So controlling my kids means I don't love them? Strange arguement
Understanding........
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
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civic
Well-known member
And we know they represent nations from the context
UM Acts 4:27, 28 does not state God gave them their desire to kill Christ
Restrain the sin God decreed/determined them to want to do in Calvinism?. That is Ggod restraining his own determination/decree
Calling it nonsensical does not make it go away
The question was
How is something controlled by another free for you
it is rather intuitive, that it is not
Again, if someone could explain this nonsensical question or help him reword it I would be most appreciative.
Restraint is part of what is determined.
It does state He gathered them together to do what He had planned and determined. God moves the heart. The heart is the seat of your desires.
Again their desire was determined by God so what is being restrain is God's determination
Calling it nonsensical does not make it go away
The question was
How is something controlled by another free for you
or
How can actions which are controlled by another be free actions on your part
it is rather intuitive, that it is not
Your question is nonsensical.
Of course not...but to say that all is determined by GOD includes our becoming a sinner and accruing sinfulness, it implies HE DOES IMPEL US TO SIN which I consider a blasphemy against HIS loving goodness and righteous
holiness.
Who said??? Prudent rationality, that's who!
IF I am not a sinner by my own free will then whoever willed me to sin is the sinner and by the lack of mens rea, I cannot be held guilty for the sins I do...true guilt proves my free will as GOD cannot and would never cause anyone to sin.
It implies no such thing. You imply it. I don't. Your view makes a mockery of God's omniscience.
You are a sinner by your own free will. Who says otherwise?
No one says God is the first cause of your sin or the efficient cause. .
But it is very clear in the story that the twins were trying to crush each other to pieces ! not just jostling for room! Their intent was deadly and without just cause, therefor murderous. Even if one was fighting for his life in self defence, the other was set on murder. This murderous impulse was definitely sinful.
Now Paul as an educated scholar of the bible obviously knew of their sinfulness in the womb (no matter how this truth has been twisted into obscurity by modern translations and niceties) so when he referred to the time before they were born when they had not yet sinned, he could NOT have been referring to their time in the womb where at least one was being sinful (but probably both) which implies they existed and were working out past decisions made BEFORE their conception in the womb, ie, in the heavenly realms before the foundation of the world.
So we either have a blatant contradiction, the children WERE being evil before birth when Paul says they weren't and must dismiss Paul's works theology as being somewhat amiss, or we have to admit that the Pauline definition of works does not exclude pre-conception works from being a part of the basis of our election.
This story also begs answers to the question:
How could the twins in the womb know anything about the law of primogeniture in the Hebrew culture (or even that they would be born INTO the Hebrew culture) if they were newly created at conception as tabula rasa ??? which is the reason GOD gave Rebecca for why they were fighting so hard!
Do we think GOD doesn't know how to talk properly to get a simple idea across so HE used crushing each other to pieces to actually mean something much different and more ordinary? Must we think that GOD was just making things up about them fighting to kill each other over who would be first born as a way to tell us that the elder would serve the younger? <sigh>
Pre-Conception Existence theology contends that we made our free will choices to put our faith in HIM for salvation and were chosen, elected, to salvation if we should ever become evil in HIS sight, as HIS response to our faith in HIM well before the foundation of this universe and world. Some elect did choose to sin in HIS sight becoming HIS sheep gone astray and needing redemption and sanctification, were sown into, not created in, this world, Matt 13:36-39, to fulfill HIS redemptive purpose...
(or so it reads unless we change HIS words to mean something else to fit our preconceptions about our creation and fall better.)
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Maybe your definition of omniscience...
GOD's omniscience, Calvin's failure:
Calvin followed the pagan Greek wisdom definition of omniscience brought into the church by the Greek idolizers and Augustine: ie, GOD knows everything that can be known from eternity past to eternity future. Certainly sounds all Godly and all eh? To bad it is a blasphemy...
GOD is Love, holy, righteous and Just before all else. All doctrine must conform to HIS nature. All doctrine that impugnes HIS nature is a blasphemy.
This definition of HIS omniscience implies that HE knew before their creation who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY!!! This is not loving; it is not righteous; it is not just - no matter how many books of theo-babble have been written to try to make it so - therefore it is blasphemy.
GOD does all things for HIS pleasure but HE takes NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked - therefore HE did not create them evil to go to hell! Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked...
Also, HE wants all people to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4...who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. so whether HE will get this want fulfilled or not, HE obviously did NOT create anyone evil and without hope for salvation, ie, destined to hell at or even before creation!
So what do I offer in its place? Acts 15:18 KJB Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. To be precise, HE knows all HIS works, usually accepted to be referring to all that HE was created by HIS creative decrees, which implies that IF HE did not create something by HIS creative decree, HE DOES NOT KNOW IT.
Also, these things HE knows from, since, the beginning of the world, not BEFORE creation, not since eternity past. Therefore we have good Biblical reason to reject the pagan wisdom the ancient Church idolized.
This biblical definition of what HE knows also implies that If HE did NOT create the results of our free will decisions but let us create those results by our free will according to what we most wanted, THEN HE did not know these results of our free will decisions UNTIL we created the for ourselves and brought them into reality.
Therefore NO ONE was created evil; not before Adam (Satan etc) nor after Adam (you, me) but all sinners were created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose to become holy or eternally evil and then all sinners, elect and reprobate, were sown into, not created in, the world as per Matt 13:38-39.
The doctrine that all things are determined by GOD which implies we have no free will which implies we are sinners by HIS will yet condemned for that makes this claim, that's who.
Define God's omniscience
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Your god is incompetent. He wants all people to be saved and yet most of them are going to hell.
Nope. God does determine all things and your will is free.
Yup. He tries His best I'm sure.
Because your God determined it that way
“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
Amen.
That does not excuse your indeterministic God.who is unable to save those He wishes to save. I'm sure He gives it a good effort.
He saves all who will believe just as he states
John 3:14–16 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
He never claimed to save unbelievers
or to doom from the womb any as your theology teaches
