Understanding........

[The Rogue Tomato]

No one is beyond God's control. Your "free will" cannot supersede God's will under ANY circumstances.

 

[Rockson]

No one is beyond God's control. Your "free will" cannot supersede God's will under ANY circumstances.

Why can't you just let God do whatever he wants? Why don't you allow him to hold back from things ;he'd like to see but for principles rooted in love allows his creation to learn from their mistakes?

 

[TomL]

Of course it wouldn't be Tom. That other way of thinking takes rational thinking and throws it into the trash.

Yep being a Calvinist requires one reject rational thought and intuitive understanding

 

[Presby02]

In a sense or in a certain stage of time. God might step in if one had their finger on a nuke button who was going to push it and say, UM no you don't. I have my time for the destruction of the earth and it certainly is not right now. When it comes to all matters of salvation he has let mankind be the controlling factor as to whether they respond to him. God however will take upon himself ultimate control at the judgement.....NO ONE....absolutely no one will be able to say I'm not going to face the consequences of my bad decisions. THEY WILL. God will control that whether they like that or not.

There ya go. Our omnipotent God is not always in control. Our God who upholds and sustains all things might step in. When you allow Him to.

 

[Presby02]

Of course... What's the alternative? GOD creates for us the evil we will do then impels us to do it??? Riiiiight.....<sigh>

We must be sinners by our own free will, not HIS will but once we are sinners by our free will then our lives of sin can be properly determined by GOD as the best life to bring us to redemption.

God does not have to impel you to do evil.

Who said your must be a sinner by your own free will?

 

[Presby02]

The question was

How is something controlled by another free for you

it is rather intuitive it is not

Your question is nonsensical.

 

[Presby02]

Yep being a Calvinist requires one reject rational thought and intuitive understanding

More empty rhetoric.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Why can't you just let God do whatever he wants? Why don't you allow him to hold back from things ;he'd like to see but for principles rooted in love allows his creation to learn from their mistakes?

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Why can't you just let God do whatever he wants with His own creation? Why do you have to filter scripture through your own assumptions about what God should do?

 

[TomL]

More empty rhetoric.

Truth actually

How rational is it is that God determines man acts and then judges him based on his determination

How rational is it to say say God restrains man when he determines all that men think, say, desire or do

 

[TomL]

Your question is nonsensical.

I will leave that for the readers to decide

The question was

How is something controlled by another free for you

it is rather intuitive it is not

 

[Presby02]

I will leave that for the readers to decide

The question was

How is something controlled by another free for you

it is rather intuitive it is not

That's fine. Maybe someone else can understand your nonsensical question.

 

[Rockson]

There ya go. Our omnipotent God is not always in control.

In a certain type of way but not in the way that you think.

 

[Presby02]

Truth actually

How rational is it is that God determines man acts and then judges him based on his determination

How rational is it to say say God restrains man when he determines all that men think, say, desire or do

Such as Acts 4 27 and 28? Is God irrational? How about David numbering Israel?

Restraint is part of how He determines what occurs or does not occur? Doesn't the Holy Spirit restrain sin? Is He being irrational?

 

[Rockson]

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand,

That was a choosing for what line the Messiah would come and NOTHING to do with salvation of an individual.

not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

God favored Jacob's line through which the Messiah would come. Nothing to do with Esau's salvation.

Why can't you just let God do whatever he wants with His own creation?

Aren't you demonstrating again you don't really believe what you say you believe? If you did you wouldn't ask me that question. You'd believe and know I was ordained to and forced to before birth.

 

[Presby02]

In a certain type of way but not in the way that you think.

In a certain kind of way? What certain kind of way?

 

[Rockson]

Why can't you just let God do whatever he wants with His own creation? Why do you have to filter scripture through your own assumptions about what God should do?

So back to my question. Why can't you allow God to hold back from enforcing things he'd like to see for principles of love? Why can't you grasp that by not forcing everything to be his way in a certain era of time that he might achieve something FAR GREATER as compared to doing it YOUR way. What would that be? A LOVE consciousness to be within his creation.

 

[Taylor]

I'll start with the KJV.

1Co 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Paul deals with understanding in 1 Corinthians 14. Like many Calvinists, there were people at Corinth claiming to know things that others could not know via "special" understanding. Calvinism in this sense isn't something new. The "base" position has always been around. It is nothing more than a means whereby another man/person seeks to claim understand that can not be easily understood by another person. Thusly, eliminating any OPPOSING questions.

However. We can read the Scriptures and teaching of Paul and KNOW, they're trying to deceive others. The requirement for understanding is based upon the clearness of speech of the speaker. Not the hearer. The SPEAKER..........

1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

Thusly the requirement for spiritual knowledge is based upon the ability of the SPEAKER. Not the hearer.

Can we confirm this fact from other areas of the Bible? Why certainly....

Just a chapter over.....

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Did Paul blame God for their lack of understanding? Who is reasonable for their lack of knowledge?

Is there any other areas? Certainly....

2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

The Innate power of the words of the speaker is what enlightens.

1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

See how the Scriptures disarm the claims of "special revelation" in regeneration made by poor speakers?

This is definitely an interesting thread, I'm glad I found it. Special revelation is recorded in the Bible, and it contains very specific information about God not accessible from general revelation. For example, by special revelation we learn that salvation is through Jesus Christ. Although initially given to particular people at particular times in history, special revelation is nevertheless fitted for all. This means that the spiritual truths, divine promises, ethical principles, and instructions for an abundant life are available to all people.

However there is a problem inherent in special revelation is how can God convince people who did not personally receive this revelation that it is genuine, that it really comes from Him. To do this, God must give evidence that His chosen messengers, those to whom special revelation was given and who recorded it in the Bible, have His authority. So special revelation depends on miracles to affirm that “the one who bears the revelation [proves] that he is actually from God.

The problem was easy to see on TV in the '80s with all the self-proclaimed faith Healers. I believe that's pretty much died out.
But I still have a few boxes but miracle prayer cloths in my garage that I'll let go cheap.

I've always wanted to say that.

 

[Rockson]

In a certain kind of way? What certain kind of way?

In a certain type of way where he has ultmate control or makes decisions at the end of time what will be the fate of one's who receive his grace and ones which don't. Until the end of time he allows liberty for people to make their own decisions .

And look you don't need to express bewilderment as what I"m saying or that you can't figure it out. You know full what what I'm saying. If somebody said to you of another they're a very controlling individual you would certainly KNOW that would mean they don't have the character trait of LOVE.

 

[Presby02]

In a certain type of way where he has ultmate control or makes decisions at the end of time what will be the fate of one's who receive his grace and ones which don't. Until the end of time he allows liberty for people to make their own decisions .

And look you don't need to express bewilderment as what I"m saying or that you can't figure it out. You know full what what I'm saying. If somebody said to you of another they're a very controlling individual you would certainly KNOW that would mean they don't have the character trait of LOVE.

It's not about what He allows, it's about what He controls. You inferred there are things beyond God's control. Or did you mean He simply chooses not to control?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

In a certain type of way where he has ultmate control or makes decisions at the end of time what will be the fate of one's who receive his grace and ones which don't. Until the end of time he allows liberty for people to make their own decisions .

And look you don't need to express bewilderment as what I"m saying or that you can't figure it out. You know full what what I'm saying. If somebody said to you of another they're a very controlling individual you would certainly KNOW that would mean they don't have the character trait of LOVE.

Who are you to say God being in control means He doesn't have the character of love? You're applying human emotional reasoning to God. GOD. Humble yourself a bit, okay?