Matthias
Well-known member
Monotheism - > one God.
The one God of Jesus isn’t the one God of trinitarianism, nor is the one God of Jesus the one God of Islam.
The one God of Jesus is the Father alone. That’s unitary monotheism.
Those who deny the Lord Jesus is God (=YHWH) are not saved (2 Corinthians 11:4)
- Thread starter Fred
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Monotheism - > one God.
The one God of Jesus isn’t the one God of trinitarianism, nor is the one God of Jesus the one God of Islam.
The one God of Jesus is the Father alone. That’s unitary monotheism.
civic
Well-known member
Again you are conflating. Monotheism means One God.
I'm not talking about the difference between unitarians and us. Thats a different topic than this one. And also its only your opinion when it comes to Jesus and the Apostles beliefs. Jesus was worshipped as God, prayed to as God and called God by His disciples.
Matthias
Well-known member
We‘ve agreed that monotheism means one God.
You aren’t acknowledging that there is a difference within monotheism.
Jewish monotheism is personal, not tripersonal.
There is a difference in the monotheism of unitarians and the monotheism of non-unitarians.
The monotheism of Jesus is unitarian.
It’s not only my opinion. The God of Jesus is his Father.
The God of Jesus is the God of the Apostles.
It’s a mistake to pit Jesus against the Apostles.
The God of Jesus is the Father alone. The God of the Apostles is the same.
Jesus is a unitarian. His disciples are like their teacher, unitarian.
Jesus was worshipped as the one God’s Messiah, prayed to as the one God’s Messiah and called theos by his disciples.
Many besides the one God are called theos in scripture.
civic
Well-known member
Jesus was a monotheist but not a unitarian the same as the Apostles- they called Him God, worshiped Him as God, prayed to Him as God, gave Him the same allegiance as God, the same glory as God etc.....
Matthias
Well-known member
Let’s take a closer look at that.
Jesus is a monotheist. A monotheist is a person who has one God.
Jesus has one God. Jesus is a monotheist.
Who is his one God? His one God is only one person, the Father.
I have one God. I’m a monotheist. My one God is only one person, the Father.
You have no problem recognizing and acknowledging me as a unitarian. You shouldn’t have a problem recognizing anyone as a unitarian whose God is the Father alone. Jesus is a person whose God is the Father alone. You shouldn’t have a problem recognizing and acknowledging that Jesus is a unitarian.
The Messiah isn’t the one God. The one God is the God of the Messiah.
The one God of the Apostles isn’t going to be different from the one God of the Messiah.
The one God of the Apostles is going to be the same one God of the Messiah.
Otherwise, Jesus has one God and the Apostles have another.
civic
Well-known member
Jesus as a man is not His own God, so of course the Father is His God. No one disputes that but the Father is not the only One who is God in Scripture- the Son and the Holy Spirit are identified as God as well by the Prophets, Jesus and the Apostles.
So you are arguing a strawman by the way your frame the question. Its called in debate and apologetic's the loaded question fallacy.
hope this helps !!!
Matthias
Well-known member
Jesus as a man is by definition a unitarian. You have disputed that.
Shall we interpret scripture through the monotheism of Jesus or through a different monotheism?
I through the monotheism of Jesus; you through a monotheism that is not the monotheism of Jesus.
What is the result of that? A different understanding of who the one God is.
Who is right? Jesus.
So you are arguing a strawman by the way your frame the question. Its called in debate and apologetic's the loaded question fallacy.
hope this helps !!!
I’m inviting you and others to come and reason together.
civic
Well-known member
And Jesus accepted being called God and worshiped as God and finally killed by who you are calling unitarians for being God.
If I were you I would be distancing myself from them.
Matthias
Well-known member
Jesus is a unitarian man who was killed by the Romans. The Romans were pagans, polytheists; not unitarians.
If I were you I would be distancing myself from them.
I have distanced myself from the pagans. I’ve also distanced myself from unitarians who don’t believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah who was promised, raised up and sent by the Messiah’s one God.
If I were you I would be distancing myself from those who have a deity who isn’t the Messiah’s one God.
But I’m not you. Do what you think best.
civic
Well-known member
The Jews put him to death. Nice try but no cigar.
Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore, let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
Acts 4:10- Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…
Acts 5:30- The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree
Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life
Matthew 20:18-19
“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life."
Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
Matthias
Well-known member
The Romans, not the Jews, put him to death. The Romans (pagans) didn’t allow Jews (unitarians) to exercise capital punishment.
The Jews (unitarians) who rejected the Jew who is the Messiah (himself a unitarian) - and not every Jew did - have his blood on their hands.
civic
Well-known member
Jesus proved you wrong in several passages I just quoted. I’ll stick with Jesus clear teaching not your misunderstanding of what He said in numerous passages it was the Jews who had His blood on their hands.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Correct He is a monotheist not a unitarian
Matthias
Well-known member
I think you surely must have missed where I said the Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah have his blood on their hands.
Those who rejected Jesus as being the Messiah sent to them by their God wanted Jesus to be executed. They couldn’t do it themselves so they had the Romans do it. The Romans were their proxy. They are, therefore, just as guilty of killing Jesus as the Romans are.
Matthias
Well-known member
Correct He is a monotheist
A monotheist whose God is only one person. Thus, he is a unitary monotheist; a unitarian.
civic
Well-known member
No since He accepted the identical honor, praise, worship, glory and dedication to Him as being equal with the Father as God. One God who is Plural in Persons. He also taught the Holy Spirit was God and the Person He would send in His absence to lead and guide His disciples whom He saved and gave eternal life. Only God can save and give eternal life. And the Son is called the True God and Eternal Life.
hope this helps !!!
Matthias
Well-known member
The Messiah’s God is not Plural in persons. Your God is.
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