Could hypocrisy be another symptom of the Calvinist Living Dead state?
What is regeneration?
- Thread starter civic
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Alive
Member
No I think we're all guilty of that one Probably several times per day. It's more like an individual thing. The good news is first 1 Jn 1:8–10.
8 If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts].
9 If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].
10 If we say (claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word and make Him out to be false and a liar, and His Word is not in us [the divine message of the Gospel is not in our hearts].
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Rockson
Well-known member
No offence but to me the best way to describe Calvinistic beliefs is that it is a Scrambler Theology. (If you know what a Scrambler ride is at an amusement park) You don't know if you're coming or going....going one direction and suddenly pulls the absolute opposite way all the ;while trying to convince you that's normal and OK! You're always in a spin and nothing is straightforward. For a full effect watch the very brief video below.
Alive
Member
They make it sound so good. Especially some of the teachers Like RC and MacArthur and John Piper. Makes me think of the wizard of oz behind the curtain.
Video The great oz behind the curtain gets exposed>>>
Knowledge of truth, is not the absolute measuring stick use by the scriptures as a perquisite to being born again. What I mean by that statement is this: The Lord has children whose knowledge of the truth varies greatly among them.
So there two folks who admit that they have not even studied the subject of regeneration.
So, let me at least point out the book written by Robert E. Picirilli, using the quotes above, that what he is saying is exactly what we believe and have been saying! Now, I never read his book, I'm only going to use the quotes provided by Obadiah. Consider:
Strange quote to say the least~He's correct that regeneration implies a mystical union between Christ and the elect, which he said logically , not chronologically, precedes it and provides a basis for it. He is dead wrong in saying that it does not chronologically precedes regeneration. God has never viewed his elect outside of Christ eternally speaking as far as the doctrine of election of grace, never.
To illustrate please consider:
Jesus bypassed many to get to Zacchaeus forasmuch as he was an spiritual son of Abraham God's grace given to him from the foundation of the world, or from eternity.
But let us consider more of Robert E. Picirilli quotes.
This is exactly what we believe and teach. I'm thinking now that Obadiah is quoting Robert's book where he is laying out what Shedd and others believe not necessarily what he believe himself. I do not know, since I do not have the book. Surely this is not his beliefs, if so, then amen to all that he is saying. Again:
Amen!
Amen!
Beautifully said! Only I would add~the two do not happen simultaneously but often close in time!
Let's look at your statement~you said:
Exactly! The cause is regeneration, the effect, or evidence is faith!
Well, I agree, even though you show your confusion with your own post against Calvinism by stating exactly what we are saying! Thank you for doing so.
You need to go back to your drawing board and come up with another plan to refute those who teach that regeneration by the Spirit of God must precede faith and is the result of one having faith not the means thereof.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Regeneration is the second birth from above, which opens your eyes to the truth and gives you the capability of having faith.
Rockson
Well-known member
What a crazy order you have this in. So you have born again before truth and the capacity to have faith and what does the faith bring us to? Salvation. Eternal Life is imparted to us because of the truth we receive and we're made a new creatures in Christ with the life of God within. That new creature is a spiritual baby. Your doctrine has it they were born before they were conceived.
Using a natural analogy it'd be like a physical baby is born but he's not defined as a human being until years or months after his birth. Then something else happens to qualify him as the new creature in Christ. You better come back to the Bible. One becomes born again because of a positive response to the gospel which is the TRUTH.
Greetings Rockson~
Can you please tell me what a person must believe before that person is born of God?
Salvation as we have explained early on, is used in different senses~I'm only speaking of being saved from sin and condemnation.
Obadiah
Well-known member
Thanks for sharing that information with us, very encouraging.
civic
Well-known member
You are correct in saying regeneration is the 2nd birth, it’s being born again , born of the Spirit , the new birth. It’s being saved, becoming a child of God. It’s eternal life which happens after faith in Christ.
You are wrong about the rest since it occurs after one believes the gospel, not before hearing and believing.
I once believed the error of Calvinism like you for more than 40 years. And I use to teach that same error when debating non Calvinists.
hope this helps !!!
One more thought in reference to your analogy~A newborn infant knows nothing at birth~all the infant does for a few months is eat, sleep and pop all over themselves and need others to care for them, until he is able to see, know and understand and this comes over time.
It is called growing in grace and knowledge of who he is and what has been freely given to him by the grace of God.
Without question many need to do that very thing. It's called being a noble Christian in searching the scriptures to see if those things be so. Acts 17:11
One has the knowledge of being born of God by faith and his love of God, and God's children, etc. 1st John 5:1......
Not will be, but is born of God.....We do not believe in order to be born of God, if you believe then you are born of God!
civic
Well-known member
Notice the biblical order from Scripture when the new birth occurs
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
above one become born again after hearing the word of God
James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.
the same is said by James the new birth was through the hearing of the word of truth
John 1:12-13
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God
notice John says its by those who have received Him, believed in His name that they were born again, children of God, saved.
And Paul in Romans 10 gives the same order in 8-14. It comes after one hears and believes the gospel that they are saved, born of the Spirit.
John 3 the context, illustrations, text from the OT that he would be familiar with which Jesus points to for Nicodemus.
“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” ( notice belief precedes life )
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ( notice once again belief comes before life)17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Faith/Belief precedes life. John opens his gospel with belief preceding life ( John 1:12-13 and ends the gospel with the same John 20:31 ) Jesus teaches the same in John 3.
Conclusion: Ezekiel 18 declares : “a NEW SPIRIT I WILL (future) put WITHIN them…” These predictions mean that even Ezekiel was not regenerated, nor was any man prior to Ezekiel. And Ezekiel lived near the end of the OT time period. Scripture talks about 2 kinds of life. Physical and Spiritual. What other “kind of life” does the Bible talk about other than the life we are given in the flesh when we are born of the flesh, and eternal life which we are given when we are born of the Spirit? There is no other “kind of life” taught about in the Bible. When a man is born of the eternal Spirit, by the eternal Word of God, he is given eternal life. A man is regenerated when He is made alive with Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:5). Can a man be “made alive with Jesus Christ” apart from having Jesus Christ dwelling in him? Also, Paul explicitly states, “You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU. And if any man HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST HE IS NONE OF HIS.” (Rom. 8:9). We are born again THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD (1Peter 1:3). Can a man be born again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ before Jesus Christ actually rose again from the dead? No so Jesus in John 3 was not talking about spiritual life in the OT but the promise of the Spirit that would come at Pentecost when His spirit would be poured out upon all who believe in Him and become born again children of God from the preaching of the gospel and receiving Him as Lord.
hope this helps !!!
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
above one become born again after hearing the word of God
James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.
the same is said by James the new birth was through the hearing of the word of truth
John 1:12-13
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God
notice John says its by those who have received Him, believed in His name that they were born again, children of God, saved.
And Paul in Romans 10 gives the same order in 8-14. It comes after one hears and believes the gospel that they are saved, born of the Spirit.
John 3 the context, illustrations, text from the OT that he would be familiar with which Jesus points to for Nicodemus.
“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” ( notice belief precedes life )
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ( notice once again belief comes before life)17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Faith/Belief precedes life. John opens his gospel with belief preceding life ( John 1:12-13 and ends the gospel with the same John 20:31 ) Jesus teaches the same in John 3.
Conclusion: Ezekiel 18 declares : “a NEW SPIRIT I WILL (future) put WITHIN them…” These predictions mean that even Ezekiel was not regenerated, nor was any man prior to Ezekiel. And Ezekiel lived near the end of the OT time period. Scripture talks about 2 kinds of life. Physical and Spiritual. What other “kind of life” does the Bible talk about other than the life we are given in the flesh when we are born of the flesh, and eternal life which we are given when we are born of the Spirit? There is no other “kind of life” taught about in the Bible. When a man is born of the eternal Spirit, by the eternal Word of God, he is given eternal life. A man is regenerated when He is made alive with Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:5). Can a man be “made alive with Jesus Christ” apart from having Jesus Christ dwelling in him? Also, Paul explicitly states, “You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU. And if any man HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST HE IS NONE OF HIS.” (Rom. 8:9). We are born again THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD (1Peter 1:3). Can a man be born again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ before Jesus Christ actually rose again from the dead? No so Jesus in John 3 was not talking about spiritual life in the OT but the promise of the Spirit that would come at Pentecost when His spirit would be poured out upon all who believe in Him and become born again children of God from the preaching of the gospel and receiving Him as Lord.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
To recap for the readers/lurkers/guests the Biblical order of being born again and faith. Scripture is consistent and opposes the calvinists view on this topic.
Notice what comes first in scripture - the order of how one becomes saved.
1- Repent , turn away from sin, believe Gods word- the gospel of your salvation.
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ,regeneration, new life, born again etc....
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John below the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel, repenting
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life, regeneration, born again
hope this helps!!!
Notice what comes first in scripture - the order of how one becomes saved.
1- Repent , turn away from sin, believe Gods word- the gospel of your salvation.
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ,regeneration, new life, born again etc....
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John below the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel, repenting
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life, regeneration, born again
hope this helps!!!
Can I ask you some questions concerning your statement.
If what you are saying you truly believe, then what hope are there for those who have never heard, like so many in history, in the OT, when God only gave his word to Israel, not to any other nations? How could they have been saved if hearing the gospel and believing the same is the means thereof of being saved?
What hope are there for millions post Christ's death who have never so much as heard of Christ. I could give you a perfect example of what I'm asking.
I own a company for years and had a man working for me that came from a communist country, by escaping. He told me of a story once while in school where a student mention the name of Jesus Christ, where another student ran to him and said..What did you just say, tell me more of who this person is~ since they were not allow to see or read any materials of religion of any kind, yet some had underground meetings, but overall most of the populous were kept ignorant of Jesus Christ. This is still true, even though there are a few believers in these nations, but very, very few.
Are there any hope for millions of others if it is true that they must hear the gospel and believe before they can be saved from sin and condemnation?
How about infant dying before they have the ability to hear, and believe the gospel? There is not such doctrine as the age of accountability~since we all were accountable in Adam!
How about feeble minded folks of this world who have no ability to process information? Is there any hope for them in your gospel?
Let us get a little closer to the scriptures~Abraham, our spiritual father~how did he come to be a friend of God, when his fathers worshipped false gods? We have the answer in the word of God.
If God had not called him (regenerated him) then he too would have died in his sins worshipping other gods, just like his forefathers did. And so would have you and myself!
civic
Well-known member
Romans 1 answers your question in great detail.
Were people saved in the O.T. ?
hope this helps !!!
How? Explain please.
Absolutely~or, there would be no Hebrews eleven in our bibles.
Sorry, you provided no help, no pun intended, just stating a fact.
civic
Well-known member
Salvation has always been by faith as required by God in both testaments. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God/Christ. Faith precedes salvation. One must believe to be saved. Faith is a requirement by God to be saved. No faith no salvation. John 3:14-18 makes that clear. Belief gets you in ands unbelief keeps you out.
Jesus mentions belief and unbelief 5 times below in 5 verses. And this is consistent with Jesus teaching which I have pointed out many times. He always said it was YOUR FAITH that saved you, not the faith He gave them.
John 3:14-18
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
God will judge favorably those who heartfully or conscientiously follow his commandments, even though they were never formally introduced to them.
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
The Holy Spirit always has a presence across all times and throughout the world. John 16:8-10 explains one instance of that.
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
You conflated "calling" with "regeneration". They are two different words that have their own unique definitions. That doesn't mean that they are not related to each other but they are not synonymous. To conflate them is to make a total mess of things.
By the way, did you read how the Calvinist Regeneration before Belief doctrine makes one a Living (Regenerated) Dead (in Sins) monstrosity?
Complete
Well-known member
'But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,Hello @brightfame52,
I apologise.How did I miss that!? There are in fact two usages:-
Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to His mercy he saved us,
by the washing of regeneration,
and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which He shed on us abundantly
through Jesus Christ our Saviour;'
(Tit 3:5-6)
'And Jesus said unto them,
Verily I say unto you,
That ye which have followed me,
in the regeneration
when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory,
ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones,
judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'
(Mat.19:28)
Interesting verses!
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us,
by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.'
(Tit 3:4-7)
Here in this verse is a figure of speech, in which two things are mentioned but one thing meant, the second becoming an adjective, describing the first. The washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, are one operation performed by the Holy Spirit.
Praise God!
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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