Dizerner
Active Member
Paul was not angry when he wrote Romans, lol.
On the Cross it does—justice combined with mercy.
Transmitting The Fallen Nature
- Thread starter Olde Tymer
- Start date
Paul was not angry when he wrote Romans, lol.
On the Cross it does—justice combined with mercy.
GeneZ
Active Member
God's justice doesn't always give us what we think we need.
Justice always perfectly gets us what God knows we need.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
He was mad at those who opposed him and the Gospel he preached.
While I believe the writings of Paul are inspired, they also include his opinions. I have argued for a very long time that Paul never sought to add to the Scriptures. Never. In fact he appealed to the fact he was simply preaching the Scriptures. Not writing them himself. This is no criticism of you brother but facts are facts. If you've have had the extensive canonical discussion and diabetes that I have had in my life you would recognize such theological distinctions and details. What always matters "is it true" or isn't it. Many debates are ended with appeals to "inspiration".
Should we celebrate the damnation of those who resist us? It is a simple question.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Then what does justice gift you?
Dizerner
Active Member
praise_yeshua
Active Member
The Atonement was planned before Adam disobeyed God. It did not take God by surprise and it had nothing to do with "seeing the entirety of eternity" to discern the actions of men.I don't even know what a reactionary atonement is to say whether I believe in it.
I don't agree with some of what you have said here, but I do agree with you that Adam was not that "new creature". If any man be in Christ he is a never before seen new creature (2Cor.5:17) but that doesn't alter what we are and how we function as human beings on this planet. Just as a 2yo is no different to a 10yo in respect to being a human being, yet how we deal with those two age groups are different.
Most probably best we leave the conversation at this point or we might end up confusing each other. We appear to have more differences than things in common with respect to how man functions.
Arminianism is horribly flawed in such teachings. God made Adam peccable and without the necessary knowledge to prevent him from sin. He made man capable of rejecting Him. God made man capable of rejecting Him. Such doesn't initially lead to perfection. I could talk about this for hours but it is true that what I'm saying to you is entirely foreign to what you've believed. I'm comfortable discussing this at length. It is rare anymore that I have such conversations. It requires accepting many things contrary to what most people believe anymore.
Innocence is innocence and not always relative to age.
Do you remember when Paul said clearly that he received mercy because he had committed sin ignorantly in unbelief?
A grown man ignorant in unbelief. There is a huge difference between knowing better and being entirely consumed in a lie to the point of not being able to even "get your feet under you"....
There is evil in this life among the children of Adam that damns. It is those who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Those who know the reality of freedom that wiling choose enslavement.
This life is designed to teach us. Designed to foster in humanity a self aware knowledge of God. We know "god" by living like Him in theology and natural choices. It is important to God that we understand what we choose.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
That is Grace and Mercy. I think you realize the mistake you're making. I don't need to keep bothering you. I don't want to see you continue resisting. We can discuss after this has time for you to meditate. It takes time for the truth to change us.This:
Dizerner
Active Member
You still don't get it, do you.
God gives us JUSTICE that IS grace and mercy.
JUST GRACE.
JUST MERCY.
Isn't that amazing??!!
GeneZ
Active Member
It all depends upon what side of God's will you are on...
I appreciate your willingness to discuss at length but the problem I'm having is firstly, I don't think God was taken by surprise either and also I'm not strictly an Arminian or Calvinist but somewhere inbetween. You seem to making assumptions about what I believe which in turn leads you into a misunderstanding of what I'm saying.
Adam had all the knowledge he needed not to sin. He knew which tree and he knew what eating and not eating was. The fact remains he wanted to sin and it was "convenient" for him to listen to his wife repeat the devil's lie than to believe the truth of God.
I'm well versed in real evil born of a willing rejection of the Lord, not simply that which is born of ignorance of truth. The Lord has mercy on ignorance. (1Tim.1:13). We don't need to know everything, we just need to know enough.
There is much that can be said but I think until there is a better understanding between the two of us, things might get lost in translation (so to speak). As I said earlier, I'm not wholly sure I know what you are getting at by some of your responses and I don't want to assume you mean one thing when you really are looking at something from a completely different angle.
GeneZ
Active Member
Paul could get angry with the Judaizers. But not angry as he wrote Romans.
Paul was like Jesus being angry with the religious Pharisees.
Jesus was not always angry. But, in parts of the Gospels he was.
civic
Active Member
You can be angry a sin not as Paul instructs and as Jesus displayed with the Pharisees.
hope this helps !!!
praise_yeshua
Active Member
You're conflating.
Grace allows man to do what they want to do. It gifts freedom absent justice/judgement. When you grant freedom, it requires the allowances of sin.
In no sense is there a grant to establish sin. It is a matter of will. Grace both allows sin and condemns sin. It is a matter of the self will.
Which is why I've been arguing with you about Christ not serving sin. Your demands for justice REQUIRES His death. He did not die FOR SIN..... He died for US.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
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Dizerner
Active Member
No, that is "permissiveness."
God never just "throws away" justice.
And this my major complaint against those who perversely deny PSA.
All mercy and grace comes to us because Christ earned it.
How dare you take away from the worthiness of Christ by denying PSA!
civic
Active Member
PSA is unbiblical which is why he and many others here reject its false teachings.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
My reference to Arminianism was NOT an attempt to tie you to the doctrine. It was simply a reference. I rejected both close to 30 years ago now. We are similar but I'm dealing with what YOU say. I don't want to make assumptions.
I disagree. He might have known some things but his knowledge was limited. I personally believe and I have stated before that Adam willingly chose to save Eve. To not watch as Eve was judged alone.
It worked. He saved her.
Can you tell me why Adam would wanted to abandon Eve? Should Adam have just obeyed God and watched as Eve was judged?
I'm well versed in real evil born of a willing rejection of the Lord, not simply that which is born of ignorance of truth. The Lord has mercy on ignorance. (1Tim.1:13). We don't need to know everything, we just need to know enough.
There is much that can be said but I think until there is a better understanding between the two of us, things might get lost in translation (so to speak). As I said earlier, I'm not wholly sure I know what you are getting at by some of your responses and I don't want to assume you mean one thing when you really are looking at something from a completely different angle.
If you can resist the impulse to believe Adam died spiritual, maybe we can talk about alternatives.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Nonsense. Grace and freedom allows the choice to reject God. God has been good to sinners that reject Him. You included. That is Grace.
Then why are you still alive? Have you sinned to the point of deserving death since you accepted Christ. I know I have.
False claim. I have repeatedly said that Christ was worthy. You know I have. You're falsely creating the requirement that I meet your standard.
God has the record.....
Christ didn't serve your sin.
Do those who sin more demand more Grace? Do those that sin less, demand less Grace? Do those that accepted Christ at an early age find less need for "Justice" and those who get "in" on their deathbed?
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GeneZ
Active Member
Right!
Ephesians 4:26
"Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun set on your anger."
In other words?
Be angry at evil....
And then, let go, and leave it in God's hands.
grace and peace ...........
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Dizerner
Active Member
BECAUSE JESUS DIED MY DEATH.
Welcome...
...to the Gospel!!!!
Please read this:
GeneZ
Active Member
??????? Really?
Grace enables man to do what God wants man to do, which man normally is unable and too weak to do.
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power
is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more
gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. " 2 Corinthians 12:9
Many confuse feelings of God's love or mercy for His grace.
Grace is God's provision for inward enabling for believers do do His will.
A will to live in a manner that would be impossible to accomplish in man's own power.
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect.
No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me."
1 Corinthians 15:10
grace and peace...................
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