Total Depravity

[The Rogue Tomato]

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Has mankind changed since then? How would that be possible?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Has mankind changed since then? How would that be possible?

So you're moving total depravity away from Adam? Good.

Did they die? All of them dead......... except for Noah and his descendants....

How much better circumstances are you expecting than the righteous continuing mankind?

 

[Jeff]

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Has mankind changed since then? How would that be possible?

Well lets not leave out Hall of Fame of Faith. The readers of Hebrews are encouraged to imitate the faith of these men and women of the past.

 

[Jeff]

And that one member of the Hall of Faith good old Enoch, the man who walked with God. Enoch so pleased the Lord God that he was spared the experience of death.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

And that one member of the Hall of Faith good old Enoch, the man who walked with God. Enoch so pleased the Lord God that he was spared the experience of death.

An exception leaves my question unanswered, though.

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Has mankind changed since then? How would that be possible?

 

[Jeff]

An exception leaves my question unanswered, though.

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Has mankind changed since then? How would that be possible?

Yes, the Bible does indicate that as the time for Christ’s return approaches, evil and social chaos may well intensify. The Bible says that “evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived” 2 Timothy 3:13

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, the Bible does indicate that as the time for Christ’s return approaches, evil and social chaos may well intensify. The Bible says that “evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived” 2 Timothy 3:13

This is also one of those circumstances where those who typically believe "all" doesn't really mean "all" without distinction....

is actually......applying all without distinction.

 

[Jeff]

This is also one of those circumstances where those who typically believe "all" doesn't really mean "all" without distinction....

is actually......applying all without distinction.

I understand, it's a distraction trying to show that if you're not one of the "elect" then men, women, boys, and girls are not only undeserving, but actually worthy of the eternal wrath of God.

So if you're NOT worthy to be on the calvinist bus God kicks you to the curb.

Men, women, boys, and girls are so lost in sin, so in love with the world, so dismissive of all things holy and righteous that they are simply unwilling and unable to come to Christ for salvation on their own R.C. Sproul

The good news is the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true and more powerful than any man-made theology that says in order to be saved you must be like us.

Jesus said: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32

Who you going to believe john Calvin or Jesus Christ?

I'll go with Jesus, he's the way the truth and the life.

 

[Rockson]

An exception leaves my question unanswered, though.

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Has mankind changed since then? How would that be possible?

You're forgetting though where that scripture is. Gen 6. It does matter. It doesn't mean from the time of Adam until the time of God telling Noah to build the ark it was always like this. There are some cultures IN TIME where levels of depravity are not always the same. Proof of this. 2 Tim 3: 1 states that in the last days perilous times WILL COME and it goes off to mention the level of depravity that will be prevalent IN THE LAST DAYS. Sure men always needed to be saved but as a culture depravity levels weren't always consistent.

One of those last day things is that men won't (by in large) be lovers of God. Doesn't mean in other culture and times they weren't at all.

 

[TibiasDad]

So you're moving total depravity away from Adam?

I don’t think there is a move away from Adam, per se, but rather an extension from Adam to show the extent of man’s depravity at a relatively short period of time after Adam.

Sin’s control over man is demonstrated in Cain, Adam and Eve’s firstborn example of humanity after the fall, who commits the first murder and demonstrates his selfishness in not giving the “fat parts” of his crop as a sacrifice to God.


Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don’t think there is a move away from Adam, per se, but rather an extension from Adam to show the extent of man’s depravity at a relatively short period of time after Adam.

Sin’s control over man is demonstrated in Cain, Adam and Eve’s firstborn example of humanity after the fall, who commits the first murder and demonstrates his selfishness in not giving the “fat parts” of his crop as a sacrifice to God.


Doug

You think wrong. There is no reason to "think". Just read and believe what it says.

Gen 6:5 But the LORD saw that the wickedness of humankind had become great on the earth. Every inclination of the thoughts of their minds was only evil all the time.

Notice that little phrase "had become". Sin was progressive. It has always been progressive.

Abel didn't sin. You're being like Satan. Do you even realize that you're being like Satan? Satan is an accuser. Satan couldn't accuse Abel. Satan couldn't accuse Seth nor Enoch.

I believe all men eventually sin but we are different now than before the flood. Man has so sinned against his own body that our lives are nothing more than a "vapor" that appears for a little while and vanishes away. We are often nothing more than breeding grounds for new diseases and autism. All of humanity has become weaker and weaker throughout history.

Your religion isn't worth believing.

 

[TibiasDad]

Notice that little phrase "had become". Sin was progressive. It has always been progressive.

What do you think “an extension from Adam to show the extent of man’s depravity at a relatively short period of time after Adam” means?

Abel didn't sin.

“All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” You’re making an argument from silence; which is a logical fallacy.

I believe all men eventually sin

Yes we all will sin.

but we are different now than before the flood.

There is nothing to evidence this assertion and Gen 6:5 outright denies it to be true.


Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

What do you think “an extension from Adam to show the extent of man’s depravity at a relatively short period of time after Adam” means?

Geesh. What I believe is clear and you have no idea how long it was. Neither do I. So you stop this "short time" nonsense.

“All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” You’re making an argument from silence; which is a logical fallacy.

Yes we all will sin.

No I'm not. All have sinned is set in time. There is context to "have sinned". You're over simplifying this to include everyone. You're making an argument from silence by claiming that Able, Seth and Enoch sinned. Prove it.

There is nothing to evidence this assertion and Gen 6:5 outright denies it to be true.


Doug

You're making false claims against God's children. You need to be judged for such among the faithful. You've claimed that Abel, Seth and Enoch have sinned without proof otherwise. You're sinning yourself. You're a false accuser.

 

[Studyman]

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Has mankind changed since then? How would that be possible?

Wasn't Eve also part of mankind? Is it not true that according to what is written, "every intent of the thoughts of Eve's heart was only evil continually"?
What is man without a thought? A pile of blood and bones that can neither choose or do good, nor choose or do evil, Yes?

To preach that God created mankind without the capacity to discern, and then rule over their own thoughts, and choose the good over the evil is contrary to Scriptures in every way.

We have the armor of God, and the escape He created for every temptation. If we don't "put on the Armor" or "Seek the Escape" HE says exists, then "WE" are responsible for our sins, not God or satan.

Did God provide an escape for Eve? Only a fool would suggest HE didn't.

2 Cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

 

[Frank]

Fallen man still bears the image of God, 1 Corinthians 11:7 tells us that. Since we still bear God's image total depravity is a fallacy. In the Garden, man became sinful; our DNA was effectively infected with sin, but we did not become depraved.

Sin is what we are and what we do before becoming a Christian. Now we are the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ.

Depravity is something one moves into or becomes. It is a state beyond sin. But we are not naturally depraved, or the Bible would have told us so.

 

[praise_yeshua]

There is nothing to evidence this assertion and Gen 6:5 outright denies it to be true.
Doug

Adam and his descendants lived for hundreds of years before the flood.

How are you enjoying the last years of your meager life here on this earth? I'm suffering from my sins and the sins of others long before me. My brother is an epileptic. My mother died far too young from a heart deflect caused by the "fever" of her generation. That generation has caused the need for countless heart operations, artificial hearts, and etc throughout our history.

You have a rather shallow understanding of cause and effect. How about processed foods being sold the solution as to lasting hunger in this life creating endless causes of diabetics?

Feel free to elaborate.....

I bust your silly notions of Total Depravity and I become your enemy. There really isn't much of a difference between Calvinism and Arminianism. Just people trying to hold on to their idols.

 

[atpollard]

Since we still bear God's image total depravity is a fallacy. In the Garden, man became sinful; our DNA was effectively infected with sin, but we did not become depraved.

Do me a favor and look up the definition of Total Depravity on Calvinist source ... it means that EVERY PART of man was tainted by sin (not all men became sociopaths). The meaning of the word "Depravity" has drifted a bit since the 1500's when Shakespeare was writing plays and it was first applied to the Doctrines of Grace. (Like when the KJV bible says "God makes peace and EVIL" ... the meaning of "evil" has changed since that was first written).

 

[TibiasDad]

Geesh. What I believe is clear and you have no idea how long it was. Neither do I. So you stop this "short time" nonsense.

I said a relatively short time…nice try, but no cigar.

No I'm not. All have sinned is set in time. There is context to "have sinned". You're over simplifying this to include everyone. You're making an argument from silence by claiming that Able, Seth and Enoch sinned. Prove it.

Does Romans say “all, except Able, Seth and Enoch, have sinned”?

You're making false claims against God's children. You need to be judged for such among the faithful. You've claimed that Abel, Seth and Enoch have sinned without proof otherwise. You're sinning yourself. You're a false accuser.

So this is what disagreeing with you means? I guess everyone but you is doomed. I’m going to the garden to eat worms.

Doug

 

[Frank]

No problem I'm on it. I'll start with this just to get warmed up.

Calvinism would say that “total depravity” means we are so fallen that all we can do is choose to sin, that we can’t even want God or think about God or believe in God unless He causes us to do it (and He will only do this for the elect, but everyone else is out of luck). But biblically, it’s as you say, “depravity arises from things people do or believe.” If Calvinism is true that fallen man is “totally depraved,” why would God need to clarify that certain behaviors are “depraved”? Wouldn’t ALL behaviors/beliefs of “totally depraved” people be “depraved”? Why single out only some? If Calvinism is true, there is no need for those verses you referred to because those sinful behaviors would be no more or less depraved than any other sin, because “totally depraved” is “TOTALLY depraved”. There aren’t levels to it, and you can’t get more depraved than “totally.”

 

[atpollard]

Depravity ... from deprave

deprave (verb)​

transitive verb
1 (archaic) : to speak ill of : malign
2 : to make bad : corrupt : to corrupt morally

Etymology
Middle English, from Anglo-French depraver, from Latin depravare to pervert*, from de- + pravus crooked, bad
* to pervert (verb): to cause to turn aside or away from what is good or true or morally right

**********

"depravity" is that which makes one "crooked" or "causes one to turn aside or away from what is good or true or morally right"
"Total Depravity" is the state of having all parts (thoughts, flesh, will) corrupted by sin and "turned away" from what is "good or true or morally right"

as in Romans 3:10-12 [NKJV]
As it is written:
"There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."