Righteousness by nature

[praise_yeshua]

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

I want to be very clear. I'm not trying in any way to establish that the "law of God" establishes any sense of redeeming righteous. It does not. There has never been a law that was capable of earning Eternal Life for mankind. Such is never earned.

However, it is clear from these verses that man by nature has a "moral sense" of righteousness. Showing the "work of righteousness" written in their hearts. By nature, and of "the same lump" as Jews, (who actually received training to please God) in the law, there is a willingness and pleasure to please God.

Yet, God has declared them all under sin. "Under sin" is a condemnation irrespective of moral willingness to please God.

However, no one can deny the moral willingness in man to please God BY NATURE given these Scriptures.

Which destroys the arguments found in Calvinism concerning Total Depravity. It is not that man is not righteous by nature. The Gospel is that man can not be righteous ENOUGH.....

 

[civic]

I think there is a God shaped vacuum that all mankind is aware of naturally as the passage above points to but man tries to fill it with everything except God.

What do you think @praise_yeshua ?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I think there is a God shaped vacuum that all mankind is aware of naturally as the passage above points to but man tries to fill it with everything except God.

What do you think @praise_yeshua ?

Absolutely.

Which is a self destructing avoidance of God.

 

[Behold]

However, no one can deny the moral willingness in man to please God BY NATURE given these Scriptures.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

New Living Translation
And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.

English Standard Version
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

Berean Standard Bible
And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil.

Berean Literal Bible
And this is the judgement, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil.

King James Bible
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

New King James Version
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

New American Standard Bible
And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil.

NASB 1995
“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

NASB 1977
“And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil.

Legacy Standard Bible
And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

Amplified Bible
This is the judgment [that is, the cause for indictment, the test by which people are judged, the basis for the sentence]: the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

Christian Standard Bible
This is the judgment: The light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
“This, then, is the judgment: The light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I think there is a God shaped vacuum that all mankind is aware of naturally as the passage above points to but man tries to fill it with everything except God.

What do you think @praise_yeshua ?

To add to what I said, some would be different "if they only knew".

The closer a person gets to God, the more impact they can have preaching/teachings others about God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

New Living Translation
And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.

English Standard Version
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

Berean Standard Bible
And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil.

Berean Literal Bible
And this is the judgement, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil.

King James Bible
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

New King James Version
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

New American Standard Bible
And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil.

NASB 1995
“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

NASB 1977
“And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil.

Legacy Standard Bible
And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

Amplified Bible
This is the judgment [that is, the cause for indictment, the test by which people are judged, the basis for the sentence]: the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

Christian Standard Bible
This is the judgment: The light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
“This, then, is the judgment: The light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil.

When did that LIGHT come into the world? Wasn't it a very long time ago?

How has the message of that "LIGHT" (Jesus Christ) changed and been perverted since that time?

Which brings us to perfect point to be made. I mean we seriously have a Calvinist among us today that has a "Alpha and Omega" ministries. I would never dare try to do something so stupid as to "MARKET" myself in such a manner. I see James White is such nonsense. Not Jesus.

Imagine multiplying this countless times through all the others attempting to make themselves the "mediators" of God to humanity and what do you have today?

A message of men, not a message of Christ.

 

[Behold]

When did that LIGHT come into the world? Wasn't it a very long time ago?

1.) "Jesus is the Light of the World"

2.) All the born again.. "Have been translated from.... .Darkness......>>TO Light"

3.) All the born again are "Children of The LIGHT".

How?

By being "IN CHRIST" and Christ is "The Light".

 

[praise_yeshua]

1.) "Jesus is the Light of the World"

So there isn't anything different now than in His Incarnation?

He left behind Ambassadors.

2.) All the born again.. "Have been translated from.... .Darkness......>>TO Light"

How much darkness is there today?

3.) All the born again are "Children of The LIGHT".

How?

By being "IN CHRIST" and Christ is "The Light".

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Like these?

 

[Behold]

So there isn't anything different now than in His Incarnation?

There are His Children of "The Light"

The Born again.

How much darkness is there today?

In the world, its Total Darkness.
This is why the born again are told we are in it, but not to be "of it".

think of it like this.

The world is a sewer, so if you get in it, or if you are in it? what are you?

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not

Did.

 

[praise_yeshua]

There are His Children of "The Light"

The Born again.



In the world, its Total Darkness.
This is why the born again are told we are in it, but not to be "of it".

think of it like this.

The world is a sewer, so if you get in it, or if you are in it? what are you?




Did.

I'm arguing points with you but now I'm not certain where you're going with your responses....

We are never the Light. We reflect the LIGHT.

 

[TibiasDad]

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

I want to be very clear. I'm not trying in any way to establish that the "law of God" establishes any sense of redeeming righteous. It does not. There has never been a law that was capable of earning Eternal Life for mankind. Such is never earned.

However, it is clear from these verses that man by nature has a "moral sense" of righteousness. Showing the "work of righteousness" written in their hearts. By nature, and of "the same lump" as Jews, (who actually received training to please God) in the law, there is a willingness and pleasure to please God.

Yet, God has declared them all under sin. "Under sin" is a condemnation irrespective of moral willingness to please God.

However, no one can deny the moral willingness in man to please God BY NATURE given these Scriptures.

Which destroys the arguments found in Calvinism concerning Total Depravity. It is not that man is not righteous by nature. The Gospel is that man can not be righteous ENOUGH.....

I think there are several indications of a cognitive awareness of righteousness in human nature.

First is there is a natural sense of good and bad, right and wrong. This intuitiveness is nurtured by our family upbringing and cultural norms, but every society has had an inherent grasp of the principles of you shall not kill, steal, lie, etc.

Secondly, we have always seen the need for a God. Indeed, Rom 1 tells us that we suppress the truth and knowledge we had of God and replace it with counterfeit versions of our own devices, but the natural awareness that we are not the top of the food chain has always existed.

Sin corrupts, and all the more as we obey it’s desires, but the grace of God goes before us and allows the reality of the Light to be seen, though we are wont to remain in darkness.


Doug

 

[TomL]

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

I want to be very clear. I'm not trying in any way to establish that the "law of God" establishes any sense of redeeming righteous. It does not. There has never been a law that was capable of earning Eternal Life for mankind. Such is never earned.

However, it is clear from these verses that man by nature has a "moral sense" of righteousness. Showing the "work of righteousness" written in their hearts. By nature, and of "the same lump" as Jews, (who actually received training to please God) in the law, there is a willingness and pleasure to please God.

Yet, God has declared them all under sin. "Under sin" is a condemnation irrespective of moral willingness to please God.

However, no one can deny the moral willingness in man to please God BY NATURE given these Scriptures.

Which destroys the arguments found in Calvinism concerning Total Depravity. It is not that man is not righteous by nature. The Gospel is that man can not be righteous ENOUGH.....

Yes, It does

 

[TomL]

I think there are several indications of a cognitive awareness of righteousness in human nature.

First is there is a natural sense of good and bad, right and wrong. This intuitiveness is nurtured by our family upbringing and cultural norms, but every society has had an inherent grasp of the principles of you shall not kill, steal, lie, etc.

Secondly, we have always seen the need for a God. Indeed, Rom 1 tells us that we suppress the truth and knowledge we had of God and replace it with counterfeit versions of our our devices, but the natural awareness that we are not the top of the food chain has always existed.

Sin corrupts, and all the more as we obey it’s desires, but the grace of God goes before us and allows the reality of the Light to be seen, though we are wont to remain in darkness.


Doug

There are those who hold the effects of total depravity were removed by the work of Christ

The fact is that it really does not matter which view of “original sin” one holds. Did Adam’s sin bring only physical death upon us? Or did it also bring spiritual depravity—partial or total? Did it also make us guilty sinners, condemned to eternal punishment in hell? In the final analysis it does not matter what content anyone feels compelled to pour into the concept of “original sin,” because Paul’s main point is this: whatever the whole human race got (or would have gotten) from Adam has been completely canceled out for the whole human race by the gracious atoning work of Jesus Christ. Make the Adamic legacy as dire as you want: physical death, total depravity, genuine guilt, and condemnation to hell. The whole point of the passage is that Christ’s “one act of righteousness” (5:18) has completely intercepted, nullified, negated, canceled, and counteracted whatever was destined to be ours because of Adam. All the potential spiritual consequences of Adam’s sin are intercepted even before they can be applied. The only consequence that actually takes effect is physical death, and it is countered with the promise of resurrection to eternal life.

This understanding of 5:12–19 has been clearly understood at least since the Reformation, when it was taught by Anabaptist writers. Those within the Wesleyan tradition also generally hold this understanding. This principle has been most clearly stated in earlier Restoration Movement writings. As A.I. Hobbs (269) succinctly puts it,

It should be emphasized that, under the reign of grace, whatever death was brought upon our race through Adamic sin by reason of his federal headship was annulled by reason of the federal headship of the second Adam.… What, without our will or consent, we lost in the first Adam, we have regained or shall regain in the second Adam, without our will or consent.

 

[Rockson]

However, no one can deny the moral willingness in man to please God BY NATURE given these Scriptures.

Which destroys the arguments found in Calvinism concerning Total Depravity. It is not that man is not righteous by nature. The Gospel is that man can not be righteous ENOUGH.....

It's hard to put some of these things in words. Is natural man when having their concciencce bothering them a moral willingness? Perhaps it could be said this way. Natural men some of them or many of them seek to override their conscience so couldn't that be said the thing they are morally willing to do.

None the less I am totally against what Calvinists say about total depravity. Their argument is men are not able to do anything good in any form or fashion including even having a desire for God in the slightest way. Scriptures don't go that direction. No natural men can't produce righteousness according to the law but I liken men's ability this way......like an alcoholic that can't stop his drinking and his life is in bondage but such doesn't mean he can't want a better life and consent for another to impart within him strength.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It's hard to put some of these things in words. Is natural man when having their concciencce bothering them a moral willingness? Perhaps it could be said this way. Natural men some of them or many of them seek to override their conscience so couldn't that be said the thing they are morally willing to do.

Good points!

None the less I am totally against what Calvinists say about total depravity. Their argument is men are not able to do anything good in any form or fashion including even having a desire for God in the slightest way. Scriptures don't go that direction. No natural men can't produce righteousness according to the law but I liken men's ability this way......like an alcoholic that can't stop his drinking and his life is in bondage but such doesn't mean he can't want a better life and consent for another to impart within him strength.

There is a morality in this life that takes the place of God. It mimics God. It helps others. It builds societies rich in culture but absent God's presence.

The key being "mimics" God. Which is why it is impossible for a law/morality to actually save someone. God is self satisfying. Anything that enables man to mimic God absent the very nature of God has no Eternal value.

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

[Behold]

We are never the Light. We reflect the LIGHT.

The Born again, are "ONE with God"... and 'IN Christ."

We exist IN the KOG.....

"Children of the LIGHT"..

"born OF THE LIGHT"..........having been "translated from Darkness....>TO Light".

We are OF the Light because we are born again into it, within it.

Jesus IS The Light of the World.....and not just that Light.

And the born again are..

"As JESUS IS..... so are the born again, in this world"...

 

[praise_yeshua]

The Born again, are "ONE with God"... and 'IN Christ."

We exist IN the KOG.....

"Children of the LIGHT"..

"born OF THE LIGHT"..........having been "translated from Darkness....>TO Light".

We are OF the Light because we are born again into it, within it.

Jesus IS The Light of the World.....and not just that Light.

And the born again are..

"As JESUS IS..... so are the born again, in this world"...

No one has beheld your "Glory" ... "full of Grace and Truth"....

Those people who claims such things for themselves are seeking power with the Good name of Christ. You don't a name in Christ.

 

[Behold]

No one has beheld your "Glory" ... "full of Grace and Truth"....

The apostles said they did.

John 1:14.

And the born again beheld it, when they understood The Christ and The Cross of Christ.

Those people who claims such things for themselves are seeking power with the Good name of Christ.

No one is taking God's name in vain by having the revelation knowledge regarding what it means to be "seated in heavenly places" "in Christ" by being "Born again".

"God exists IN LIGHT". and the born again are "translated from Darkness.....>TO LIGHT".

Its THAT= Light. .........as that is to become "ONE with God".

You don't a name in Christ.

All the born again are "in Christ"

 

[praise_yeshua]

The apostles said they did.

John 1:14.

And the born again beheld it, when they understood The Christ and The Cross of Christ.

Deception on your part. You haven't replaced Christ and you're not an apostle. You have no authority nor rank to express any sense of power over another.

No one is taking God's name in vain by having the revelation knowledge regarding what it means to be "seated in heavenly places" "in Christ" by being "Born again".

"God exists IN LIGHT". and the born again are "translated from Darkness.....>TO LIGHT".

Its THAT= Light. .........as that is to become "ONE with God".

How do you put off light when you are in the Light? Do you know how light works?

You seek men to follow you. We make disciples of Christ. Not ourselves.

 

[Eleazar]

The apostles said they did.

John 1:14.

And the born again beheld it, when they understood The Christ and The Cross of Christ.

No one is taking God's name in vain by having the revelation knowledge regarding what it means to be "seated in heavenly places" "in Christ" by being "Born again".

"God exists IN LIGHT". and the born again are "translated from Darkness.....>TO LIGHT".
Its THAT= Light. .........as that is to become "ONE with God".

All the born again are "in Christ"

Yes believers are born again and in Christ, that's our position. This article from got questions explains it thoroughly.

To “abide” is to live, continue, or remain; so, to abide in Christ is to live in Him or remain in Him. When a person is saved, he or she is described as being “in Christ” (Romans 8:1; 2 Corinthians 5:17), held secure in a permanent relationship (John 10:28–29). Therefore, abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience, rather, it is the position of all true believers. The difference between those abiding in Christ and those not abiding in Christ is the difference between the saved and the unsaved.

Abiding in Christ is taught in 1 John 2:5–6, where it is synonymous with “knowing” Christ (verses 2 and 3). Later in the same chapter, John equates “remaining” in the Father and the Son with having the promise of eternal life (verses 24 and 25). Biblically, “abiding in,” “remaining in,” and “knowing” Christ are references to the same thing: salvation.

The phrase abiding in Christ pictures an intimate, close relationship, and not just a superficial acquaintance. In John 15:4–7, Jesus tells His disciples that drawing life from Him is essential, using the picture of branches united to a vine: “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.” Without that vital union with Christ that salvation provides, there can be no life and no productivity. Elsewhere, the Bible likens our relationship with Christ to that of a body with a head (Colossians 1:18)—another essential union.

Some people take the warning of John 15:6 (branches that do not abide in the vine are thrown away and burned) to mean that Christians are always in danger of losing their salvation. In other words, they say it’s possible to be saved but not “abide,” in which case we would be cast away. But this could only be true if “abiding” were separate from salvation, referring to a state of intimacy with Christ we must strive to attain post-salvation. The Bible is clear that salvation comes by grace and is maintained by grace (Galatians 3:2–3). Also, if a branch could somehow fall away from the vine, resulting in the loss of salvation, then other, very clear passages of Scripture would be contradicted (see John 10:27–30).

It is best to interpret the True Vine metaphor this way: Jesus is the True Vine, obviously. The branches who “abide” in Him are the truly saved—they have a real and vital connection to the Savior. The withered branches who do not “abide” in Him are the unsaved pretenders who feigned an attachment to the Vine but drew no life from Him. In the end, the pretenders will be seen for what they were: hangers-on who had no authentic attachment to Jesus. For a while, both Peter and Judas seemed identical in their walk with Christ. But Peter was attached to the Vine; Judas was not.

John restates the withered-branch principle this way: “They [people now opposed to Christ] went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us” (1 John 2:19).

One of the proofs of salvation is perseverance, or sustained abiding in Christ. The saved will continue in their walk with Christ (see Revelation 2:26). That is, they will “abide” or remain in Him. God will complete His work in them (Philippians 1:6), and they will bring forth much fruit to the glory of God (John 15:5). Those who fall away, turn their backs on Christ, or fail to abide simply show their lack of saving faith. Abiding is not what saves us, but it is one of the signs of salvation.

Proofs of abiding in Christ (i.e., proofs that one is truly saved and not just pretending) include obedience to Christ’s commands (John 15:10; 1 John 3:24); following Jesus’ example (1 John 2:6); living free from habitual sin (1 John 3:6); and the awareness of a divine presence within one’s life (1 John 4:13).