Transmitting The Fallen Nature

[Dizerner]

Free will choices aren't "necessary," we aren't Calvinists here.

God doesn't author evil choices.

 

[civic]

Torturing yourself to show you love someone is just stupid.

Do you nail yourself on a cross just to show your wife how much you love her?

There has to be a valid reason for it.

He didn’t torture Himself read the Bible . The Jews and Roman’s did

 

[praise_yeshua]

Your suffering, huh.

Yes. I suffer.

Psa 103:8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
Psa 103:9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
Psa 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Psa 103:14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

Adam was dust without the Grace of God.

That dust was the ashes of destruction all around us.

What do you think you should suffer?

You certainly don't think you should suffer since Christ for your sin. Tell me, why do you continue to suffer?

The Truth is that WE are incomplete. They without US......

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The offspring of Adam in the new creature/creation are incomplete without everyone else. The "FAMILY" of God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Free will choices aren't "necessary," we aren't Calvinists here.

God doesn't author evil choices.

What are you talking about here? Are you denying the freedom of will?

 

[sawdust]

No over and over God says it was love, not once justice. Your justice argument is no different than the Calvinist sovereignty argument. It comes from the exact same point of view. It’s a blind spot with you for some reason that you cannot or will not see it.

Can love and justice be divorced? I haven't followed your discussion so maybe I'm misunderstanding but can a loving God truly allow His word to pass by unfulfilled? We should have been forsaken yet the Lord sought Adam in the Garden and has continued to minister to man by His grace and will do to the end. If Christ had not taken the consequences of sin on our behalf then none of us could have passed over when God pours out His wrath at the end of days. If all of us had to pay the wages of sin, then the death that we only taste now, would have been permanent and without hope of escape.

It seems to that the love of God has been poured out by dealing justice on sin and keeping His word.

 

[Dizerner]

You certainly don't think you should suffer since Christ for your sin. Tell me, why do you continue to suffer?

You are world class at not answering the question, my man.

Can you literally answer the question for once?

What do you think you should suffer?

 

[Dizerner]

What are you talking about here? Are you denying the freedom of will?

No.

Why would you even think that, it's the opposite of what I said.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I would like to hear your alternative first if you don't mind. I agree with you in that God expected Adam to sin, in fact, I would go further and say it was necessary so God could work out His plan.

I'd like to split the words "necessary" and "planned". God made plans. In my opinion, "necessary" isn't in view. When you start talking about necessity relative to our existence, then you're beginning to REQUIRE God's actions in humanity. Grace is not a requirement. God doesn't owe us any action whatsoever.

Do you do what you please with your own property?

The Calvinist view overstates these words from Paul. Paul is simply establishing the right God has to do as He pleases. This doesn't establish that God takes actions to force man against his own will to accept God. It is simply right of ownership. We are HIS offspring. Acts 17.

I would also say it was just as necessary Adam would repent, something that doesn't get talked of much. If he had been an unrepentant Pharaoh of the Exodus type, I don't think the Lord could have got His message through to us as effectively, that being, evil and sin originates within the will.

There are different bodies. This is true of Adam in his original state.

1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

I know Paul is speaking of the Resurrection but it is applicable to the "glory" in Adam's original state. We are but dust. Adam was not created in the "glory" of our future state.

Based on what you have said so far in respect to Adam dying, I'm curious ....
Do you believe Adam would have died physically whether he sinned or not? If not, what do think changed to bring about death?

Adam depended upon God for life. Without the presence of God and direct action of God to sustain Adam. He had no life.

I don't believe this question gets us where we need to be.

The better question is "would God have continue to sustain Adam as he was? I see no reason to believe otherwise. I believe God would have.

The question is one of "innate" qualities. "Gifts" bestowed.

Studying the HU and nature of Divinity will help us understand what "innate" means. It is a quality in and of itself. Adam never innately had eternal life before he sinned. Christ established such for humanity.

 

[civic]

Can love and justice be divorced? I haven't followed your discussion so maybe I'm misunderstanding but can a loving God truly allow His word to pass by unfulfilled? We should have been forsaken yet the Lord sought Adam in the Garden and has continued to minister to man by His grace and will do to the end. If Christ had not taken the consequences of sin on our behalf then none of us could have passed over when God pours out His wrath at the end of days. If all of us had to pay the wages of sin, then the death that we only taste now, would have been permanent and without hope of escape.

It seems to that the love of God has been poured out by dealing justice on sin and keeping His word.

A address the nature of God ( His attributes) in depth in this OP that I wrote on the atonement.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-nature-of-god-in-the-atonement.30/

 

[praise_yeshua]

You are world class at not answering the question, my man.

Can you literally answer the question for once?

What do you think you should suffer?

I was answering it. I should suffer death. The absence of life.

Do you value life? I've said for many many years that what good is something that "ENDS"?

It as wonderful argument to challenge an atheist upon. They pretend that life has value apart from continuation.

What value is there of life if it ends.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No.

Why would you even think that, it's the opposite of what I said.

I honestly don't understand your statement. Sorry. I'm trying. My fault.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Can love and justice be divorced?

Yes. Do you have children? Do you kill them when they commit sin because of your sense of justice?

Sin is really more than just disobedience. Adam caused our deaths but the sin that damns is more than just disobedience. That sin requires more than just the disobedience of Adam. It is unbelief. Denying the word of God demanding faith. Faith pleases God.

I ask that you think a little about what I just wrote. I don't believe your theology has ever really embraced this. Adam didn't damn his children to destruction.

I haven't followed your discussion so maybe I'm misunderstanding but can a loving God truly allow His word to pass by unfulfilled? We should have been forsaken yet the Lord sought Adam in the Garden and has continued to minister to man by His grace and will do to the end.

Correct. He did. Which should tell you that what you're saying isn't accurate. If you've ever loved your own, you know that justice doesn't forgive. If sin requires death then justice demands death.

In your system of Justice can another person actually serve the sentence of a guilty party? How many mothers or fathers would be in prison instead of their own children right now?

What about Satan?

If Christ had not taken the consequences of sin on our behalf then none of us could have passed over when God pours out His wrath at the end of days. If all of us had to pay the wages of sin, then the death that we only taste now, would have been permanent and without hope of escape.

It seems to that the love of God has been poured out by dealing justice on sin and keeping His word.

You're attributing value to sin. When the value is in life. Establishing the value of life. The right to Eternal life. The value of Eternal life.

What secures our future? His endless life?

Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

His work in conformity. His work in Empathy. His work in our lack.

 

[GeneZ]

No over and over God says it was love, not once justice. Your justice argument is no different than the Calvinist sovereignty argument. It comes from the exact same point of view. It’s a blind spot with you for some reason that you cannot or will not see it.

Was not the demands of the Cross God's Justice being satisfied?

 

[GeneZ]

He didn’t torture Himself read the Bible . The Jews and Roman’s did

But He made not a sound like a lamb is silent before his shearers.

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to
the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth." Isaiah 53:7

He only began to scream out in agony when our sins were being poured on Him. "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me!!"

Being cut off from God was the Most horrible torture for Him.
He endured the torture of men easily in comparison.

 

[praise_yeshua]

But He made not a sound like a lamb is silent before his shearers.

Christ allowed men have their way with Him. He didn't cry out in agony in attempt to obtain mercy. Notice the OPTION Christ had...

Mat 26:53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to
the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth."

Isaiah 53:7

Luke appeals to this in the book of Acts. He quotes the Greek OT. You need to read the Greek OT narrative.

Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

Just pay attention the use the various Hebrew words relative to sheep. You will find your answer to the superiority of the Greek OT.

He only began to scream out in agony when our sins were being poured on Him. "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me!!"

Being cut off from God was the Most horrible torture for Him.
He endured the torture of men easily in comparison.

He wasn't cut off from God. He was dying. He was experiencing our death. He was nor cut off from God than when we, as Christians, are cut off from God.

Christ wasn't forsaken by God. God was pleased with His Son.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Was not the demands of the Cross God's Justice being satisfied?

Why did Jesus just show up one day to die? The way you "build" this narrative all that was required in the Atonement was for Jesus to meet the demands of "justice".

Jesus could have just showed up the day of the Atonement and been offered to meet "YOUR" requirement.

 

[GeneZ]

He wasn't cut off from God. He was dying. He was experiencing our death. He was nor cut off from God than when we, as Christians, are cut off from God.

Christ wasn't forsaken by God. God was pleased with His Son.

You do not understand the "death" he experienced if you believe it was only physical death.

 

[civic]

Yes. Do you have children? Do you kill them when they commit sin because of your sense of justice?

Sin is really more than just disobedience. Adam caused our deaths but the sin that damns is more than just disobedience. That sin requires more than just the disobedience of Adam. It is unbelief. Denying the word of God demanding faith. Faith pleases God.

I ask that you think a little about what I just wrote. I don't believe your theology has ever really embraced this. Adam didn't damn his children to destruction.



Correct. He did. Which should tell you that what you're saying isn't accurate. If you've ever loved your own, you know that justice doesn't forgive. If sin requires death then justice demands death.

In your system of Justice can another person actually serve the sentence of a guilty party? How many mothers or fathers would be in prison instead of their own children right now?

What about Satan?



You're attributing value to sin. When the value is in life. Establishing the value of life. The right to Eternal life. The value of Eternal life.

What secures our future? His endless life?

Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

His work in conformity. His work in Empathy. His work in our lack.

Excellent

 

[civic]

Christ allowed men have their way with Him. He didn't cry out in agony in attempt to obtain mercy. Notice the OPTION Christ had...

Mat 26:53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?



Luke appeals to this in the book of Acts. He quotes the Greek OT. You need to read the Greek OT narrative.

Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

Just pay attention the use the various Hebrew words relative to sheep. You will find your answer to the superiority of the Greek OT.



He wasn't cut off from God. He was dying. He was experiencing our death. He was nor cut off from God than when we, as Christians, are cut off from God.

Christ wasn't forsaken by God. God was pleased with His Son.

Amen

 

[GeneZ]

Yes. Do you have children? Do you kill them when they commit sin because of your sense of justice?

Get back on the right page sir. Don't compare yourself, a mere person. with God.