Righteousness by nature

So, the "measure of Faith" that everyone has, allows all to make choices regarding what we trust and believe.
That is not what Paul is talking about when he says “a measure of faith”! We must be very careful when we take a biblical phrase or term and use it to explain something very different from the original usage.
That is how “cult thinking” starts! ( And no, I am not saying your thinking is cultish; I am only cautioning you about what I perceive your thinking is potentially moving toward when you do what I think you are doing.)

Doug
 
Careful, my brother; one might accuse you of doing the same thing!

You're right. It could. We can talk about it... :)

That’s interesting, Jesus said the narrow way leads to life and the broad way leads to destruction!


Doug

You sound like a Calvinist now. :sneaky:

I've built and designed elaborate systems for many many years now. I know what it is to get something wrong that fundamentally affects operations of these systems. Introducing flaws at specific fundamental branches of thought/actions can greatly affect the potential of most anything. Maybe I have a unique perspective. I decided a long time that instead of endless reviewing the works/commentaries of others (which I did for a long time) I would build what I believe from the "ground up". That is what I have endeavored to do.

As always, we can discuss.
 
That is the old Arminian belief held by Dr Olsen

Ben Witherington and Roger Olson, “Roger Olson’s Arminian Theology – Part 14”​

January 25, 2017 , Martin Glynn , Comments Offon Ben Witherington and Roger Olson, “Roger Olson’s Arminian Theology – Part 14”

BEN: It seems reasonably clear that Arminius took the Calvinistic view that regeneration precedes conversion. I suppose it depends on what one means by regeneration— the ability to repent? In any case, various later Arminians associated regeneration with the new birth or conversion, perhaps as a part of conversion itself. What is your view of what a proper Arminian theology should say on this subject?

ROGER: I have posited a “partial regeneration” in the reception of prevenient grace. But full regeneration, the “expulsive power of a new affection,” is a special work of the Holy Spirit antecedent upon (though chronologically simultaneous with) repentance and faith.

BEN: Let’s reflect for a moment on the Acts accounts of Paul’s conversion (Acts 9,22,26). It would appear on the surface that the vision of Christ over-powers Saul and makes him an offer he can’t refuse. I suppose we could say thereafter he could respond positively or negatively to the call to be baptized and take up his calling, but still the conversion itself seems to be monergistic. How would you explain those passages?

ROGER: I don’t think it was monergistic. I think God wanted Paul for his service so much that he exercised unusual intervening, persuasive power. But I believe Paul could very well have refused and gone on his way to kill Christians in Damascus.

[Link to original post on Ben Witherington’s blog]

Posted in Acts 9:10-19, Arminian Heritage, Arminianism, Arminius, Conversion, Faith, Free Will, Gospel Offer, Grace, Monergism, Olson, Roger, Ordo Salutis, Prevenient Grace, Regeneration, Synergism, Witherington, Ben III.
 

Ben Witherington and Roger Olson, “Roger Olson’s Arminian Theology – Part 14”​

January 25, 2017 , Martin Glynn , Comments Offon Ben Witherington and Roger Olson, “Roger Olson’s Arminian Theology – Part 14”

BEN: It seems reasonably clear that Arminius took the Calvinistic view that regeneration precedes conversion. I suppose it depends on what one means by regeneration— the ability to repent? In any case, various later Arminians associated regeneration with the new birth or conversion, perhaps as a part of conversion itself. What is your view of what a proper Arminian theology should say on this subject?

ROGER: I have posited a “partial regeneration” in the reception of prevenient grace. But full regeneration, the “expulsive power of a new affection,” is a special work of the Holy Spirit antecedent upon (though chronologically simultaneous with) repentance and faith.

BEN: Let’s reflect for a moment on the Acts accounts of Paul’s conversion (Acts 9,22,26). It would appear on the surface that the vision of Christ over-powers Saul and makes him an offer he can’t refuse. I suppose we could say thereafter he could respond positively or negatively to the call to be baptized and take up his calling, but still the conversion itself seems to be monergistic. How would you explain those passages?

ROGER: I don’t think it was monergistic. I think God wanted Paul for his service so much that he exercised unusual intervening, persuasive power. But I believe Paul could very well have refused and gone on his way to kill Christians in Damascus.

[Link to original post on Ben Witherington’s blog]

Posted in Acts 9:10-19, Arminian Heritage, Arminianism, Arminius, Conversion, Faith, Free Will, Gospel Offer, Grace, Monergism, Olson, Roger, Ordo Salutis, Prevenient Grace, Regeneration, Synergism, Witherington, Ben III.

First, Roger Olsen seems to have claimed that term for himself, which would be several centuries removed from “old” or historic Arminianism.

Secondly, one theologian does not speak for the whole of those who believe in a position, or for the system itself.

I remember the Cals on CARM throwing out the accusation of a partial regeneration as if that were even possible.


Doug
 
First, Roger Olsen seems to have claimed that term for himself, which would be several centuries removed from “old” or historic Arminianism.

Secondly, one theologian does not speak for the whole of those who believe in a position, or for the system itself.

I remember the Cals on CARM throwing out the accusation of a partial regeneration as if that were even possible.


Doug
Of course not the newer preference is to reject the idea of partial regeneration

In this case however they got it from somewhere

Dr. Brian Abasciano just released this article in response to Dr. John Piper’s recent critique of classical Arminians view of “partial pre-faith regeneration” (represented by Dr. Roger Olson) which can be heard here.

Both Drs. Abasciano and Olson represent Arminian theology, though they have a different take on the concept of “partial regeneration,” which Abasciano explains more fully in his article.

Both Olson and Abasciano maintain, however, that God must supply a supernatural grace to the lost, above and beyond the gospel, in order for them to believe the clearly revealed good news sent by God Himself.

Provisionist/Traditionalists, like myself, maintain that the gospel is a sufficient work of supernatural grace to enable whosoever hears it to believe (Rom 10:14; Jn 20:31; 2 Tim 3:15). And that the only reason someone might be in a condition by which they are “ever hearing but not understanding, ever seeing but not perceiving” is due to an individual’s libertarianly free choice to continually reject God’s clearly revealed truth and remain in rebellion (the word “libertarian” simply means they had the moral capacity to choose otherwise). Over time, despite God’s patience and gracious provisions, a sinner’s heart may “grow calloused” or their “consciences become seared” and they may be “given over by God to their defiled minds.” But, despite what both Arminians and Calvinists teach, this is not an innate moral incapacity from birth inherited from Adam due to the Fall (Acts 28:23-28; Jn 12:39-41; Heb 3:15; Rom 1:28; 2:15; 1 Tim 4:2).

Nothing in all of scripture clearly teaches that fallen humanity has lost the innate moral capacity to respond positively to God’s own gracious appeals and provisions to be reconciled from that Fall.

With all due respect to my Arminian friends, I believe their concession to the unfounded Calvinistic doctrine of “Total Inability” has muddled the waters and made an otherwise clear distinction rather difficult to untangle.

I understand that both Calvinists and Arminians desire to be true to the biblical account, but my challenge to them both is to engage with us over the relevant biblical data (without punting to the boogie man fallacy of Pelagianism).

In my experience, the scholars on both sides tend to cite the other as validation for their otherwise unfounded views (i.e. even Arminians agree with us on this point so no need to debate it) and anyone who falls outside the 16th century parameters are piously dismissed by man-made labels also introduced in the 16th century (i.e. semi-Pelagianism).

I will not remain quiet while the gospel of grace is assumed to lack the sufficient grace to accomplish what the scriptures themselves say they were intended to accomplish!

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” (John‬ ‭20:31‬) Soteriology 101
 
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Nothing in all of scripture clearly teaches that fallen humanity has lost the innate moral capacity to respond positively to God’s own gracious appeals and provisions to be reconciled from that Fall.

While in principle I agree with you, the capacity for belief, “to respond positively to God’s own gracious appeals”, is not the same as the right to do so; that God’s gives us the very opportunity to exercise faith is not something within our purview. That opportunity is an act of prevenient grace, God preparing the way ahead of us!

Doug
 
I will not remain quiet while the gospel of grace is assumed to lack the sufficient grace to accomplish what the scriptures themselves say they were intended to accomplish!
I don’t think I or any Arminian adherent asserts any lack of power at all. We need not create enemies to conquer, when we have so many that already exist!


Doug
 
Well, my brother, even in your belief, it is an act of grace that precedes the act of believing what you heard. Thus it is prevenient Grace.

Doug
Does Prevenient Grace have a starting point? If so, when does it start? How can you recognize it one way or another when it starts?
 
Does Prevenient Grace have a starting point? If so, when does it start? How can you recognize it one way or another when it starts?
Any act of God for the benefit of man prior to his salvation is an act of grace that precedes, goes before, the specific moment of saving an individual.

The act of God killing animals to make clothing for Adam and Eve in the garden is an act of prevenient grace. The declaration that the seed of the woman would crush the seed of the serpent was an act of prevenient grace.


Doug
 
Any act of God for the benefit of man prior to his salvation is an act of grace that precedes, goes before, the specific moment of saving an individual.

The act of God killing animals to make clothing for Adam and Eve in the garden is an act of prevenient grace. The declaration that the seed of the woman would crush the seed of the serpent was an act of prevenient grace.


Doug
Being given the gift of life is also an act of Prevenient Grace. That means from the get go Prevenient Grace works on everyone from the moment one is born and does not stop. I would rename it Forever Grace.
 
Being given the gift of life is also an act of Prevenient Grace. That means from the get go Prevenient Grace works on everyone from the moment one is born and does not stop. I would rename it Forever Grace.
I think Grace is only a valid term in response to a moral failure. There is no need of grace prior to sin.

Doug
 
Well, my brother, even in your belief, it is an act of grace that precedes the act of believing what you heard. Thus it is prevenient Grace.

Doug
Yes

Perhaps the words of the article (not my words) came off too strongly. It was only my intention to pass along some information I had seen previously regarding partial regeneration
 
While in principle I agree with you, the capacity for belief, “to respond positively to God’s own gracious appeals”, is not the same as the right to do so; that God’s gives us the very opportunity to exercise faith is not something within our purview. That opportunity is an act of prevenient grace, God preparing the way ahead of us!

Doug
Certainly revelation comes as an act of grace. Inspiring the gospel, sending someone to preach it are matters of grace
 
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