What is regeneration?

[synergy]

Misrepresented him once again and put words in his mouth he never said

That's the only way Calvinists can continue to be Calvinists. By misrepresenting people in a way that they feel justified in dismissing them.

 

[synergy]

Sir Im finished with it.

you obviously believe, a dead lazaus heard Jesus voice naturally and responded. No Miracle at all performed by Jesus

You go to the head of the Calvinist Apologetics class of misrepresenting people in such a way that you feel justified to dismiss them.

 

[brightfame52]

Misrepresented him once again and put words in his mouth he never said

I didnt say he said it. What Jesus did with Lazarus and him hearing Jesus voice while he was dead, was a miracle Jesus performed, it wasnt something naturally he could do, he was dead.

Same with the dead hearing the voice of the Son of God here Jn 5:25

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

In fact I would argue that this verse is specifically referring to the spiritually dead Sheep, and He causes them to hear His voice and live Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John Gill writes on Jn 5:25

the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live; which may be understood either of a corporeal resurrection, and of some particular instances of it, which should shortly be; and of some persons who would be in the state of the dead, and to whom the voice of Christ would be attended with such power as to cause them to hear and live; as did Jairus's daughter upon his saying "Talitha Cumi", damsel arise, and the widow of Naim's son upon his saying, young man arise, and Lazarus, upon his calling to him, Lazarus come forth; and which is a full proof of his being equal to God that quickens the dead: or rather this is to be understood of a spiritual resurrection, and the rather, because this sense best agrees with the foregoing verse; and a corporeal resurrection is expressed in somewhat different words, and seems to be distinguished from this in John 5:28. And besides, the hour, or time of the resurrection of the above particular persons, was not strictly come; nor could they, with propriety, be said to be dead; to which may be added, that the phrase, "they that hear shall live", and none but them, best agrees with this sense: so then by the "dead" are meant such who are dead in trespasses and sins; who are separated from God, alienated from the life of God, and in whom the image of God is defaced; who are dead in all the powers and faculties of their souls, to that which is spiritually good; and are without spiritual breath, sense, feeling, and motion. And by "the voice" of Christ is intended his Gospel, which is a voice of love, grace, and mercy, of life and liberty, of peace, pardon, righteousness, and salvation by him; and which being attended with his power, is the means of quickening dead sinners; who may be said to hear it, when it comes not in word only, but in power, and works effectually in them; and is spirit and life, and the power of God unto salvation to them; when they receive it, understand, believe, and obey it: and such persons "shall live"; comfortably, pleasantly, and delightfully, a life of faith on Christ, a life of communion with him, and shall live eternally with him hereafter.

 

[brightfame52]

You go to the head of the Calvinist Apologetics class of misrepresenting people in such a way that you feel justified to dismiss them.

you obviously believe, a dead lazaus heard Jesus voice naturally and responded. No Miracle at all performed by Jesus
You obviously believe no special miracle will be performed by the Power of Jesus here as well Jn 5:28
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

I argue that in both Jn 5:25,28 are miracles if resurrection which causes them to hear. Nothing natural

 

[synergy]

I didnt say he said it.

What you are doing is misrepresenting me when you say the following:

Im letting it go, you obviously believe, a dead lazaus heard Jesus voice naturally and responded. No Miracle at all performed by Jesus

I don't obviously believe that at all. You are misrepresenting me.
What I do believe is that dead Lazarus hearing and coming out of the grave by God's power is definitely a miracle. Do you agree?
Christ naturally has the power to do that. Do you agree?
Own up to the fact that you already agreed that the dead can hear Jesus and that clearly destroys any semblance of your Regeneration before Belief doctrine.

 

[synergy]

you obviously believe, a dead lazaus heard Jesus voice naturally and responded. No Miracle at all performed by Jesus
You obviously believe no special miracle will be performed by the Power of Jesus here as well Jn 5:28
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

I argue that in both Jn 5:25,28 are miracles if resurrection which causes them to hear. Nothing natural

Is it possible for a Calvinist to actually read and respond to what I actually write? Stop going off on an imaginary tangent and read what I actually wrote and repeated several times over. Is that possible for a Calvinist?

What I do believe is that dead Lazarus hearing and coming out of the grave by God's power is definitely a miracle. Do you agree?
Christ naturally has the power to do that. Do you agree?
Own up to the fact that you already agreed that the dead can hear Jesus and that clearly destroys any semblance of your Regeneration before Belief doctrine.

You've proven that you deserve to go to the head of the Calvinist Apologetics class of misrepresenting people in such a way that you feel justified to dismiss them. Now it's time to break out of the Calvinist misrepresenting mind-lock you're in.

 

[civic]

What you are doing is misrepresenting me when you say the following:

I don't obviously believe that at all. You are misrepresenting me.
What I do believe is that dead Lazarus hearing and coming out of the grave by God's power is definitely a miracle. Do you agree?
Christ naturally has the power to do that. Do you agree?
Own up to the fact that you already agreed that the dead can hear Jesus and that clearly destroys any semblance of your Regeneration before Belief doctrine.

Catching and pointing out the contradictions are obvious to those who can be objective. They stand out like a sore thumb

 

[TomL]

Nothing here about spiritually dead people hearing to be made alive

There is if you can read with understanding

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John is writing to people that they might have life

Only a dead man needs life

by reading the dead man might believe and obtain life

 

[synergy]

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

In fact I would argue that this verse is specifically referring to the spiritually dead Sheep, and He causes them to hear His voice and live Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John Gill writes on Jn 5:25

More verses attesting to the fact that that the dead can miraculously hear Jesus based on God's power which clearly destroys any semblance of your Regeneration before Belief doctrine.

Keep those verses coming!

 

[TomL]

I didnt say he said it. What Jesus did with Lazarus and him hearing Jesus voice while he was dead, was a miracle Jesus performed, it wasnt something naturally he could do, he was dead.

Same with the dead hearing the voice of the Son of God here Jn 5:25

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

In fact I would argue that this verse is specifically referring to the spiritually dead Sheep, and He causes them to hear His voice and live Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John Gill writes on Jn 5:25

Nothing there states he causes them to hear his voice

yet another example of Calvinist eisegesis

In context it is belief which is refered to and one must believe before having life



John 5:25

And now is (και νυν ἐστιν [kai nun estin]). See 4:23 for this phrase. Not the future resurrection in verse 28, but the spiritual resurrection here and now. The dead (οἱ νεκροι [hoi nekroi]). The spiritually dead, dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1, 5; 5:14). Shall hear the voice of the Son of God (ἀκουσουσιν της φωνης του υἱου του θεου [akousousin tēs phōnēs tou huiou tou theou]). Note three genitives (φωνης [phōnēs] after ἀκουσουσιν [akousousin], υἱου [huiou] with φωνης [phōnēs], θεου [theou] with υἱου [huiou]). Note three articles (correlation of the article) and that Jesus here calls himself “the Son of God” as in 10:36; 11:4. Shall live (ζησουσιν [zēsousin]). Future active indicative, shall come to life spiritually.


A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 5:25.


the dead—the spiritually dead, as is clear from Jn 5:28. Here He rises from the calmer phrase “hearing his word” (Jn 5:24), to the grander expression, “hearing the voice of the Son of God,” to signify that as it finds men in a dead condition, so it carries with it a resurrection-power.

shall live—in the sense of Jn 5:24.


Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 136.

John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

4. ἀ. τινός listen to someone, follow someone (Hom.+) ἀκούετε αὐτοῦ Mt 17:5; Lk 9:35; Ac 3:22 (all three Dt 18:15); cf. Mt 18:15; Lk 16:29, 31; J 10:8; Ac 4:19. W. acc. J 8:47.—Abs. obey, listen αὐτοὶ καὶ ἀκούσονται Ac 28:28; cf. Mt 18:16; J 5:25b; agree 9:27a.

the hearing of faith must proceed being made alive

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Lazarus didn't have to hear anything. I don't know why you folks are going on about this.

43 When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.”

Jesus commanded Lazarus to rise from the dead, and he did. That's the power of God at work. God says, "let there be light" and bada-boom bada-bing, there's light.

 

[TomL]

Lazarus didn't have to hear anything. I don't know why you folks are going on about this.

43 When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.”

Jesus commanded Lazarus to rise from the dead, and he did. That's the power of God at work. God says, "let there be light" and bada-boom bada-bing, there's light.

The narrative concerning Lazarus is not employed to teach soteriology.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The narrative concerning Lazarus is not employed to teach soteriology.

But it can be, just not the way some are using it. It's not about whether the dead can hear. The dead can't hear. That's obvious.

It's about the power and command of Christ/God to make something happen.

It's right here in "Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes by] the word of Christ/God".

That's the lesson from Lazarus. When Christ/God says you can hear, you can hear. Just like "let there be light" produces light.

In today's colloquialisms, that verse could be translated as, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes when Christ/God says so."

 

[synergy]

Lazarus didn't have to hear anything. I don't know why you folks are going on about this.

43 When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.”

Jesus commanded Lazarus to rise from the dead, and he did. That's the power of God at work. God says, "let there be light" and bada-boom bada-bing, there's light.

Lazarus must have sensed something for him to "come forth".

Nevertheless, all the verses attesting to the fact that that the dead can hear Jesus based on God's miraculous power shows that Regeneration before belief is a fraudulent belief.

 

[synergy]

But it can be, just not the way some are using it. It's not about whether the dead can hear. The dead can't hear. That's obvious.

Through the power of God, the dead can hear. That's obvious from John 5:25-25.

John 5:24–25 (ESV) — 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

This verse destroys your Regeneration before Belief doctrine when even the the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Through the power of God, the dead can hear. That's obvious from John 5:25-25.

John 5:24–25 (ESV) — 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

This verse destroys your Regeneration before Belief doctrine when even the the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God.

I'm referring to talking to a dead person. That dead person can't hear. Jesus can make a dead person hear.

 

[synergy]

I'm referring to talking to a dead person. That dead person can't hear. Jesus can make a dead person hear.

There is no regeneration mentioned in any verse that says that God will make a dead man hear. That fact destroys the Regeneration before Belief doctrine of Calvinism.

 

[Obadiah]

The new birth and the gospel.


Born of Water John 3

John 3:1-7. Lets look at the context of Jesus interaction with Nicodemus. All human beings have experienced natural birth on earth, if they expect to go to heaven, they must experience a supernatural spiritual birth from above. Nicodemus was a well educated religious leader who did not understand what the Saviour was talking about. Jesus was speaking about a spiritual birth, but Nicodemus thought of a physical birth.

The situation is no different today When you talk with people about being born again, they often begin to discuss their family's religious heritage, their church membership, religious ceremonies like baptism etc....Jesus being a patient teacher picked up on Nicodemus' words and further explained the new birth. To be "born of water" is to be born physically ("enter a second time into his mother's womb") but to be born again means to be born of the Spirit. Just as there are two parents for physical birth, so there are two for spiritual birth: the Spirit of God (John 3:5) and the Word of God (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23-25). The Spirit of God takes the Word of God and, when the sinner believes, imparts the life of God.Jesus was not teaching that the new birth comes through water baptism. In the NT baptism is connected with death, not birth and no amount of physical water can cause a spiritual change in a person.

The emphasis in John 3:14-21 is on believing, because salvation comes through faith. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Understanding Jesus teaching in John 3 on Born Again !

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

So lets go through this point by point.

1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- God causes us to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in the new birth God is the Active One and the one who causes the birth but we must believe to be saved, regenerated.

There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.

Now The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 by reading through and observing the passage :

1- the 2 births
2- the wind and the spirit
3- flesh and the spirit
4- water and spirit
5- earthly and heavenly things
6- effects of both the wind and spirit
7- the seen with the unseen
8- the physical with the supernatural
9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding
10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom, believing and not believing

summary- just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again, regeneration )

Ezekiel 18 declares : “a NEW SPIRIT I WILL (future) put WITHIN them…” These predictions mean that even Ezekiel was not regenerated, nor was any man prior to Ezekiel. And Ezekiel lived near the end of the OT time period. Scripture talks about 2 kinds of life. Physical and Spiritual. What other “kind of life” does the Bible talk about other than the life we are given in the flesh when we are born of the flesh, and eternal life which we are given when we are born of the Spirit? There is no other “kind of life” taught about in the Bible. When a man is born of the eternal Spirit, by the eternal Word of God, he is given eternal life. A man is regenerated when He is made alive with Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:5). Can a man be “made alive with Jesus Christ” apart from having Jesus Christ dwelling in him? Also, Paul explicitly states, “You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU. And if any man HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST HE IS NONE OF HIS.” (Rom. 8:9). We are born again THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD (1Peter 1:3). Can a man be born again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ before Jesus Christ actually rose again from the dead? No so Jesus in John 3 was not talking about spiritual life in the OT but the promise of the Spirit that would come at Pentecost when His spirit would be poured out upon all who believe in Him and become born again children of God from the preaching of the gospel and receiving Him as Lord.

@Red Baker @praise_yeshua @Complete
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hope this helps !!!

I don't know a thing about regeneration but I found this:


The Nature of Regeneration
Some of its important attributes are as follows.
1. Regeneration implies a “mystical” union between Christ and the elect which logically—not chronologically—precedes it and provides a basis for it.
2. Regeneration is an immediate and internal work within man. “The influence of the Spirit is distinguishable from that of the truth; from that of man upon man; and from that of any instrument or means whatever. His energy acts directly upon the human soul itself.” This means that the Spirit of God operates without using even the Word of God. Regeneration does not require faith on the part of the individual; as Shedd observes, “A dead man cannot assist in his own resurrection.”
3. Regeneration is, in itself, entirely subconscious. The one regenerated has no awareness of the work and is altogether passive. Any awareness of regeneration that may develop in one’s experience is based on a perception of its effects.
4. Regeneration is logically the first work involved in applying salvation. All other aspects of the experience of redemption grow logically from this and require it as prerequisite.
5. Regeneration is not necessarily linked to conversion, although the two typically occur simultaneously. Where regeneration is unconscious, conversion is conscious and may coincide with regeneration or follow it after some separation in time. While regeneration does not require the Word, conversion does.


Robert E. Picirilli, Grace, Faith, Free Will: Contrasting Views of Salvation: Calvinism and Arminianism

Dr. Robert Picirilli is an author, retired college professor, and historian for the Free Will Baptist denomination. He knows what he's talking about.

 

[Obadiah]

You go to the head of the Calvinist Apologetics class of misrepresenting people in such a way that you feel justified to dismiss them.

That right there my friend is a perfect example of the love found in Calvinism.

 

[Alive]

I don't know a thing about regeneration but I found this:


The Nature of Regeneration
Some of its important attributes are as follows.
1. Regeneration implies a “mystical” union between Christ and the elect which logically—not chronologically—precedes it and provides a basis for it.
2. Regeneration is an immediate and internal work within man. “The influence of the Spirit is distinguishable from that of the truth; from that of man upon man; and from that of any instrument or means whatever. His energy acts directly upon the human soul itself.” This means that the Spirit of God operates without using even the Word of God. Regeneration does not require faith on the part of the individual; as Shedd observes, “A dead man cannot assist in his own resurrection.”
3. Regeneration is, in itself, entirely subconscious. The one regenerated has no awareness of the work and is altogether passive. Any awareness of regeneration that may develop in one’s experience is based on a perception of its effects.
4. Regeneration is logically the first work involved in applying salvation. All other aspects of the experience of redemption grow logically from this and require it as prerequisite.
5. Regeneration is not necessarily linked to conversion, although the two typically occur simultaneously. Where regeneration is unconscious, conversion is conscious and may coincide with regeneration or follow it after some separation in time. While regeneration does not require the Word, conversion does.


Robert E. Picirilli, Grace, Faith, Free Will: Contrasting Views of Salvation: Calvinism and Arminianism

Dr. Robert Picirilli is an author, retired college professor, and historian for the Free Will Baptist denomination. He knows what he's talking about.

Don't feel like The Lone Ranger. I've never studied regeneration either. I do have one of Picirilli's books"

FREE WILL REVISITED
A Respectful Response to Luther, Calvin, and Edwards
Copyright © 2017 Robert E. Picirilli.