Again, is that what I said? Speaking of strawman.
What is regeneration?
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
This is what I said:
You're forgetting the human side. When Jesus exhorted everyone to "Repent and Believe", were there any Calvinists that said "I'll wait for the Granting/Zapping"? No, of course not. So man does the repenting and God grants repentance.
civic
Well-known member
Amen
In that post you rendered judgment with no substantiation. You still have not offered any substantiation. This is getting to be boring.
civic
Well-known member
Notice Jesus never once hinted at the regeneration taught by calvinist. Jesus taught the opposite that THEIR FAITH has SAVED them. He didn't teach it was the faith He gave them either- it was their own faith.
Exactly! Faith is a gift from God that we appropriate in our lives which renders it our Faith. It is and always will be Christ's Faith but how we appropriate in our lives makes it our Faith.
civic
Well-known member
Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you has saved you, healed you.
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( not the faith I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith (not the faith I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."
Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( not the faith I have given you ) has made you well!"
Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith(not the faith I have give you ) has healed you."
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.
Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."
Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."
Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
FAITH PRECEDES REGENERATION
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life
hope this helps !!!
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( not the faith I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith (not the faith I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."
Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( not the faith I have given you ) has made you well!"
Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith(not the faith I have give you ) has healed you."
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.
Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."
Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."
Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
FAITH PRECEDES REGENERATION
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life
hope this helps !!!
I believe you also said we are placed in Christ when we believe.
No one is forgetting the human side. It's described in Romans 1-3
civic
Well-known member
Yes the Divine and human side is called SYNERGISM, not monergism.
It is your faith once it is gifted to.
Paul's question is "what do you have you did not recieve? Your answer would be my faith I presume?
Synergism involves merit. Your saved by grace, not cooperation.Yes the Divine and human side is called SYNERGISM, not monergism.
civic
Well-known member
What would your answer to Paul's rhetorical question be. "What do you have you have not recieved"?
My answer would be nothing. How about you?
civic
Well-known member
No thats the calvinists caricature which is false. The Greek word συνεργεῖν (synergein) means "to work together" or "to cooperate". The following passages in Scripture demonstrate that there is synergy or cooperation between God and man:
Mark 16:20- And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them ( συνεργοῦντος-synergountos )and confirming the word through the accompanying signs.
1 Corinthians 3:9- For we are co-workers (synergoi, συνεργοί ) in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.
1 Thessalonians 3:2
GRK: ἡμῶν καὶ συνεργὸν τοῦ θεοῦ
INT: of us and fellow worker of God
cf- James 2:22, 2 Cor 1:23;6:1;8:23; 1 Cor 16:16 , Rom 8:28, Rom 16:3,9, 21, Phil 2:25; 4:3;
sunergeó: to work together
Original Word: συνεργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sunergeó
Phonetic Spelling: (soon-erg-eh'-o)
Definition: to work together
Usage: I cooperate with, work together.
sunergos: a fellow worker
Original Word: συνεργός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: sunergos
Phonetic Spelling: (soon-er-gos')
Definition: a fellow worker
Usage: a fellow worker, associate, helper.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
To work together yet Paul says to those who work not.
civic
Well-known member
That’s the difference between good works and works of the law.
A distinction with a difference.
hope this helps !!!
Do explain
That is correct.
People repent and God grants repentance. Do you agree?
God grants repentance and people repentance. Those who it is not granted to do not repent
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