!

Yes. I believe it confirms what I believe the NT teaches about doing good.
I believe we are not to lose our salt or hide our light. Matthew 5
Jesus said that our good works should be seen. Matthew 5:16

I just really believe that Christians should not be afraid of the word WORKS.
We are NOT saved by our works.
But once saved...God does expect them from us.

 

[TedT]

How about: once elect, always saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

How about: once elect, always saved?

Ted...would this refer to the reformed/calvinist faith?
If so, no, John Calvin stated that one could become UNELECT.

 

[TedT]

Ted...would this refer to the reformed/calvinist faith?
If so, no, John Calvin stated that one could become UNELECT.

No ma'am....Calvin got it wrong imCo. It refers to my own version of faith in Christ and the intent of the promise within being chosen / elected.

 

[GodsGrace]

No ma'am....Calvin got it wrong imCo. It refers to my own version of faith in Christ and the intent of the promise within being chosen / elected.

I'm sorry Ted...I don't understand.
First, are you reformed?
Sounds like it,,,hate to assume.
What is the intent of the promise?

 

[Hosanna]

Ted...would this refer to the reformed/calvinist faith?
If so, no, John Calvin stated that one could become UNELECT.

First time I've heard that about Calvin. With Perseverance being part of TULIP becoming un-elect seems unlikely. The doctrines summarized in the acrostic TULIP outline the condition of man, and God’s loving work and answer to man’s greatest problems.

The historic Westminster Confession of Faith reminds us of this doctrinal truth when it says, “They, whom God has accepted in his Beloved [Jesus Christ, His only Son], effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally, fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved”

What Is the Perseverance of the Saints?

The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, sometimes referred to as “eternal security,” speaks to questions such as “Can I lose my salvation?” or “How do I

learn.ligonier.org

 

[GodsGrace]

First time I've heard that about Calvin. With Perseverance being part of TULIP becoming un-elect seems unlikely. The doctrines summarized in the acrostic TULIP outline the condition of man, and God’s loving work and answer to man’s greatest problems.

The historic Westminster Confession of Faith reminds us of this doctrinal truth when it says, “They, whom God has accepted in his Beloved [Jesus Christ, His only Son], effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally, fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved”

What Is the Perseverance of the Saints?

The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, sometimes referred to as “eternal security,” speaks to questions such as “Can I lose my salvation?” or “How do I

learn.ligonier.org

Here is what John Calvin wrote:


there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by whichGod, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor ofdeath, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

Book 3
Chapter 4
Paragraph 8

Because of the above...a reformed believer can never be sure of his salvation.

 

[Hosanna]

Here is what John Calvin wrote:


there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by whichGod, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor ofdeath, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

Book 3
Chapter 4
Paragraph 8

Because of the above...a reformed believer can never be sure of his salvation.

I found this that shows your right. Thanks

CALVIN’S PERSEVERANCE IS NOT ETERNAL SECURITY​

Many Christians wrongly assume that the Calvinist theory of “the perseverance of the saints” [the “P” in T.U.L.I.P.] is synonymous with the doctrine of eternal security. The biblical doctrine of eternal security teaches that one who has been truly saved by God’s grace is kept eternally saved by God’s grace. God has not left our eternal destiny in our ability to persevere. For God to do that would result in a salvation by works.

Citing Augustine, John Calvin wrote, “[T]hose who do not persevere unto the end belong not to the calling of God.”2

Calvin also stated:

[W]hat they [the Christians at Corinth] had attained so far is nothing, unless they keep steadily on; because it is not enough that they once started off on the way of the Lord, if they do not make an effort to reach the goal.3

NO ASSURANCE OF SALVATION​

Even John Calvin himself did not possess assurance of salvation. Writing in his will shortly before his death in 1564, he declared:

I testify also and profess that I humbly seek from God, that He may so will me to be washed and purified by the great Redeemer’s blood, shed for the sins of the human race, that it may be permitted me to stand before His tribunal under the covert of the Redeemer Himself.9 (italics in original; underline added)

John 3:36 says:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Calvin taught that he could not believe unless God first regenerated him and gave him faith to believe. It is not surprising, therefore, that Calvin or any Calvinist cannot have an assurance of salvation and, therefore, he must adhere to his perseverance of the saints theory.

No Calvinist can be sure of his salvation because he might be predestined just to think he is saved. After all, playing little head games with people would not be wrong for Calvin’s “God” since Calvin’s “God” is glorified by sending billions of people who had no choice to Hell for eternity.

Does Calvinism's "Perseverance" Really Offer Eternal Security? The Answer: No!

By Bob KirklandFrom the book Calvinism: None Dare Call It Heresy (Lighthouse Trails, 2018) The word perseverance is found only once in the Scriptures. Ephesians 6:18 commands the believer to be, “Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the...

www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com

 

[GodsGrace]

I found this that shows your right. Thanks

CALVIN’S PERSEVERANCE IS NOT ETERNAL SECURITY​

Many Christians wrongly assume that the Calvinist theory of “the perseverance of the saints” [the “P” in T.U.L.I.P.] is synonymous with the doctrine of eternal security. The biblical doctrine of eternal security teaches that one who has been truly saved by God’s grace is kept eternally saved by God’s grace. God has not left our eternal destiny in our ability to persevere. For God to do that would result in a salvation by works.

Citing Augustine, John Calvin wrote, “[T]hose who do not persevere unto the end belong not to the calling of God.”2

Calvin also stated:

NO ASSURANCE OF SALVATION​

Even John Calvin himself did not possess assurance of salvation. Writing in his will shortly before his death in 1564, he declared:


John 3:36 says:


Calvin taught that he could not believe unless God first regenerated him and gave him faith to believe. It is not surprising, therefore, that Calvin or any Calvinist cannot have an assurance of salvation and, therefore, he must adhere to his perseverance of the saints theory.

No Calvinist can be sure of his salvation because he might be predestined just to think he is saved. After all, playing little head games with people would not be wrong for Calvin’s “God” since Calvin’s “God” is glorified by sending billions of people who had no choice to Hell for eternity.

Does Calvinism's "Perseverance" Really Offer Eternal Security? The Answer: No!

By Bob KirklandFrom the book Calvinism: None Dare Call It Heresy (Lighthouse Trails, 2018) The word perseverance is found only once in the Scriptures. Ephesians 6:18 commands the believer to be, “Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the...

www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com

Good detective work!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yes. I believe it confirms what I believe the NT teaches about doing good.
I believe we are not to lose our salt or hide our light. Matthew 5
Jesus said that our good works should be seen. Matthew 5:16

I agree, and let me add to the list of verses Matthew 16:27 "or the Son of Man shall come with His angels in the glory of His Father, and then He will repay every man according to his works."

I just really believe that Christians should not be afraid of the word WORKS.
We are NOT saved by our works.
But once saved...God does expect them from us.

Definitively.
Sometimes I think in the story of Peter walking over the water towards Christ as an analogy of faith and works.

Upon Jesus call, Peter did not answer "I believe you can make me walk on water" and stayed comfortably on the boat. He actually walked towards Jesus over the water. Jesus had said "Come" and not "Stay there on the boat. Don't move. I'm coming for you"

True faith implies walking, knowing that you will feel sometimes you're sinking, but Christ will be there to rescue you.
You were created for good works... you were created to walk... even over water. The Kingdom of God is a Kingdom of walkers... walkers who sometimes stumble and start to sink, but know who to ask for help to keep walking.

 

[TedT]

I'm sorry Ted...I don't understand.
First, are you reformed?
Sounds like it,,,hate to assume.
What is the intent of the promise?

You will never define my theology by any of the current designations,

I do not define election as HIS CHOICE of us and not others for no reason.

My understanding of Pre-Conception Existence theology suggests that:
1. Everyone created in HIS image (ie, able to be a proper Bride for HIM) were all created at the same time before the creation of the physical universe which we all saw as proof of HIS divinity and eternal power, (Job 38:7 Rom 1:18-20)

2. At the proper time of our maturing process and while were were still innocent of any sin, HE proclaimed without proof (Col 1:23) the gospel of salvation to everyone including the truths of HIS deity, the consequences of sin including the unforgivable sin, and the rewards for any who put our fairth in HIM as our our LORD and Saviour from sin.

HE promised that anyone who put their faith without proof in HIM would be saved from any sin they might choose to indulge in in the future. Anywho rejected HIM as Lord and saviour would be doomed by the sacrosanct nature of their free will to be eternally estranged form HIM, unfit to ever fulfill HIS desire for Bride and fit only for banishment to the outer darkness.

That is how the elect became the elect - they were the ones who reacted positively to HIS proclamation and who were then chosen to be HIS elect to salvation if they shoiuld ever need it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

No Calvinist can be sure of his salvation because he might be predestined just to think he is saved. After all, playing little head games with people would not be wrong for Calvin’s “God” since Calvin’s “God” is glorified by sending billions of people who had no choice to Hell for eternity.

I would agree with you in theory... but such suppositions do not seem to be backed up by reality.
I mean, I don't find Presbyterians or Reformed to be significantly more neurotic than, say, Baptists or Catholics.
I'm, saying this because if Calvinists were really unsure of their salvation, and considering they believe in an eternal torment, they would live in extreme anxiety. The rate of depression, divorce, unemployment or suicide would be much higher.
I don't know if we have any hard data that backs this up.

If Calvinists are not more neurotic or anxious than Arminians, it is perhaps because they don't really believe, in their heart of hearts, the implications of their theology. Perhaps they have learn it in order to do some apologetics, but doesn't have a major impact on their daily affairs.
In my experience in Internet Forums, they tend to provide more serene answers. I have generally found more kindness towards me, as a non-Christian, within Calvinists... (certainly with exceptions in both sides) and my best friend ever in an Internet Forum is a Uruguayan Calvinist... a man of God, always serene.

It is just my appreciation and I can ne wrong.
What has been your personal experience?

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree, and let me add to the list of verses Matthew 16:27 "or the Son of Man shall come with His angels in the glory of His Father, and then He will repay every man according to his works."


Definitively.
Sometimes I think in the story of Peter walking over the water towards Christ as an analogy of faith and works.

Upon Jesus call, Peter did not answer "I believe you can make me walk on water" and stayed comfortably on the boat. He actually walked towards Jesus over the water. Jesus had said "Come" and not "Stay there on the boat. Don't move. I'm coming for you"

Very good point. Agreed wholeheartedly.
Regarding this walk of Peter on the water, let's also remember that while he kept his eyes on Jesus he walked with tranquility...
when he turned his attention to the water and took his eyes off of Jesus Peter began to sink into the water.

So we're to do as Jesus commands and keep our eyes on Him.

True faith implies walking, knowing that you will feel sometimes you're sinking, but Christ will be there to rescue you.
You were created for good works... you were created to walk... even over water. The Kingdom of God is a Kingdom of walkers... walkers who sometimes stumble and start to sink, but know who to ask for help to keep walking.

Agreed. Walking is an action. For instance when we're told to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh.
It's an action WE must individually take.

Good points.
Beautiful image.

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[GodsGrace]

You will never define my theology by any of the current designations,

You went off and started your very own denomination?!

I do not define election as HIS CHOICE of us and not others for no reason.

So far, agreed.
There is a reason why God chose us.

My understanding of Pre-Conception Existence theology suggests that:
1. Everyone created in HIS image (ie, able to be a proper Bride for HIM) were all created at the same time before the creation of the physical universe which we all saw as proof of HIS divinity and eternal power, (Job 38:7 Rom 1:18-20)

Wasn't EVERYONE created in His image?
As per Genesis 1:27? God said LET US CREATE MAN IN OUR IMAGE.

2. At the proper time of our maturing process and while were were still innocent of any sin, HE proclaimed without proof (Col 1:23) the gospel of salvation to everyone including the truths of HIS deity, the consequences of sin including the unforgivable sin, and the rewards for any who put our fairth in HIM as our our LORD and Saviour from sin.

Colossians 1:23 the gospel was proclaimed from the beginning by the same concept as
Romans 1:19-20 SINCE THE CREATON OF THE WORLD HIS ATTRIBUTES AND ETERNAL POWER AND DIVINE NATURE HAVE BEEN CLEARLY SEEN THROUGH WHAT HAS BEEN MADE.

Do you have a different understanding?

HE promised that anyone who put their faith without proof in HIM would be saved from any sin they might choose to indulge in in the future.

What does this mean?
That man is allowed to sin??

Anywho rejected HIM as Lord and saviour would be doomed by the sacrosanct nature of their free will to be eternally estranged form HIM, unfit to ever fulfill HIS desire for Bride and fit only for banishment to the outer darkness.

Agreed.

That is how the elect became the elect - they were the ones who reacted positively to HIS proclamation and who were then chosen to be HIS elect to salvation if they shoiuld ever need it.

What does IF THEY SHOULD EVER NEED IT mean?
Otherwise I agree.