Those who deny the Lord Jesus is God (=YHWH) are not saved (2 Corinthians 11:4)

[Matthias]

@synergy is on record as saying that the trinitarian scholars who produced the Geneva Bible - “the best Protestant scholars of the day” - were “grammar illiterate persons”. Does anyone else her believe that they were?

He obviously won’t be able to explain why the finest trinitarian minds of the time rendered John’s prologue as they did. Is there anyone else on the forum who would like to explain it for us?

 

[Matthias]

Let’s look at how another trinitarian translator whom @synergy believes is a “grammar illiterate person” renders the prologue in John’s Gospel.

”In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.

The same was in the beginnynge with God.

All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.

In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men and the lyght shyneth in the darcknes but the darcknes comprehended it not.”

(William Tyndale, 1534)

 

[101G]

Let’s look at John 1:3.

”All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made.”

(Geneva Bible)

GINOLJC, to all.
Just curious, How did "it" get translated as such?

101G

 

[Matthias]

GINOLJC, to all.
Just curious, How did "it" get translated as such?

101G

Well, if @synergy is correct, it was put there by trinitarian translators who were “grammar illiterate”.

 

[101G]

Well, if @synergy is correct, it was put there by trinitarian translators who were “grammar illiterate”.

ok, thanks. but him is correct as G846 αὐτός autos (af-tos') states. it (self). here in John 1:3 it-self, as the KJV could translate it, is a PP, in which "IT" would be the subject, either a PERSON, or a THING. and the CREATOR is not a THING. but what the KJV do is translate it correctly as the same as in reference back to verse 2. because "it" as a pronoun states, "used to refer to a thing previously mentioned or easily identified:". well there was no thing, (it), previously mentioned. but also, a second definition of "IT" as a pronoun can be used to identify a person. this definition can be found here, https://www.bing.com/search?q=it+de...5872496698238B96C880C7AC&ghsh=0&ghacc=0&ghpl=

so the "IT" is "SELF" or the afore mention.... "God", who is a PERSON, just as the definition below states, PP.and PP indicate "personal pronoun" which should have cleared up the matter, for a thing, (it), is not personal, or a PERSON, meaning the same "PERSON", afore mention in verses 2 and 1. or as John 1: and 2 describe the "ECHAD" of God manifested in the flesh, as John 1:14 clearly states there. so the HIM is correct in John 1:3 as God in third person in reference to self or himself?

HIM: 101G is using the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
G846 αὐτός autos (af-tos') p p
self.
{reflexive pronoun used of the third person (alone or in the comparative G1438), and of the other persons (with the proper personal pronoun)}
[from the particle au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind (backward))]
KJV: her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), (the) same, (him-, my-, thy-)self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which
Compare: G848

BINGO, there he is "him", the ECHAD MY,_THY-)SELF. the ECHAD describe perfectly/

this was a GOOD question, and this is why we need more discussion like this on the forum to get clear understanding of the WORD of God, and why these apostles and disciples used words in such manner.

101G

ps, the Geneva Bible is wrong there in John 1:3.

 

[Matthias]

ok, thanks. but him is correct as G846 αὐτός autos (af-tos') states. it (self). here in John 1:3 it-self, as the KJV could translate it, is a PP, in which "IT" would be the subject, either a PERSON, or a THING. and the CREATOR is not a THING. but what the KJV do is translate it correctly as the same as in reference back to verse 2. because "it" as a pronoun states, "used to refer to a thing previously mentioned or easily identified:". well there was no thing, (it), previously mentioned. but also, a second definition of "IT" as a pronoun can be used to identify a person. this definition can be found here, https://www.bing.com/search?q=it+de...5872496698238B96C880C7AC&ghsh=0&ghacc=0&ghpl=

so the "IT" is "SELF" or the afore mention.... "God", who is a PERSON, just as the definition below states, PP.and PP indicate "personal pronoun" which should have cleared up the matter, for a thing, (it), is not personal, or a PERSON, meaning the same "PERSON", afore mention in verses 2 and 1. or as John 1: and 2 describe the "ECHAD" of God manifested in the flesh, as John 1:14 clearly states there. so the HIM is correct in John 1:3 as God in third person in reference to self or himself?

HIM: 101G is using the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
G846 αὐτός autos (af-tos') p p
self.
{reflexive pronoun used of the third person (alone or in the comparative G1438), and of the other persons (with the proper personal pronoun)}
[from the particle au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind (backward))]
KJV: her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), (the) same, (him-, my-, thy-)self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which
Compare: G848

BINGO, there he is "him", the ECHAD MY,_THY-)SELF. the ECHAD describe perfectly/

this was a GOOD question, and this is why we need more discussion like this on the forum to get clear understanding of the WORD of God, and why these apostles and disciples used words in such manner.

101G

ps, the Geneva Bible is wrong there in John 1:3.

The Geneva Bible is correct in John 1:3. All we need now is for a trinitarian member of the forum who knows why it is correct to explain it for us. I specify “trinitarian” here because trinitarians aren’t going to listen to a unitarian. That is why when I speak with trinitarians I use trinitarian scholarship rather than unitarian scholarship to make my point.

 

[101G]

The Geneva Bible is correct in John 1:3.

ERROR, did you not understand that G846 αὐτός autos (af-tos') pp means "self". which is a PERSON? so IT is incorrect. did you not see the IDENTIEFER? ... PP PERSONAL PRONOUN. if it's "PERSONAL" then it's not a THING.

come on M, this is basic English.

101G.

 

[Fred]

1. John 1:3 The son of God declareth that same his everlasting Godhead, both by the creating of all things, and also by the preserving of them, and especially by the excellent gifts of reason and understanding, wherewith he that beautified man above all other creatures.
2. John 1:3 Paul expoundeth this place, Col. 1:15 and 16.
3. John 1:3 That is, as the Father did work, so did the Son work with him: for he was fellow worker with him.
4. John 1:3 Of all those things which were made, nothing was made without him.

Bible Gateway passage: John 1:3 - 1599 Geneva Bible

All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Matthias]

ERROR, did you not understand that G846 αὐτός autos (af-tos') pp means "self". which is a PERSON? so IT is incorrect. did you not see the IDENTIEFER? ... PP PERSONAL PRONOUN. if it's "PERSONAL" then it's not a THING.

come on M, this is basic English.

101G.

See the basic English in the Geneva Bible.

@synergy doesn’t know why the trinitarian translators made the decision they did. You don’t know why they made the decision they did. I doubt that any trinitarian member of the forum knows why they made the decision that they did, but we need to wait and see. I hope that there is.

 

[101G]

to all, SELF
here in John 1:3 the reason why John use G846 αὐτός autos (af-tos') pp
self.
is because God was "ALONE", and by HIM-.SELF. this is the ECHAD right in front of our faces.

101G.

 

[101G]

1. John 1:3 The son of God declareth that same his everlasting Godhead, both by the creating of all things, and also by the preserving of them, and especially by the excellent gifts of reason and understanding, wherewith he that beautified man above all other creatures.
2. John 1:3 Paul expoundeth this place, Col. 1:15 and 16.
3. John 1:3 That is, as the Father did work, so did the Son work with him: for he was fellow worker with him.
4. John 1:3 Of all those things which were made, nothing was made without him.

Bible Gateway passage: John 1:3 - 1599 Geneva Bible

All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made.

www.biblegateway.com

good point, but 101G must disagree with what the AMP said, as well as some other translation, especially the Geneva Bible "All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being".

how could they translate it as "THROUGH?"... not through, but BY, BY, BY, himself. they made a MISTAKE on their part.
because if the Son of God MADE ALL THINGS by did the Son of God said "HE" meaning God Made all things including Man. listen and learn, Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female," and the HE here is GOD, according to Mark 10:6.

but notice, he here is HIM as the ONE person who made all things, but not as the Son. this is why,
G846 αὐτός autos (af-tos') p.
self.

this is USED, "SELF/HIM" in John 1:3 which refers back to GOD (mark 10:6), in verses 1 and 2 of JOHN. understand as 101G said before, the Son of God was not at Genesis 1.... but the PERSON JESUS was. the HIM in John 1:3 is the HE in Matthews 19:4 who is the "PERSON" JESUS, and NOT the THING, (which is flesh and Bone a body... a "THING". understand now John 1:3?

the "THING", or the IT, the Flesh and Bone was NOT at the Beginning, but the PERSON in the THING or the BODY was. so again the Geneva bible is WRONG. the "IT" is not the PERSON at John 1:3 but the "HIM"/SELF is PERSON.

this is why 101G prefer the KJV of the bible. it's self-explanatory.

101G.

 

[Behold]

Which includes this:

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 - New American Standard Bible 1995

The Fact of Christ’s Resurrection - Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of...

www.biblegateway.com

Bro Fred,

The Resurrection proves that the New Covenant has taken effect.

The Resurrection, is the proof that Jesus is the Messiah.

However, its the Cross of Christ....that is the Blood Atonement, that is the Salvation of God, that is John 3:16-17.

And :

2nd Corinthians 5:19

 

[Matthias]

“In the begynnynge was the worde, and the worde was wyth God; and God was the worde. The same was in the begynnyng wyth God. All things were made by it, and wythout it, was made nothynge that was made. In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men, and the lyght shyneth in darcknes, and the darcknes comprehended it not.”

(John 1:1-5, Great Bible, 1539)

What is the Great Bible? | GotQuestions.org

What is the Great Bible? When was the Great Bible published? Who authorized the translation of the Great Bible?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Behold]

That’s not what Paul said is the gospel in Roman’s 1:16 or 1 Cor 15

Romans 1:16-For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile

what you posted is the "preaching of the Cross'.

Its "we preach Christ Crucified"..

This is the Gospel... "The preaching of the Cross".

The Grace of God, that is our Salvation, is the Cross of Christ.

Literally : Jesus blood and death on the Cross, : is Salvation..

For God so love the world that He GAVE JESUS ON THE CROSS....

This is, as Paul teaches.. "The simplicity that is in Christ".

Or, to become born again, in Christ, is based on Believing : "The preaching of the Cross". = "we preach Christ Crucified"..

That's the Gospel that we hear, and "faith comes by hearing", "the preaching of the Cross'...

When we tell the unbeliever that """"Jesus DIED for your SIN""""............

Where?
Where did that happen>?

That is the "preaching of the Cross"...as "We preach CHRIST Crucified".

 

[Studyman]

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached,
or you receive a different spirit which you have not received,
or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Jesus - pneuma (S/spirit) - Gospel
All three stand or fall together.

Heb. 4: 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, "as well as unto them": but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Yes, the Holy One of Israel, and the Gospel given to Israel, and the Spirit on those who believed, like Caleb and Joshua, is the same Gospel, from the Same Christ, with the Same Spirit, that we also received.

As Paul said in 1st Cor. 10;

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Therefore Paul warns;

2 Cor. 11: 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Rom. 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein (Within the Gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Taken from within the Gospel of Christ, Hab. 2:4) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (Revealed from within the Gospel of Christ) 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Don't listen to anyone who promotes "Another Gospel" or another Christ, than the Holy One of Israel, the Rock of our Salvation.

 

[Fred]

Bro Fred,

The Resurrection proves that the New Covenant has taken effect.

The Resurrection, is the proof that Jesus is the Messiah.

However, its the Cross of Christ....that is the Blood Atonement, that is the Salvation of God, that is John 3:16-17.

And :

2nd Corinthians 5:19

If there is no resurrection of Christ, then the gospel is void (1 Corinthians 15:17).

 

[Behold]

If there is no resurrection of Christ, then the gospel is void (1 Corinthians 15:17).

Who is teaching that Christ isn't Alive?

Are you?

Im not..

Now, here is New Covenant Salvation.

A.) God became One of us, to die on the Cross to forgive the sin of all of us..

its our unforgiven SIN that keeps us out of God's family.

So, God did this for us..

"God hath made Jesus to be SIN for us"....as ....."Jesus is the ONE TIME....ETERNAL....Sacrifice" for sin".

See that ?

That is the "Gospel"........"the Preaching of the Cross'. or as Paul says...>"WE... PREACH... CHRIST... Crucified".

 

[synergy]

Well, if @synergy is correct, it was put there by trinitarian translators who were “grammar illiterate”.

Face it @Matthias. Once again your ignorance and scoffing of most anything Greek has made you crash and burn. The Geneva translators got it wrong with John 1:2-3. Actually, you've made me interested in understanding why this glaring translation error occured. Give me a list of Geneva Translator translators and their religious affiliation. I would like to know which ones were Calvinist leaning. This could very well be ground zero for the many errors that Calvinists perpetrated on the world.

Permit me the honor of introducing you to the Word of God. Do tell us how an "it" can ride a horse, have eyes, have a head, wear a crown, wear a garment, etc... This should be interesting....

Rev 19:11 And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 And His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head many crowns. And He had a name written, one that no one knew except Himself.
Rev 19:13 And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And He has on His garment, and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

[Matthias]

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in the darknesse, and the darknesse comprehendeth it not.”

(John 1:1-5, Bishops’ Bible, 1568)

What is The Bishops' Bible? | GotQuestions.org

What is The Bishops' Bible? Was The Bishops' Bible a good and accurate translation of the Bible?

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@synergy I’ve now presented you with four English translations (Geneva Bible, Tyndale Bible, Great Bible and Bishops’ Bible) which render the Greek in the same way. I will be presenting you with more.

You possess the language skills necessary to find out why the trinitarian scholars translated the passage in the way that they did. I’m embarrassed for you that you think they were “grammar illiterates”.

It should soon begin dawning on you, if it hasn’t already, that these highly skilled trinitarian translators - none of whom are “grammar illiterates” - see something in the passage that you don’t. I encourage you to seek out why they translated the passage in the manner that they did. It won’t cause you to abandon trinitarianism - it certainly didn’t cause the translators to abandon trinitarianism - and you’ll be blessed by it when you do.

 

[Matthias]

Face it @Matthias. Once again your ignorance and scoffing of most anything Greek has made you crash and burn. The Geneva translators got it wrong with John 1:2-3. Actually, you've made me interested in understanding why this glaring translation error occured. Give me a list of Geneva Translator translators and their religious affiliation. I would like to know which ones were Calvinist leaning. This could very well be ground zero for the many errors that Calvinists perpetrated on the world.

Permit me the honor of introducing you to the Word of God. Do tell us how an "it" can ride a horse, have eyes, have a head, wear a crown, wear a garment, etc... This should be interesting....

Rev 19:11 And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 And His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head many crowns. And He had a name written, one that no one knew except Himself.
Rev 19:13 And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And He has on His garment, and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

I‘ve already provided you with a list of the translators who produced the Geneva Bible.

I’m glad to hear that you’re interested in finding out why they translated the passage in the way that they did. You’ll find out why they did when you search for the reason. It’s simple, and it has nothing to do with Calvinism.