Unraveling the confusion of God’s Decree: 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith

[atpollard]

1689BCF: From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself.
Scripture:

• Isaiah 46:8-11 [NKJV]
  • “Remember this, and show yourselves men;
    Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
    Remember the former things of old,
    For I am God, and there is no other;
    I am God, and there is none like Me,
    Declaring the end from the beginning,
    And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
    Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
    And I will do all My pleasure,’
    Calling a bird of prey from the east,
    The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
    Indeed I have spoken it;
    I will also bring it to pass.
    I have purposed it;
    I will also do it.
• Ephesians 1:11-12 [NKJV] In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
• Hebrews 6:13-18 [NKJV] For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.” And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.
• Romans 9:14-18 [NKJV] What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

So let us examine the truth of the Decree of God:

1. Was it from all eternity?
   • Isaiah 46: “from the beginning” & “from ancient times”
2. Does God decree EVERYTHING that occurs?
   • Isaiah 46: “I will do all my pleasure”; Ephesians 1: “who works all things according to the council of His will”
3. Does it reference anything outside Himself?
   • Isaiah 46: “My council shall stand”; Ephesians 1: “according to the purpose of Him” & “council of His will”; Hebrews 6: “His council”; Romans 9: “whom He wills”

Can we accept the TRUTH of Scripture: “From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself.”? If not, which scripture are we challenging?

 

[praise_yeshua]

1689BCF: From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself.
Scripture:

• Isaiah 46:8-11 [NKJV]
  • “Remember this, and show yourselves men;
    Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
    Remember the former things of old,
    For I am God, and there is no other;
    I am God, and there is none like Me,
    Declaring the end from the beginning,
    And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
    Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
    And I will do all My pleasure,’
    Calling a bird of prey from the east,
    The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
    Indeed I have spoken it;
    I will also bring it to pass.
    I have purposed it;
    I will also do it.
• Ephesians 1:11-12 [NKJV] In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
• Hebrews 6:13-18 [NKJV] For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.” And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.
• Romans 9:14-18 [NKJV] What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

So let us examine the truth of the Decree of God:

1. Was it from all eternity?
   • Isaiah 46: “from the beginning” & “from ancient times”
2. Does God decree EVERYTHING that occurs?
   • Isaiah 46: “I will do all my pleasure”; Ephesians 1: “who works all things according to the council of His will”
3. Does it reference anything outside Himself?
   • Isaiah 46: “My council shall stand”; Ephesians 1: “according to the purpose of Him” & “council of His will”; Hebrews 6: “His council”; Romans 9: “whom He wills”

Can we accept the TRUTH of Scripture: “From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself.”? If not, which scripture are we challenging?

I've been around Baptist my entire life. They have never been much for consistency.

1. God has no beginning. He is beginning. BIG difference. Very poor theology.
2. No. God does not decree everything. The Scriptures referenced do not establish such a claim. The fact that God continues to work, means God is working AGAINST the decrees of others. God is too powerful to have anyone resist Him. Which means that when man resist Him........ God isn't trying to overpower them. If God tried, then HE WOULD. The argument is self defeating.
3. God's council will stand. The Scriptures reference a future time when God Himself will defeat His enemies. Right now, those enemies are flourishing. God will stop them.... Which means that God hasn't predestined everything.

 

[Rockson]

Scripture:

• Isaiah 46:8-11 [NKJV]
  • “Remember this, and show yourselves men;
    Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
    Remember the former things of old,
    For I am God, and there is no other;
    I am God, and there is none like Me,
    Declaring the end from the beginning,
    And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
    Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
    And I will do all My pleasure,’
    Calling a bird of prey from the east,
    The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
    Indeed I have spoken it;
    I will also bring it to pass.
    I have purposed it;
    I will also do it.

OK what was God's will. Part of it is that he gave MAN free will which he can exercise it against God. The Garden of Eden and the free will of man demonstrates this. Ironically if you think about it when you resist this truth you might consider that you're resisting God's good pleasure. Food for thought maybe?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

1689BCF: From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself.
Scripture:

• Isaiah 46:8-11 [NKJV]
  • “Remember this, and show yourselves men;
    Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
    Remember the former things of old,
    For I am God, and there is no other;
    I am God, and there is none like Me,
    Declaring the end from the beginning,
    And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
    Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
    And I will do all My pleasure,’
    Calling a bird of prey from the east,
    The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
    Indeed I have spoken it;
    I will also bring it to pass.
    I have purposed it;
    I will also do it.
• Ephesians 1:11-12 [NKJV] In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
• Hebrews 6:13-18 [NKJV] For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.” And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.
• Romans 9:14-18 [NKJV] What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

So let us examine the truth of the Decree of God:

1. Was it from all eternity?
   • Isaiah 46: “from the beginning” & “from ancient times”
2. Does God decree EVERYTHING that occurs?
   • Isaiah 46: “I will do all my pleasure”; Ephesians 1: “who works all things according to the council of His will”
3. Does it reference anything outside Himself?
   • Isaiah 46: “My council shall stand”; Ephesians 1: “according to the purpose of Him” & “council of His will”; Hebrews 6: “His council”; Romans 9: “whom He wills”

Can we accept the TRUTH of Scripture: “From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself.”? If not, which scripture are we challenging?

That should silence all objection. But it won't. People cling to their notion of free will out of unassailable pride.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

OK what was God's will. Part of it is that he gave MAN free will which he can exercise it against God. The Garden of Eden and the free will of man demonstrates this. Ironically if you think about it when you resist this truth you might consider that you're resisting God's good pleasure. Food for thought maybe?

Man is not like Adam as created. Man is like Adam as fallen. So to compare Adam's "free will" with ours is a non-sequitur.

 

[Rockson]

Man is not like Adam as created. Man is like Adam as fallen. So to compare Adam's "free will" with ours is a non-sequitur.

Well I'm glad you believe Adam/Eve at had free will. If free will was a good thing then I wonder why you think God would change that.

 

[atpollard]

OK what was God's will.

PROGRESS! We can agree that the statement "From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself." is an accurate paraphrase of the TRUTH of Scripture.

Part of it is that he gave MAN free will which he can exercise it against God. The Garden of Eden and the free will of man demonstrates this.

I welcome your SCRIPTURAL support for YOUR proposed statement of "truth" (truth is only in quotes because without scripture, it has not yet been proven True). This seems to have THREE PARTS:

1. Did Adam have free will?
2. Did Adam exercise free will against God in the Garden of Eden?
3. Do we have free will like Adam?

You will probably need to define 'free will'. If we define 'free will' as "the ability to perform some action", the discussion becomes trite and merely proves that people are not statues. (Nobody ever claimed they were, so that serves no purpose).

The question given the verses in the opening post is "Does man violate the Decree of God?"

Ironically if you think about it when you resist this truth you might consider that you're resisting God's good pleasure. Food for thought maybe?

Deuteronomy 8:3 [ESV] "And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD."

I am not looking for things to merely "think about" in this topic, I seek TRUTH from the Word of God.

 

[atpollard]

1689BCF: From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself.

Continuing:

1689BCF: He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin.

Scripture:

• James 1:12-15 [NKJV] Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
• 1 John 1:5-7 [NKJV] This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So let us examine the truth of the Decree of God:

1. We already determined that God did do it, so was it "by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will"?
   
   • This is a continuation of the affirmation established by the verses examined in Isaiah 46, Ephesians 1, Hebrews 6, and Romans 9.
   • It merely affirms the attributes of God (perfectly wise and holy) established earlier in the 1689BCF [available upon request] and combines them with the "council of His own will" established from scripture in the OP.
2. Is God the author (source, creator) of sin?
   
   • James 1: "nor does He tempt anyone"; 1 John 1: "God is light and in him there is no darkness at all".
3. Does God have fellowship with any in their sin?
   
   • James 1: "each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed"; 1 John 1: "God is light and in him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie"

Can we accept the TRUTH of Scripture: “From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin.”? If not, which scriptures are we challenging?

 

[praise_yeshua]

PROGRESS! We can agree that the statement "From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself." is an accurate paraphrase of the TRUTH of Scripture.

No. "We" can't agree. We can't agree because it is not true. God did not decree your sin nor mine.

I welcome your SCRIPTURAL support for YOUR proposed statement of "truth" (truth is only in quotes because without scripture, it has not yet been proven True). This seems to have THREE PARTS:

1. Did Adam have free will?
2. Did Adam exercise free will against God in the Garden of Eden?
3. Do we have free will like Adam?

The question given the verses in the opening post is "Does man violate the Decree of God?"

1. Adam sinned from the very beginning. Sin is proof of freewill.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2. By knowingly choosing Eve over God.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

3. Yes. You prove it by willfully sinning yourself.

What does the word "willful" mean?

You will probably need to define 'free will'. If we define 'free will' as "the ability to perform some action", the discussion becomes trite and merely proves that people are not statues. (Nobody ever claimed they were, so that serves no purpose).

What is this "we" you keep using. You have plenty of opportunity to define it yourself. You're "poisoning the well".....

Freewill is the desire to have your own way. It is how Satan sinned. It does not mean you have the power to accomplish what you want in this life. In our "mind".... we think we can do anything. Which the proof of freewill.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Continuing:

1689BCF: He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin.

Scripture:

• James 1:12-15 [NKJV] Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
• 1 John 1:5-7 [NKJV] This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So let us examine the truth of the Decree of God:

1. We already determined that God did do it, so was it "by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will"?
   
   • This is a continuation of the affirmation established by the verses examined in Isaiah 46, Ephesians 1, Hebrews 6, and Romans 9.
   • It merely affirms the attributes of God (perfectly wise and holy) established earlier in the 1689BCF [available upon request] and combines them with the "council of His own will" established from scripture in the OP.
2. Is God the author (source, creator) of sin?
   
   • James 1: "nor does He tempt anyone"; 1 John 1: "God is light and in him there is no darkness at all".
3. Does God have fellowship with any in their sin?
   
   • James 1: "each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed"; 1 John 1: "God is light and in him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie"

Can we accept the TRUTH of Scripture: “From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin.”? If not, which scriptures are we challenging?

Here comes more inconsistencies......

You agreed that God decreed sin, yet you somehow claim that God is not the author of sin.....

Do you see silly such things are? If God decreed sin, then God is the author of sin.

 

[civic]

Man is not like Adam as created. Man is like Adam as fallen. So to compare Adam's "free will" with ours is a non-sequitur.

cite a verse where adams nature changed after the fall.

oops there is none its a fallacy and an argument from silence.

 

[praise_yeshua]

cite a verse where adams nature changed after the fall.

oops there is none its a fallacy and an argument from silence.

You would think they would believe when Satan said "I will"..... they would understand what sin is.

 

[civic]

Here comes more inconsistencies......

You agreed that God decreed sin, yet you somehow claim that God is not the author of sin.....

Do you see silly such things are? If God decreed sin, then God is the author of sin.

Yes the confession makes God culpable/responsible , the Author and determiner of sin and evil. All things are determined/predestined by Him according to His will and good pleasure. Calling evil/sin good is unbiblical, oxymoron, contradicts the LNC and is an assault on Gods character.

 

[Rockson]

PROGRESS! We can agree that the statement "From all eternity ....

Oh don't be quick to complement me that I made your type of progress. lol I asked OK what was God's will? and went ahead t tell you.

Part of it is that he gave MAN free will which he can exercise it against God.

Then I went ahead to tell you about Adam and Eve having free will in the garden.

We can agree that the statement "From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs,

Um no....most certainly we cannot do that.

I welcome your SCRIPTURAL support for YOUR proposed statement of "truth" (truth is only in quotes because without scripture, it has not yet been proven True). This seems to have THREE PARTS:

So you're saying I need or must give you a scripture with the actual words God gave Adam and Eve free will. It's self evident they had it. A simple reading of the text tells you that if you're reading it in simplicity as even a child would and he tells us to receive the Kingdom as a child.

 

[civic]

Oh don't be quick to complement me that I made your type of progress. lol I asked OK what was God's will? and went ahead t tell you.

Part of it is that he gave MAN free will which he can exercise it against God.

Then I went ahead to tell you about Adam and Eve having free will in the garden.


Um no....most certainly we cannot do that.



So you're saying I need or must give you a scripture with the actual words God gave Adam and Eve free will. It's self evident they had it. A simple reading of the text tells you that if you're reading it in simplicity as even a child would and he tells us to receive the Kingdom as a child.

by their own criteria and double standards calvinism- the doctrines of grace are unprovable.

Total Depravity like free will is not mentioned in scripture
Unconditional Election like free will is not mentioned in scripture
Limited Atonement like free will is not mentioned in scripture
Irresistible Grace like free will is not mentioned in scripture
Perseverance of the Saints like free will is not mentioned in scripture

 

[Rockson]

1. Did Adam have free will?

Yes But don't get silly on me. Free will doesn't mean Adam could do whatever he wanted. He couldn't say I]m going to jump up in the air and fly like a bird. He couldn't say I'm going to walk on the Moon today. He could choose LIFE over DEATH however. He could choose to be obedient to God.

I am not looking for things to merely "think about" in this topic, I seek TRUTH from the Word of God.

Well I've found if I always say boldly this is truth from the word of God they get their backs up, thus I many times say give it some thought. Seeing you don't OK....what I shared with you is TRUTH from the Word of God. Now remember....don't get upset!

 

[atpollard]

So you're saying I need or must give you a scripture with the actual words God gave Adam and Eve free will. It's self evident they had it. A simple reading of the text tells you that if you're reading it in simplicity as even a child would and he tells us to receive the Kingdom as a child.

I already addressed that point ...

You will probably need to define 'free will'. If we define 'free will' as "the ability to perform some action", the discussion becomes trite and merely proves that people are not statues. (Nobody ever claimed they were, so that serves no purpose).

Once you define "free will" as YOU use the term, then you can demonstrate from scripture:

1. Did Adam have free will?
2. Did Adam exercise free will against God in the Garden of Eden?
3. Do we have free will like Adam?

Without an understanding of free will, there is no meaningful conversation.

Here is an example:

FREE WILL: [definition] the ability to make choices completely independent of any and all external influences.

1. Did Adam have free will?
   • Probably, the Bible is silent on this specifically, but when God allowed Adam to name all of the animals, it indicates that Adam was free to act independent of any external sources. So at THAT POINT, Adam had free will.
2. Did Adam exercise free will against God in the Garden of Eden?
   • No. As we have defined free will, it excludes outside influences. Adam's actions against God in the Garden were influenced by both Eve and the Serpent. Therefore, Adam had lost the "100% FREE" will that he had when he named the animals.
3. Do we have free will like Adam?
   • No. Humans are never 100% free of external influences. How we were raised and past experiences have an influence on our decisions.

I have merely demonstrated that how one defines "Free Will" is critical and I have no idea what YOU mean by the vague and deeply personal term when you use it. However, I will point out that without any scripture support, one is merely posting opinions (like what I posted above) and only SCRIPTURE would elevate those opinions to Truth. What I say is irrelevant. What God said is EVERYTHING!

 

[atpollard]

Oh don't be quick to complement me that I made your type of progress. lol I asked OK what was God's will? and went ahead t tell you.

Part of it is that he gave MAN free will which he can exercise it against God.

Then I went ahead to tell you about Adam and Eve having free will in the garden.

So you reject EVERYTHING that God said in the OP (the quoted scripture) as false and incorrect?
Perhaps you should start by commenting on what God had to say and establishing from scripture who DID decree everything and whose COUNCIL God does obey?

Adam and Eve are the LEAST of our concerns ... if you reject the whole word of God.

 

[Rockson]

by their own criteria and double standards calvinism- the doctrines of grace are unprovable.

Total Depravity like free will is not mentioned in scripture
Unconditional Election like free will is not mentioned in scripture
Limited Atonement like free will is not mentioned in scripture
Irresistible Grace like free will is not mentioned in scripture
Perseverance of the Saints like free will is not mentioned in scripture

So you're saying they're allowed to assert some things are self evident without an actual verse saying it but we're not? But Civic that would be like staking the deck in their favor. I just want to believe the best of them that they're reasonable people and will quickly dial back some of their requests. I don't want to believe they want an unfair advantage in discussion. Or do they? We'll see. I'm sure they might be answering soon.

 

[civic]

So you're saying they're allowed to assert some things are self evident without an actual verse saying it but we're not? But Civic that would be like staking the deck in their favor. I just want to believe the best of them that they're reasonable people and will quickly dial back some of their requests. I don't want to believe they want an unfair advantage in discussion. Or do they? We'll see. I'm sure they might be answering soon.

The problem is they will not admit its a double standard- I didn't either when i was a calvinist for 40 plus years. Trust me if they admit its a double standard which it is then their whole systematic theology crumbles. They will not have an apologetic defense.