Transmitting The Fallen Nature

[sawdust]

Peter made it really clear.
2Pe 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Our timing isn't God's timing. You're judging God by our limits.



I still don't. You're trying to "have your cake and eat it too".




You need to establish this.



Correct. Your problem. Not mine.



We still die. All you ancestors are dead. So are mine.



Nonsense. We lack the Spirit of God when we are born of the seed of Adam and Eve. Just like Adam did. Eve was taken from Adam.



We are born from above because that is one step in the process of conforming us to the image of Jesus Christ.

Sorry, I hit the wrong button before I finished my response. Working on a small tablet at the moment and it's a tad frustrating.

Where does it say Adam had the Spirit of God pre-fall? Adam walked face to face with the Lord Jesus Christ, he had no need to be led of the Spirit. Believers in the OT were only given the Spirit of God to fulfill their respective ministry be it prophet, king etc. but all believers need to have a human spirit if they wish to discern spiritual matters though. (1Cor.2:14) This is why Jesus told Nicodemus you must be born again. The Spirit is not giving birth to Himself or eternal life but to a human spirit. He gave the comparison, just as flesh gives birth to flesh, the Spirit gives birth to spirit, our spirit. The thing we get from Adam's seed is our flesh in which the sin nature resides. Adam does not generate our soul or spirit, never has even if he had never sinned he still would only produce our flesh.
Being born from above is what makes us spirit, soul and body. Having a human spirit is what gives us the capacity to connect to God and know Him. Any OT believer could know God through the Law but they had to be spiritually alive (born again) to discern His truth otherwise they would be like those whom Christ said we're always hearing but never understanding (Matt.13:13)

 

[GeneZ]

By all means. Prove it. Provide the "literal translation" and the reliable source for such. You're make a false claim.

Remember... its literal meaning confounds those translating it most of the time.
So their conclusions can be speculative.

But, if you want to know if its an accurate literal translation?
Easy!

Google -- "Genesis 2:17—“In dying you shall Die”

Here is one...

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....genesis-217-be-translated-dying-you-shall-die

grace and peace ..........

 

[GeneZ]

You're conflating. You're not dead yet.

Yet, the spiritually dead, unregenerate soul, though physically alive?
Is dead right now though walking and breathing.


Another disciple said to him, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”

But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

Matthew 8:21-22

I've been shown that the spiritually dead can even run and hide and cover themselves with fig leaves.

Imagine that? "Dead." But? Physically alive!

have you even learned a little yet?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Remember... its literal meaning confounds those translating it most of the time.
So their conclusions can be speculative.

But, if you want to know if its an accurate literal translation?
Easy!

Google -- "Genesis 2:17—“In dying you shall Die”

Here is one...

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....genesis-217-be-translated-dying-you-shall-die

grace and peace ..........

So where is your Hebrew source before the 10th century? You're appealing to the MT.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Sorry, I hit the wrong button before I finished my response. Working on a small tablet at the moment and it's a tad frustrating.

I know the feeling. Some of fingers don't work as well as they have in the past. No worries.

Where does it say Adam had the Spirit of God pre-fall? Adam walked face to face with the Lord Jesus Christ, he had no need to be led of the Spirit. Believers in the OT were only given the Spirit of God to fulfill their respective ministry be it prophet, king etc. but all believers need to have a human spirit if they wish to discern spiritual matters though. (1Cor.2:14)

I disagree at many levels. I agree that Adam did not have the Spirit of God prefall. Which means Adam didn't spiritual die.

David said very clearly.... "Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence"...

I'm a former Dispensationalist. I understand the arguments well. I've lost friends over abandoning Dispensationalism.

This is why Jesus told Nicodemus you must be born again. The Spirit is not giving birth to Himself or eternal life but to a human spirit. He gave the comparison, just as flesh gives birth to flesh, the Spirit gives birth to spirit, our spirit. The thing we get from Adam's seed is our flesh in which the sin nature resides. Adam does not generate our soul or spirit, never has even if he had never sinned he still would only produce our flesh.
Being born from above is what makes us spirit, soul and body. Having a human spirit is what gives us the capacity to connect to God and know Him. Any OT believer could know God through the Law but they had to be spiritually alive (born again) to discern His truth otherwise they would be like those whom Christ said we're always hearing but never understanding (Matt.13:13)

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Jesus chided Nicodemus, which meant that , Nicodemus SHOULD HAVE KNOWN... that the new birth preexisted the Incarnation.

Enoch preached Christ as Lord.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

The Gospel was preached to Abraham

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Abraham experienced the new birth...

Rom 2:29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yet, the spiritually dead, unregenerate soul, though physically alive?
Is dead right now though walking and breathing.

Claim without evidence.

Dead people know nothing. Dead people don't talk, walk or breath.

Another disciple said to him, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”

But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

Matthew 8:21-22

I've been shown that the spiritually dead can even run and hide and cover themselves with fig leaves.

Imagine that? "Dead." But? Physically alive!

have you even learned a little yet?

I learned that you like repeating yourself when you get trapped in your own claims.

We are dead in transpasses and sins. However, that death isn't apparent while we are yet alive. It is a targeted judgement.

1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

 

[sawdust]

By all means. Prove it. Provide the "literal translation" and the reliable source for such. You're make a false claim.



I didn't argue for an indefinite period. The message has always been TODAY... relative to a man's choice. Maybe you should consider how the words of God have an extended application.

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Do you see the word AGAIN.....

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.



That which flesh is flesh. That which is spirit is spirit.

Read it for yourself.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.



You're conflating. You're not dead yet.

Like I said earlier I'm on a small tablet and can't work out how to do copy and paste links but if you google "literal translation of Hebrew in Genesis 2:17" you will find many sites saying it literally translates "in dying you shall die".

I'm not sure what you're arguing as you appear to be saying when God speaks to man relative to man's choice it means "the day" except when He said to Adam regarding the choice about the forbidden tree. I'm finding your arguments confusing. Just as well Christ died in the day He carried our sins otherwise, based on your reasoning, He might still be hanging on the Cross.

Cor.15 is referring to the body. I have already pointed this out. The natural body comes first then the spiritual body. It is not talking about our spirit or soul.

You were the one who raised the issue of ancestors but if you want to talk about me, I was dead, dead in my sins but now I am alive. That death wasn't figurative. I had no spirit which is needed to discern spiritual matters. God is spirit. I had no capacity to know Him. If it were not for grace, I would have remained in that state, completely oblivious to any knowledge of spiritual concerns.

 

[GeneZ]

So where is your Hebrew source before the 10th century? You're appealing to the MT.

It has not changed in the Hebrew.

I can not help it if some failed/ refused to address it back then.

The Orthodox rabbi's son I asked saw it in the Hebrew plain as day.

But he did not know what to make of it.

For, it requires 'insight' to explain....

Before you can have insight it requires gaining sufficient amount of accurate teachings from God's Word.

Read what Paul is telling us today...

"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."​

Philippians 1:9

And, I might add. That knowledge Philippians 1:9 mentions, is not simply passages one has memorized.
It is a specific knowledge as revealed in the Greek. It is to be 'epignosis knowledge'. Not simply gnosis (memorization).

The 'epignosis knowledge' as stated in Philippians 1:9, is spiritually alive knowledge. Knowledge that the Holy Spirit has given grace power for understanding, and having life to empower our hearts and minds with!

"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."​

Philippians 1:9

Simple Bible memorization can not instill the power needed for God to give one insight when He so desires.

grace and peace .............

 

[GeneZ]

I learned that you like repeating yourself when you get trapped in your own claims.

I tend to repeat myself to show others reading along how the one being written to keeps not getting it.

 

[GeneZ]

Claim without evidence.

Dead people know nothing. Dead people don't talk, walk or breath.

I think you're dead

(to the truth)...

 

[sawdust]

@praise_yeshua

I'm scratching my head a bit at some of your responses so could I please ask a clarification first. In the following scripture, what do think it is speaking of? Human spirit, soul and body or God's Spirit, human soul and body?

1Thess.5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely and may your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@praise_yeshua

I'm scratching my head a bit at some of your responses so could I please ask a clarification first. In the following scripture, what do think it is speaking of? Human spirit, soul and body or God's Spirit, human soul and body?

1Thess.5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely and may your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What Paul talking of Adam here?

Paul is addressing born again individuals. I'm simply stating that Adam didn't lose spiritual life in the garden. He never had it to begin with. He was a living soul.

Adam was just part of the process. Did Jesus fellowship with sinful men? Did sinful men "handle" God Incarnate?

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

 

[praise_yeshua]

I tend to repeat myself to show others reading along how the one being written to keeps not getting it.

Okay. At least you're talking to me now...

 

[praise_yeshua]

I think you're dead

(to the truth)...

God thing your determination doesn't establish reality.

Remember when I told you that we can be just like God in our imaginations? Here is one those times.

Religions tend to do this.

 

[GeneZ]

God thing your determination doesn't establish reality.

Remember when I told you that we can be just like God in our imaginations? Here is one those times.

Religions tend to do this.

Yes, they do tend to do that, sir.

But, not you!!!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Like I said earlier I'm on a small tablet and can't work out how to do copy and paste links but if you google "literal translation of Hebrew in Genesis 2:17" you will find many sites saying it literally translates "in dying you shall die".

I'm not sure what you're arguing as you appear to be saying when God speaks to man relative to man's choice it means "the day" except when He said to Adam regarding the choice about the forbidden tree. I'm finding your arguments confusing. Just as well Christ died in the day He carried our sins otherwise, based on your reasoning, He might still be hanging on the Cross.

Cor.15 is referring to the body. I have already pointed this out. The natural body comes first then the spiritual body. It is not talking about our spirit or soul.

You were the one who raised the issue of ancestors but if you want to talk about me, I was dead, dead in my sins but now I am alive. That death wasn't figurative. I had no spirit which is needed to discern spiritual matters. God is spirit. I had no capacity to know Him. If it were not for grace, I would have remained in that state, completely oblivious to any knowledge of spiritual concerns.

God's plans for man began before man was created. Adam was just the beginning. You believe in an reactionary Atonement. That is okay. I reject such.

As far as God's plans are concerned, you can apply the longsuffering of God to God's purpose to create the "new creature" before Adam was every created. Adam was not that creature. He was just the beginning.

I've said this for years and I believe it to be true. It was essential that the actions God took in creation unfolded the way they did. It was the only possible way to create a "willing servant" in humanity.

How many do you have willing cooperating with you? Mankind is fickle. We don't care about much of anything unless we have some "skin in the game". It is impossible for us to understand God without our experiences in this life.

Everyone seems to believe that God is just going to "gift" man with enlightenment to "know all things"... but that only gets you so far. It does not instill in man the needed intent to willingingly participate.

 

[GeneZ]

God's plans for man began before man was created. Adam was just the beginning. You believe in an reactionary Atonement. That is okay. I reject such.

Do you realize the silly irony of how you worded that?

God always knew all things. He does not plan.

Yet, you said He did have plans.
Then you accused me of believing in a reactionary atonement?

We are for the sake of communication to use language of accommodation, because we still communicate as earthlings.
So don't try to gain yourself brownie points in what you just tried to pass off.

If you want to get into a technically correct discussion? It must be requested as such when it comes to the issue you brought up.

And, besides. God always knew you would try that ploy.
And, planned for me to say what I did in return.

 

[GeneZ]

@praise_yeshua

I'm scratching my head a bit at some of your responses so could I please ask a clarification first. In the following scripture, what do think it is speaking of? Human spirit, soul and body or God's Spirit, human soul and body?

1Thess.5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely and may your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Thess.5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely and may your whole spirit, soul and body
be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit needs not to be sanctified. Nor, can the Holy Spirit be anything but blameless. Its our human spirit, our soul, and body that requires sanctification by means of gaining more and more knowledge and understanding of sound doctrinal teachings.

False doctrines taint and corrupt, not sanctify, our whole being.

grace and peace .............

 

[sawdust]

God's plans for man began before man was created. Adam was just the beginning. You believe in an reactionary Atonement. That is okay. I reject such.

As far as God's plans are concerned, you can apply the longsuffering of God to God's purpose to create the "new creature" before Adam was every created. Adam was not that creature. He was just the beginning.

I've said this for years and I believe it to be true. It was essential that the actions God took in creation unfolded the way they did. It was the only possible way to create a "willing servant" in humanity.

How many do you have willing cooperating with you? Mankind is fickle. We don't care about much of anything unless we have some "skin in the game". It is impossible for us to understand God without our experiences in this life.

Everyone seems to believe that God is just going to "gift" man with enlightenment to "know all things"... but that only gets you so far. It does not instill in man the needed intent to willingingly participate.

I don't even know what a reactionary atonement is to say whether I believe in it.

I don't agree with some of what you have said here, but I do agree with you that Adam was not that "new creature". If any man be in Christ he is a never before seen new creature (2Cor.5:17) but that doesn't alter what we are and how we function as human beings on this planet. Just as a 2yo is no different to a 10yo in respect to being a human being, yet how we deal with those two age groups are different.

Most probably best we leave the conversation at this point or we might end up confusing each other. We appear to have more differences than things in common with respect to how man functions.

 

[sawdust]

1Thess.5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely and may your whole spirit, soul and body
be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit needs not to be sanctified. Nor, can the Holy Spirit be anything but blameless. Its our human spirit, our soul, and body that requires sanctification by means of gaining more and more knowledge and understanding of sound doctrinal teachings.

False doctrines taint and corrupt, not sanctify, our whole being.

grace and peace .............

That is certainly how I read it. As far as I am concerned it is because we are spiritually dead (ie.no human spirit) that we have to be born again in order to enter and comprehend God's Kingdom. How could Adam have related to God in the garden if he had no human spirit? It's our spirit that gives us the capacity to translate the natural into the spiritual. It's why Christ spoke in parables to sort the wheat (born again) from the chaff (spiritually dead). Of course, I'm not denying the work of the Holy Spirit in this process or the grace of God, but without a human spirit the word effectively falls on deaf ears.