Everything that God does is a miracle to us. There are no non-miracles from God. You have a non-argument in your hands. Therefore, I agree with you in that the dead can hear Jesus. That destroys any semblance of your Regeneration before Belief doctrine.
What is regeneration?
- Thread starter civic
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Greetings synergy,
I never said they were elected based on their paganism~election of grace is based on God's sovereign will alone.
We have no record that he was, but we do see some Gentiles in the OT that were part of the election of grace. I could name a few, but these are sufficient~ever heard of these? Tamar and Rahab were from the Canaanite community, Ruth was a Moab, and Bathsheba was likely a Hittite. Mostly they are considered Gentiles. These are in the genealogy of Jesus Christ~Rahab in Hebrews 11.
We have some errands to do~later I want to finish answering you and Tom. It may even be tomorrow.
That is your opinion but not scripture
John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Those individuals were elected for the purposes of Christ's Advent and His Election towards the Cross. That is already encapsulated by Israel's election. Gentiles offered nothing towards Election except in instances when individual Gentiles assisted Israel's election.
Read in Eph 2:12 how Paul lambasted Gentiles in general - how they were without God:
(Eph 2:12) and that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Im letting it go,physically dead people can physically hear.. I suppose when men hear and come out if their graves, thats not a miracle performed by Christ. They going to hear and come out by their own freewill I suppose
Now you're resorting to falsehoods in order to appease your false presuppositions.
I never said that it's not a miracle by Christ when men hear and come out of their graves. What I did say is everything God does is a miracle to us.
I never said they hear and come out by their own freewill.
Quit the falsehoods and own up to the fact that you already agreed that the dead can hear Jesus and that clearly destroys any semblance of your Regeneration before Belief doctrine.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Im letting it go, you obviously believe, a dead lazaus heard Jesus voice naturally and responded. No Miracle at all performed by Jesus
I already told you multiple times that everything that God does is a miracle to us.
What part of the word "everything" do you not understand?
I see that you keep spewing out falsehoods in order to appease your false presuppositions.
Quit the falsehoods and own up to the fact that you already agreed that the dead can hear Jesus and that clearly destroys any semblance of your Regeneration before Belief doctrine.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Im letting it go, you obviously believe, a dead lazaus heard Jesus voice naturally and responded. No Miracle at all performed by Jesus
It is clear the spiritually dead must hear if they are to be made alive
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
A dead Lazarus hearing and coming out of the grave by God's power is definitely a miracle. Do you agree?
Christ naturally has the power to do that. Do you agree?
Own up to the fact that you already agreed that the dead can hear Jesus and that clearly destroys any semblance of your Regeneration before Belief doctrine.
I see that you have your "Im letting it go" escape hatch ready to escape from having to face the truth.
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And regeneration is through faith in the gospel
1 Peter 1:18–23 (ESV) — 18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes by] the word of Christ/God (depending on translation).
This clearly says you must receive the capability of hearing by the word of Christ/God before hearing can produce faith. Our natural state is the inability to hear.
See post #252 I'll post later more. RB
That is your religion. Paul doesn't say anything here about men before Faith. He is pointing out that the Pharisees didn't care if a Gentile was circumcised in the heart or not. If a man was a Gentile "in the flesh", he was judged as without hope. Not by God as you preach to the world, but judged by those who were called "the Circumcision".
If you would answer any of the questions I asked, we could have the discussion about this.
That isn't what Paul said, you are injecting your own words here. "Therefore remember that previously you, "the Gentiles in the flesh" who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision”".
You are injecting your own words, twisting Paul's message completely, "Therefore remember that previously you, "men of no Faith", who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision”.
This doesn't make any sense. Men of "No Faith" are the Uncircumcision, Jew or Gentile. This has always been the case.
You are preaching that now, by adding your own words, the "Wall of partition" you promote that God created was between "Men of Faith" vs "Men of no Faith", and that Jesus came to tear down that wall. Of course this is absurd.
The truth is that the Partition was between "Gentiles "in the Flesh" and "Jews in the flesh" "made with hands".
But Paul isn't talking about men of no Faith. The So called "circumcision" were men of no Faith. I simply am pointing out what Paul says. The "so-called" Circumcision, (Pharisees) had called Gentiles "in the flesh" uncircumcised. It didn't matter if they believed in God or not. Before Jesus exposed them and made a show of "Them", not God, openly, repentant faithful Gentiles "in the flesh", were not even allowed in the temple, were not even allowed atonement by the so-called "circumcision. Why would you ignore this undeniable biblical Fact.
This letter is not about men of no faith vs, men of no faith as you imply. The So-called "Circumcision" had no Faith. It's about the Pharisees creating Commandments contained in ordinances, which placed a partition that divided men by DNA. Gentile vs. Jew. As Paul is trying to teach you. But as the holy scriptures teach, God is no respecter of persons. It wasn't God who created the Partition, it was the So-called "circumcision.
I have been dealing with the false interpretation of Eph. 2, that you have adopted and are now promoting, for years. The result of your religious philosophy here, is that Jesus came to correct the unjust laws of His Father. Although popular, this philosophy is an insidious falsehood. And I have spent countless hours trying to persuade people to honestly engage about what is actually happening here in Eph. 2.
I have no dog in your fight with others, I am addressing the error of your teaching regarding what the Partition is, and who's commandments contained in ordinances deceived people into living by it.
But Paul isn't talking about faithless Gentiles. He is talking about Gentiles "in the flesh" who had turned to God "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins"
And the so-called "Circumcision, in the flesh made with hands", the only people on the planet where a man could go to hear about God, called Gentiles "in the flesh" who had Faith, "the uncircumcision", with no hope and without God in the world. Contrary to the Commandments of God.
Heb. 11: 31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
The children of the devil in Jesus time would have called Rahab "uncircumcised" and rejected her for the temple and would have rendered her as without God and without hope in the world.
Jesus exposed the mainstream religion of His Time, made a show of them openly on the cross, and broke down the wall of separation between race and DNA that the corrupt Jews has established.
"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Which is according to the commandments of God in the first place.
Lev. 19: 33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
The partition was created by the so-called "Circumcision" in the flesh made with hands. Not God's commandments.
I was addressing the popular but false religious philosophy you have adopted and are promoting regarding Eph. 2, that God, and His Law contained in ordinances divided men according to race and the DNA they were born with. And that Jesus had to come back and correct His Unjust Father, whose Commandments were against the Gentile who had turned to Him.
This is simply not true, although "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, preach it.
civic
Well-known member
Amen
brightfame52
Well-known member
Nothing here about spiritually dead people hearing to be made alive
brightfame52
Well-known member
Sir Im finished with it.
you obviously believe, a dead lazaus heard Jesus voice naturally and responded. No Miracle at all performed by Jesus
civic
Well-known member
Misrepresented him once again and put words in his mouth he never said
Are you referring to this quote in Post 252:
Actually, being in Christ or being without Christ can be viewed both nationally and individually. Here is an example of Andronicus and Junias being in Christ before Paul. That means that there was no unconditional election in Christ for Paul.
(Rom 16:7) Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Conclusion: There is no unconditional election to salvation anywhere in the entire Bible.
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