Transmitting The Fallen Nature

civic said:
adam was representative of every man. All would of fallen to the same temptation. The unregenerate man is no match for the evil one.

and the proof is that you still sin even with the Holy Spirit dwelling in you. so the proof is all have sinned. there was only One who was sinless who is the same One who defeated sin, death and the devil on the cross.
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If Adam was representative of every man then he must have also represented Christ or how else could Jesus be the last Adam? If Adam didn't represent Christ then how could Christ represent us?

Why would God create an unregenerate man? Having a human spirit is essential to discerning spiritual matters. Adam could not have been a part of God's kingdom unless he was created with a spiritual life.

You are saying Adam came directly from God's hand imperfect and incomplete. Either Adam was created as Christ was born, complete in every way God intended man to be complete on earth, or there is a problem. You have two different humanities.
 
sawdust said:
If Adam was representative of every man then he must have also represented Christ or how else could Jesus be the last Adam? If Adam didn't represent Christ then how could Christ represent us?

Why would God create an unregenerate man? Having a human spirit is essential to discerning spiritual matters. Adam could not have been a part of God's kingdom unless he was created with a spiritual life.

You are saying Adam came directly from God's hand imperfect and incomplete. Either Adam was created as Christ was born, complete in every way God intended man to be complete on earth, or there is a problem. You have two different humanities.
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Adam didn’t represent Christ it’s the opposite. He became man to do what Adam was incapable of doing. In theology we call this Impeccability. Adam was peccable. God is impeccable. Jesus Person is Divine, not human which is the heresy known as nestorianism.
 
GeneZ said:
His humanity is His SOUL. You see a body as humanity? Was Adam's body humanity prior to the Lord breathing the breath of lives into the body's nostrils! NO! It was just a body!

Mary was used of God to provide a BODY.
Not, to provide his humanity, which is His Soul!

LOOK!

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:​
​
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,​
But a body You have prepared for Me." Hebrews 10:5​

It says what? When he "came into the world." Meaning?
He was someplace else prior to coming into the world.

The body was to be the tabernacle for His Soul. His soul which was in Heaven prior to the incarnation.

Please.. LOOK! The Lord Jehovah of Israel was a union of Soul and Deity!
Prior to the Incarnation there was no body. Just Deity and Soul in union!

Look again!
And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​
so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16​
​
Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, ​
and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​
​
​
“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, ​
the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred ​
meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble ​
to Me, I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14​
​

That soul of Jehovah entered the sinless body that God provided by means of Mary's ovum! Genesis 3:15!

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,​
But a body You have prepared for Me." ​


Prepared what? A body, not yet a living man. Only a body.

God's soul entered the body provided through Mary, like when the Lord breathed into the nostrils of the body of Adam!

Think it over. Don't make a snap decision. This is deep!

grace and peace.....
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'And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.'

Hello @GeneZ,

The soul is the whole person energised by the breath of life (i.e., spirit). When the verses you have quoted refer to the soul of God Himself, it is His being that is referred to, not some separate entity. His whole being.

When the Lord Jesus Christ was born He became a living soul. When He died it was His spirit (i.e., breath of life) that He commended to the Father (Luke 23:46). That is the part of man that is of God and therefore returns to Him again. It was His spirit (i.e.,breath of life) that returned to Him, when He was quickened into life again, at the resurrection from the dead.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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'Behold, all souls are Mine;
as the soul of the father,
so also the soul of the son is Mine:
the soul (i.e.,the man or whole person) that sinneth, it shall die.'
..'But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
.... And hath not eaten upon the mountains,
...... neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
........ neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife,
.......... neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
............ And hath not oppressed any,
.............. but hath restored to the debtor his pledge,
................ hath spoiled none by violence,
.................. hath given his bread to the hungry,
.................... and hath covered the naked with a garment;
He that hath not given forth upon usury,
.. neither hath taken any increase,
.... that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity,
...... hath executed true judgment between man and man,
........ Hath walked in My statutes, and hath kept My judgments, to deal truly;
.......... he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.'
(Eze 18:4-9)

* The 'man' (or ,'soul') who sins shall die, and as all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, then all will die. It is only the power of the resurrection that can deliver man from the grave. Man does not have an immortal soul.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Complete said:
'Behold, all souls are Mine;
as the soul of the father,
so also the soul of the son is Mine:
the soul (i.e.,the man or whole person) that sinneth, it shall die.'
..'But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
.... And hath not eaten upon the mountains,
...... neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
........ neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife,
.......... neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
............ And hath not oppressed any,
.............. but hath restored to the debtor his pledge,
................ hath spoiled none by violence,
.................. hath given his bread to the hungry,
.................... and hath covered the naked with a garment;
He that hath not given forth upon usury,
.. neither hath taken any increase,
.... that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity,
...... hath executed true judgment between man and man,
........ Hath walked in My statutes, and hath kept My judgments, to deal truly;
.......... he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.'
(Eze 18:4-9)

* The 'man' (or ,'soul') who sins shall die, and as all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, then all will die. It is only the power of the resurrection that can deliver man from the grave. Man does not have an immortal soul.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Amen and notice who shall not die.

'But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
.... And hath not eaten upon the mountains,
...... neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
........ neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife,
.......... neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
............ And hath not oppressed any,
.............. but hath restored to the debtor his pledge,
................ hath spoiled none by violence,
.................. hath given his bread to the hungry,
.................... and hath covered the naked with a garment;
He that hath not given forth upon usury,
.. neither hath taken any increase,
.... that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity,
...... hath executed true judgment between man and man,
........ Hath walked in My statutes, and hath kept My judgments, to deal truly;
.......... he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord
 
civic said:
Adam didn’t represent Christ it’s the opposite. He became man to do what Adam was incapable of doing. In theology we call this Impeccability. Adam was peccable. God is impeccable. Jesus Person is Divine, not human which is the heresy known as Nestorianism.
Click to expand...
Hello @civic,

You say that (quote) 'Jesus Person is Divine, not human.' Yet surely He was both: Human and Divine. He had to take human form in order to redeem. Perhaps you would like to explain what you mean.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
sawdust said:
manifests the love of God will not compromise with sin
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First, there is no absence of time. Eternity is the endless measure of time. Don't believe C.S. Lewis.

Is that how you treat your own? Damn them if they sin?

Your theology is extraordinarily self serving and absent any sense of empathy. There was MORE to what God was doing than just establishing a means whereby he would DAMN His own offspring.

You do realize that God can do anything. He can have ANYTHING He wants. Anything.
 
Complete said:
Hi @praise_yeshua,

Was it not poured out upon the cross? For He became flesh and bone.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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It was poured out on the cross. It ran onto the ground. I personally believe the blood ran out onto the very spot of dirt that man was taken from. The death of His life in His own blood perishing for mankind.

The life of the flesh in the blood. It is an appeal to God's life being given for us. Not just temporally but Eternally.
 
Complete said:
Hello @civic,

You say that (quote) 'Jesus Person is Divine, not human.' Yet surely He was both: Human and Divine. He had to take human form in order to redeem. Perhaps you would like to explain what you mean.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Click to expand...

@civic is more than capable of answering this. I don't know the times we've debated this. More than I can remember.

If you will focus upon the power of God in Divinity, you will understand how "the weakness of God" is STRONGER....

1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

2Co 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

Christ never lost His power. It was hidden. It was robbed in humanity. Covered. Much like when Moses was shield with the Christophany on the mount. We beheld His glory.

Those that seek God...... find it.
 
Complete said:
Hello @civic,

You say that (quote) 'Jesus Person is Divine, not human.' Yet surely He was both: Human and Divine. He had to take human form in order to redeem. Perhaps you would like to explain what you mean.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Click to expand...
I wrote this several years ago on CARM when I was debating Unitarians and Modalists. This is the historical position of the church through its creeds and the orthodox position concerning the 2 natures in Christ.



Hypostatic Union

1. Jesus is a person. (1 Tim 2:5)

2. Jesus, the Person, has two natures- Divine and human (John 1:1, 14, 1 Timothy 3:16): Divine and human. This is the Hypostatic Union.( Col 2:9, Heb 1:3,2:16)

3. The Communicatio Idiomatum (Communication of the Properties) states that the attributes of His Divine nature and human nature are both ascribed to the one Person of Jesus. So Jesus can exhibit attributes of Divinity (Omnipresence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, . John 2:23, 3:13, 8:58, He was prayed to in Acts 7:59, John 14:13, He was is worshiped Matt 2:2:11, Rev 5:13-14) and at the same time exhibit attributes of His humanity( He was tempted, ate, prayed,wept, grew in wisdom and stature,was anointed,was baptized, the Father was greater, didn’t know the day or the hour of His Return, He cried My God my God why has Thou forsaken Me, He died etc.). The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that any part of the Divine nature was communicated to the human nature.


4. The Man(anthropos) Jesus is what we perceive (if we were there 2000 years ago in Israel) and through the Man we encounter the Divine nature (Jesus knowing all things, is on earth while in heaven, answers prayer, forgiving sins, etc.).

5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)

6. The Divine Nature is within the Trinity.(Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

7. Since the Person of Jesus claims the attributes of Divinity(John 3:13,8:58,Matthew 9:2,12:8), then the Person of Jesus is a member of the Trinity.( John 14-16, Math 28:19)

Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross. The term "hypostatic union" refers to the two natures united in the one Person, so anything said of those two natures in the one Person applies to the whole Person. So we see that the Person of Christ is both God and man. The phrase hypostatic union was adopted by the general council at Chalcedon 451 AD. That council declared that the union of two natures is real (against Arius), not a mere indwelling of God in a man (against Nestorius), with a rational soul (against Apollinaris), and that in Christ’s Divine nature remains unchanged (against Eutyches).

We need to look to the Monothelite Controversy which had to deal with whether there was one or two wills/minds in the person of Christ. The outcome was that there were two; one human and one divine with the human subjected to the divine. The eternal Son of God did not assume a part of a human nature without a mind, without a will, without human activity, but He assumed all the things that were planted in our nature by God.

Now then, to act (or in this case, speak) is the work of a person, but the form or nature is the cause of this action; for each person acts in accord with the form or nature which it has. A difference in causes (natures) produces a difference in effects (actions). Therefore, where there are different natures, there are also different activities. So in the one Person of Christ there are two natural actions, the divine and the human, each of which has its own essential attributes, functions, and actions. Jesus was thirty years old according to His human nature (Luke 3:23); according to His divine nature He could say: "Before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58). The question is did both natures know this and communicate it to the Person. The answer is yes because the divine nature with its corresponding divine will willed the human nature to respond in such a fashion in keeping with Christ's office and ministry. In the text regarding Mark 13:32, we have a slightly different situation here. Christ is acting (speaking) from His human nature, but, this time, the divine will does not allow the human will access to this knowledge. For this information is not to be published on earth. Therefore, as man, Christ cannot answer the question.

In the works pertaining to the office of Christ as Prophet, Priest, and King both natures act in conjunction with each other, each nature doing what is peculiar to the same.
 
praise_yeshua said:
@civic is more than capable of answering this. I don't know the times we've debated this. More than I can remember.

If you will focus upon the power of God in Divinity, you will understand how "the weakness of God" is STRONGER....

1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

2Co 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

Christ never lost His power. It was hidden. It was robbed in humanity. Covered. Much like when Moses was shield with the Christophany on the mount. We beheld His glory.

Those that seek God...... find it.
Click to expand...
Exactly it was intentionally veiled. Peter, James and John were able to see it unbelief in all His glory at the Transfiguration. When John said we beheld His Glory that is what he was speaking about. Peter attests to that event in his epistle too. And like you said we have discussed this on the old forum together 100’s of not 1000’s of times.
 
civic said:
Amen and notice who shall not die.

'But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
.... And hath not eaten upon the mountains,
...... neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
........ neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife,
.......... neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
............ And hath not oppressed any,
.............. but hath restored to the debtor his pledge,
................ hath spoiled none by violence,
.................. hath given his bread to the hungry,
.................... and hath covered the naked with a garment;
He that hath not given forth upon usury,
.. neither hath taken any increase,
.... that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity,
...... hath executed true judgment between man and man,
........ Hath walked in My statutes, and hath kept My judgments, to deal truly;
.......... he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord
Click to expand...
@civic said:- 'Amen and notice who shall not die.'
Click to expand...
'And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die.
Believest thou this?'
(Joh.11:26)

Hello @civic,

What strikes me, is that it does not say that he will not die, but that 'he shall surely live.' For all will die, and all will be resurrected, but not all will live. The only ones who will not die, are those who are, 'alive and remain,' at the coming of the Lord at the event recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4. They are the ones referred to by the Lord in John 11:26 (above) I believe.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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@civic said:-
The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)
Click to expand...

Praise God!
 
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