Brother I already started one, maybe you can moved it.
What is regeneration?
- Thread starter civic
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Where do you see Gentiles being elected unto salvation, based on their paganism, anywhere in the Bible? Your presuppositions are blinding you to the truth.
Whether Gentiles as a nation or individual Gentiles you still have the massive problem of them being without Christ. How can anyone be in Christ with all the gifts and inheritance that comes with being in Christ and still be without Christ???? That totally warps the mind. Only in Calvinism do people warp their minds into thinking that they can be without Christ and still be in Christ.
The Israel nations did have elects such as their OT Saints. Where are the Gentile elects? Was Alexander the Great a Gentile elect unto salvation?
No Tom. You are ignoring all the Scriptures which God gave you to show, "BY HIS OWN LAW" how He treated "Everyone" who have turned to Him since long before the Pharisees corrupted His Priesthood. I posted for you to see but seeing you will not see the Law where God Commanded Israel how to treat Gentiles who had turned to Him. I posted them, but you refuse to even acknowledge them. Why would you do such a thing? You are ignoring who Paul said called Gentiles who turned to Him, "without Christ, without Hope and without God in this world". You have adopted the Pharisees religion that God judged men according to the DNA they were born with, even though I showed you God's Own Words which expose this popular religious philosophy as a lie. That before the Christ became a man, God was a respecter of persons. And now you are preaching that Jesus had to come and correct His Unjust Father. To break down the Unjust Laws of God that doomed men as "without God" based on the color of their skin, or the DNA they were born with.
This is why Jesus warns so often about religious men who call Him Lord, Lord, who come in His Name, to "Take HEED of them", and why HE tells His People to "Come out of the many religions these "many" establish.
I asked you to show me one example in the entire bible, showing of "ANYONE" Jew or Non-Jew, that turned to God but was rejected by Him based on the DNA they were born with. But you can't Tom. The reason you can't, is because GOD never created the law of commandments contained in ordinances that Judged men by the color of their skin, or the DNA they were born with. He always Judges by man work. The Pharisees, who had turned God's Word into a religious business, who alone had the Oracles of God but didn't believe them, who Jesus Himself said "Taught for doctrines the commandments of men", who the Prophets told you over and over "Led men astray by preaching a vision of their own mind", the mainstream preachers of that time, "The Circumcision" created this burden and laid it on the necks of men. Not God as you have been deceived into believing.
When was there a Time before Faith? Of course you will not answer? Didn't Abel have FAITH? Noah too? Didn't Abraham have Faith, according to your religion? Didn't Rahab have faith? Was Abraham without Christ? Was Caleb without Christ? Was Rahab without Christ?
All people without Faith are without Christ. Christians who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but "Work iniquity" are without Christ, at least according to the Christ "of the Bible". The Israelites were given the Gospel of Christ, just as we were. But they didn't mix the hearing with Faith. God called them "Children in whom is no faith", and they fell in the wilderness.
Luke 13: 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, (Non-Jew) and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
In your adopted religion, is a man permitted to hear and believe in the Words of this Jesus?
According to Paul, who gave Israel Food and Drink?
1 Cor. 10: 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Was Rahab and her family without Christ, without hope and without God, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel??
Joshua 6: 25 And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father's household, and all that she had; and she dwelleth in Israel even unto this day; because she hid the messengers, which Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.
The sad thing is that with "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, as it was in the religious sect of the Pharisees, it doesn't matter what the Scriptures actually say. These men will not engage in honest discourse, will not answer or ask questions, will not humble themselves to God's word "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" as instructed by God. Like the Pharisees, they are here to convert others to, and preserve and defend their particular religious sect or business. It isn't God's Truth they seek, but to preserve and defend their most precious possession, their pride, their religion, their religious traditions.
He is right there for them, but they just don't believe in Him.
I agree that Christ was there for Abraham, Rehab, and ALL who turned to God. He was there from the beginning. "Let there be Light".
Jesus exposed the mainstream preachers of His Time, as children of the devil. Your preaching implies that God was the deceiver Jesus came to expose. That God was the principality and power that led men astray that Jesus Spoiled. That Jesus made a show of "GOD" openly, not the religious rulers of His Time. That Jesus triumphed over God on the cross, not the deceivers who taught for doctrines the commandments of men "And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."
This is a popular, but insidious lie and Judgment against the ONE True God that Jesus Himself said He wants me to know. And Paul tells you why men would harbor such wicked and evil falsehoods in their heart about God, in His Mercy, so that they might consider, and pull this beam from their own eye first. But men really don't believe God's Word is for them, but always for "that other guy over there".
Rom. 1: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
It's not to late. Men can repent and turn from this world's religions who come in Christ's Name, but preach lies about God, and turn to this God from the heart and be learned of the Father. There will be a cost, and this man will be broken. But what remains will be a New Man, which after God is created in Righteousness and True holiness.
John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man (Jew or Gentile) therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
It is this God, and the Christ "of the Bible" that HE sent, that I am advocating we "Yield ourselves" servant to obey.
At least you're honest in recognizing that there is no emphasis of regeneration. That's because it is nowhere to be found throughout Rom 10:8-17.
They believe by hearing. Read Rom 10:17.
(Rom 10:17) Then faith is of hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
Paul intended the truth, not a Calvinist re-interpretation.
Read Rom 10:8. The word of faith is near to those who hear the word of faith. No mention of regeneration.
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The Word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart"; that is, the Word of Faith which we proclaim;
More strawmen from you. Nobody claims that we do it all on our own. It's the power of the word of God that enables us to hear. Again, no regeneration yet.
I see your desperation now. You are now resorting to throwing verses that you think back up Calvinism against Rom 10:8-17, hoping they overwhelm what Rom 10:8-17 actually does say.
More strawmen. Did I say anything against faith?
Sorry to contradict you but yes there was a time before these men had faith
and before they had faith they were
Ephesians 2:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Newsflash you just confirm what I stated
I think you need to reread the context of my discussion as I was dealing with one who claimed that elect people were never without Christ
yet here we had gentiles who previously had no faith in Christ but now do. In the view of the one who I was speaking to they would have been elect from the foundation of the world and never without Christ
That verse refutes the view of that one
brightfame52
Well-known member
When the dead hear in that scripture, the hearing isnt natural
The very verse you quoted destroys your Regeneration before Belief doctrine when even the the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God.
John 5:24–25 (ESV) — 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
civic
Well-known member
except the passage doesn't say what you claim, you made that up to support your man made doctrine on dead being a corpse.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Is it natural for a dead person to hear ? Duh next time you go to a funeral or someone's grave to put flowers, talk to them and see if they hear you. When Jesus speaks to the dead and they hear, its His performance of a miracle, duh
civic
Well-known member
they hear just fine as Jesus taught with the rich man and lazarus.
hope this helps !!!
So then you do agree that the dead can hear Jesus. That destroys any semblance of your Regeneration before Belief doctrine.
More nonsense
Deal with the verse
john holds that by reading what he writes one might believe
and in believing he might have life
Two things are obvious here
1 He held reading what he wrote is sufficient to bring about faith
2 one must believe before having life
you cannot deal with that verse by appealing to your theology or by assuming him incapable of belief
Scripture does not support your view. God does not regenerate man apart from a relationship with Christ
I posted multiple verses showing that
John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
one must receive Christ to be given the right to be born again
John 1:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Sorry that passage shows man cannot experience the kingdom of God unless he is born again. It says nothing about believing the gospel and if you continue reading you will see Jesus answered the question of Nicodenmmis "how can these things be"
John 3:9–16 (KJV 1900) — 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Christ must be liftewd up and and one must believe on him
Already demonstrated how that claim is false
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief
Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven
Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”
unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Philippians 1:28,29~"And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"
Yes I do but it does not mean what you think
God had to have sent them the gospel without which they could not believe
Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Faith is granted by the presentation of the word
Philippians 1:29 (ESV) — 29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,
to grant means to permit allow enable
It does not mean to effectually cause or to infuse
Here is what transpired
Acts 16:9–12 (KJV 1900) — 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them. 11 Therefore loosing from Troas, we came with a straight course to Samothracia, and the next day to Neapolis; 12 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days.
Paul was sent a vision to go preach the gospel
That is how they were granted to have faith
.
brightfame52
Well-known member
I dont think you realize that a dead person hearing is supernatural
civic
Well-known member
no its not, they are aware of their torment, pain, suffering etc......
brightfame52
Well-known member
Is a dead person hearing natural or supernatural. For instance did the dead lazarus hear Christ by his natural ability or by Christs supernatural miracle working ability ?
brightfame52
Well-known member
I cant help you see that, im going to let that alone
Lazarus naturally has a soul just like you and me and Christ naturally has the power to speak directly to anyone's soul. Therefore, I agree with you in that the dead can hear Jesus. That destroys any semblance of your Regeneration before Belief doctrine.
civic
Well-known member
OOPS
brightfame52
Well-known member
Im going to let that go, since you seem to think physically dead people can hear without a miracle from God lol.
Spiritually dead people may hear and those that hear may live
John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
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