Total Depravity

Fine with me, You're definitely entitled to your opinion. But you did ask me to do this/



And I gave it my best shot. Looked at Total Depravity from both sides.

This same person doesn't claim to be a Calvinist whenever it fits his narrative. He is obviously lying. He can't have it both ways. He can't claim to be a Calvinist and then reject Calvinism when he finds it appealing to his current dilemma.
 
Human beings haven't changed a bit since Adam was created. We've all had the same human nature that Adam, and Jesus had. The only DIFFERENCE was that Jesus NEVER let His lust conceive.

Sorry Bob. This is utterly preposterous.

Adam didn't have dementia. Adam never suffered from Scarlet Fever. Adam didn't have epilepsy or Autism. Adam didn't struggle with the silliness of the English language.

I could go on for hours of how Adam was different than YOU.

You suffering today from diabetes?
 
I merely requested an accurate definition since your initial refutation suggested you had a flawed definition of the term and were rejecting "Utter Depravity" (which I reject as well and I have yet to meet the person that believes that all people are utterly demonic and incapable of any action not completely reprobate).

I am indifferent to your acceptance or rejection of Calvinism. As a Particular Baptist - I believe God is your "mother", not me, and you have "individual soul liberty" to believe whatever the heck you want.
God is my mother? Not you?

You're getting too weird for me dude.

I'll just take my "individual soul liberty on down the road".

You know what they say... takes all kinds.
 
So you can stack commentaries until they reach the MOON, and I will still not be convinced that Romans 3:10-12 is not true and people are ACTUALLY "good" and people all "want to seek God" and people want to "do right".

I think you should re-read this chapter. Paul is speaking to Jews, who were given the Oracles of but didn't believe them. These men were slandering Paul, who he said their "Damnation is Just". He already taught (Proved before) that they are all still under sin, and that God's Judgment is impartial, and therefore Paul was no better than them, that if Paul lived as they did, he too would receive indignation and wrath.

Rom. 2: 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to "his deeds":

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, (Body of Christ) eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, "indignation and wrath",

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

These men were persecuting the Church of God, just as they ate up God's People, as they eat bread in Psalms 14 (They shamed those whose refuge is the Lord) and also the same Jews who were enemies of David in Psalms 5, the other Psalms Paul quoted. This world's religions preach that Paul is teaching there isn't any difference between those whose refuge is the Lord, the body of Christ, and the "workers of iniquity" who slandered Paul and were Davids enemies.

Psalms 5: 5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. 6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

8 Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face. 9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; "their" throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue. 10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.

Paul isn't teaching what this world's religions have taught you. The Body of Christ, and those who obey Jesus and Seek the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness, "ARE" people who ACTUALLY patiently continue in "good" doing, and they "ARE" people all "want to seek God" and people want to "do right" by God and His Son.

I know you and I have been taught what you are promoting since our childhood. But neither Paul, nor the Disciples, nor Abraham, or Moses, or Caleb, or Peter, or Joshua, nor John's mouth was an open sepulcher. And the poison of asps is NOT under their lips: And the Body of Christs mouth is NOT full of cursing and bitterness, Their feet are NOT swift to shed blood: and Destruction and misery are NOT in their ways:

This is just another in the "many" deceptions both you and I have been taught by this world's religions. You read that again, using your own mind, and show me how Paul is teaching you that all the members of the Church of God are "Still under sin".

He is not.
 
God is my mother? Not you?

You're getting too weird for me dude.
Quote from the internet (I will let them explain it to you):

What does it mean when someone says "I'm not your mother"?
She means she isn't in your life to take care of you. like your mother would. She is also letting you know that she feels in some way that your expectations are beyond what is suitable and reasonable to her.
 
Quote from the internet (I will let them explain it to you):

What does it mean when someone says "I'm not your mother"?
She means she isn't in your life to take care of you. like your mother would. She is also letting you know that she feels in some way that your expectations are beyond what is suitable and reasonable to her.
You're delusional, I never asked you to take care of me. I never asked you anything. I have no expectations for you. You asked me to look up total depravity and I did and now you want to get all weird. Take off your little mother dog persona.
 
You're delusional, I never asked you to take care of me. I never asked you anything. I have no expectations for you. You asked me to look up total depravity and I did and now you want to get all weird. Take off your little mother dog persona.
A little context, if you please …

I said:
I am indifferent to your acceptance or rejection of Calvinism. As a Particular Baptist - I believe God is your "mother", not me, and you have "individual soul liberty" to believe whatever the heck you want.

TRANSLATION:
I am not responsible for teaching you the truth (like your mother is).
God is responsible for teaching you the truth (like your mother did).
What you choose to believe (Calvinism or Arminanism) is God’s responsibility, not my responsibility.
So I was just trying to inform you that you had your head up your *** with your bad definition of “Total Depravity” … I was not trying to convince you that it was true. Your wall of text refuting Total Depravity was wasted on me (I don’t care what you believe).

Carry on without me.
 
Did Paul include Abel, Seth and Enoch in "all"? There is context to these words. Timing. Details. You're not better than any Calvinist at all. Again. Like Satan, you're accusing faithful men of sin when you zero evidence they did.

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The fact they "went out of the way" most certainly details that they were once IN THE WAY.

ROM 3:9For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know.”
18“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”


Paul’s message is that sin is human problem and that no part of humanity is exempt from its effects. All of humanity, Jew and Gentile equally, “are under the power of sin.”

Thus, later in the chapter, Paul concludes, “21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in h Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

There is no room for exception in Paul view.


Doug
 
A little context, if you please …

I said:
I am indifferent to your acceptance or rejection of Calvinism. As a Particular Baptist - I believe God is your "mother", not me, and you have "individual soul liberty" to believe whatever the heck you want.

TRANSLATION:
I am not responsible for teaching you the truth (like your mother is).
God is responsible for teaching you the truth (like your mother did).
What you choose to believe (Calvinism or Arminanism) is God’s responsibility, not my responsibility.
So I was just trying to inform you that you had your head up your *** with your bad definition of “Total Depravity” … I was not trying to convince you that it was true. Your wall of text refuting Total Depravity was wasted on me (I don’t care what you believe).

Carry on without me.
Wrong again I was never with you. I also never asked you to care what I believe. But since you seem to have a short memory let me remind you that your concern for what I believe is what started the conversation. The conversation that you started by the way.


I wouldn't let you be responsible for taking my trash can out to the curb much less teaching me anything.
 
Wrong again I was never with you. I also never asked you to care what I believe. But since you seem to have a short memory let me remind you that your concern for what I believe is what started the conversation. The conversation that you started by the way.


I wouldn't let you be responsible for taking my trash can out to the curb much less teaching me anything.
I love it when anti-Calvinists are so sweet.
 
“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live.” Deuteronomy 30:19

“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live.”

If as the Calvinist understanding of total depravity is true. Do you think it would be impossible for the Israelites to obey because they would have been totally unable due to their depravity?

God expected the Israelites to observe the covenant stipulations given at Mt. Sinai. Again, one must ask how this expectation could be present given a total inability to do anything of spiritual good as Calvinism insists?

Deuteronomy 30:1 as presented to the people of Israel on the plains of Moab to “choose life” is not even a remote possibility if the people suffered a total depravity that made them totally unable to respond in this manner.

Assuming God, through Moses, is addressing the people with integrity and not engaging in some form of mockery or deception, then the call to the people to choose life and blessing rather than death and curse nullifies the Calvinist notion of total depravity.
 
I love it when Calvinists pretend to be all offended when confronted with their own confrontational behavior. When dealing with them it's good to keep this scripture in mind.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1 Peter 5:8
 
“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live.” Deuteronomy 30:19

“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live.”

If as the Calvinist understanding of total depravity is true. Do you think it would be impossible for the Israelites to obey because they would have been totally unable due to their depravity?

God expected the Israelites to observe the covenant stipulations given at Mt. Sinai. Again, one must ask how this expectation could be present given a total inability to do anything of spiritual good as Calvinism insists?

Deuteronomy 30:1 as presented to the people of Israel on the plains of Moab to “choose life” is not even a remote possibility if the people suffered a total depravity that made them totally unable to respond in this manner.

Assuming God, through Moses, is addressing the people with integrity and not engaging in some form of mockery or deception, then the call to the people to choose life and blessing rather than death and curse nullifies the Calvinist notion of total depravity.
Don't you know the dead and totally depraved having total inability cannot choose anything. C'mon get with it lol.

It makes God a liar in the Torah which you quoted.
 
Don't you know the dead and totally depraved having total inability cannot choose anything. C'mon get with it lol.

It makes God a liar in the Torah which you quoted.
If Israel had chosen to seek God, they would have enjoyed the covenant blessings and lived. God does not offer false hope to Israel or to modern day believers.

‘But I gave you also cleanness of teeth in all your cities, and lack of bread in all your places, yet you have not returned to Me,’ declares the Lord.
Amos 4:6

The Bible clearly teaches that humans have freedom of choice when it comes to salvation.

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.” Joshua 24:15

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

By studying these verses and others related to free will one is able to find out just how far Calvinism has gone astray from the true Gospel
 
ROM 3:9For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know.”
18“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”


Paul’s message is that sin is human problem and that no part of humanity is exempt from its effects. All of humanity, Jew and Gentile equally, “are under the power of sin.”

Thus, later in the chapter, Paul concludes, “21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in h Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

There is no room for exception in Paul view.


Doug

You seem to be delusional. I never mentioned one single Jew. Yet here you are referencing Jews. I didn't reference one single Gentile, yet here you are referencing Gentiles.

You're a false accuser of Godly men you know nothing about and men that Paul didn't reference.

You have a false gospel just like every Calvinist. You're no better than them. In fact, in many ways, you're worse.

So go ahead. Show that I referenced a Jew or a Gentile. Go for it "false accuser".
 
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I love it when people use sarcasm.

Yeah. I've debated with him for many years. His new found "superiority" in dialogue doesn't go very far.

I don't mind the arguments nor the confrontation. In my mind, it is often good. Jesus never avoided a confrontation when it was needed. Anger is a great motivator.
 
If Israel had chosen to seek God, they would have enjoyed the covenant blessings and lived. God does not offer false hope to Israel or to modern day believers.

‘But I gave you also cleanness of teeth in all your cities, and lack of bread in all your places, yet you have not returned to Me,’ declares the Lord.
Amos 4:6

The Bible clearly teaches that humans have freedom of choice when it comes to salvation.

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.” Joshua 24:15

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

By studying these verses and others related to free will one is able to find out just how far Calvinism has gone astray from the true Gospel
Amen
 
Yeah. I've debated with him for many years. His new found "superiority" in dialogue doesn't go very far.

I don't mind the arguments nor the confrontation. In my mind, it is often good. Jesus never avoided a confrontation when it was needed. Anger is a great motivator.
I hear that. But I guess we're just not supposed to hang on to our anger.

The phrase, "Don't let the sun go down while you are still angry," is a paraphrase of a verse in the Psalms, "Don't sin by letting anger control you.

Prisons are full of people that didn't follow that scripture.
 
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