Those who deny the Lord Jesus is God (=YHWH) are not saved (2 Corinthians 11:4)

[Fred]

Jesus is ”God” but the question is, how is he “God”?

Jesus is God in that He is the Almighty.

 

[Rapture Bound]

As odd as it may seem, I have come to believe they can.

Well, as odd as it may seem ... I agree with you. I'm very aware that at first glance, a person could easily perceive your statement as heresy, but they must take the time to consider the full scope of your statement.

I really do not think that it is provable one way or the other if a person must believe that Jesus Christ is God in order to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit. In other words, how can a person believe it if they have never even considered the question? It's most probable, in my opinion, that subsequent to regeneration some [or perhaps even most?] people have never put two and two together as to how Jesus could have offered up a sufficient blood sacrifice for the sins of humanity apart from possessing the attributes ascribed to God alone.

Are we to suppose that a person must attain some type of acceptable level concerning the nature of the Holy Trinity before they become candidates for the salvation that Christ has obtained and freely offered to them? Or, should we place our trust in the fact that it is only through the sacrificial, substitutionary, shed blood of Christ that we can obtain/receive full pardon and forgiveness of our sins, that is, it is that alone [faith alone - "Sola Fide"] that 'qualifies us' for a future entrance into Heaven?

 

[Rapture Bound]

Well, as odd as it may seem ... I agree with you. I'm very aware that at first glance, a person could easily perceive your statement as heresy, but they must take the time to consider the full scope of your statement.

I really do not think that it is provable one way or the other if a person must believe that Jesus Christ is God in order to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit. In other words, how can a person believe it if they have never even considered the question? It's most probable, in my opinion, that subsequent to regeneration some [or perhaps even most?] people have never put two and two together as to how Jesus could have offered up a sufficient blood sacrifice for the sins of humanity apart from possessing the attributes ascribed to God alone.

Are we to suppose that a person must attain some type of acceptable level of understanding/knowledge concerning the nature of the Holy Trinity before we become candidates for the salvation that Christ has obtained and freely offered to them? Or, should we place our trust in the fact that it is only through the sacrificial, substitutionary, shed blood of Christ that we can obtain/receive full pardon and forgiveness of our sins, that is, it is that alone [faith alone - "Sola Fide"] that 'qualifies us' for a future entrance into Heaven?

Nothing to add here, I just made a small edit to my post, I simply couldn't figure out any other way to edit my post - without reposting ... obviously, my computer skills are sadly lacking ... sigh.

 

[civic]

Jesus is God in that He is the Almighty.

Amen Revelation 1:8 and the True God 1 John 5:20 and the Alpha and Omega Rev 1 and 22 along with the First and the Last as YHWH declared besides Him there is not other God. Indeed The Son is the Almighty God, God Almighty- the First and the Last.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Or can one deny Jesus is God, oppose His deity and be saved ?

This issue is so very difficult to sort out due to the fact that the deity of Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity are two doctrines that are so very intricately related [similar to the relationship between justification and sanctification]. Here's my thoughts concerning your question :

A distinction should be made between a person who denies and opposes the fact that Jesus is God and a person who simply does not know that Jesus is God - one who has not yet searched out or considered the facts of the matter as revealed in the scriptures. In my opinion, the case is most likely one in which any person who has truly been indwelt by the Holy Spirit will never deny or oppose the fact that Jesus Christ is God.

 

[synergy]

This tells me that you don’t understand what was going on in John 8:38ff.

If you think that about what Dunn (a trinitarian) said then you’re certainly going to think that about what I say. Once again I find myself wondering why you’re asking me to explain something to you.

Attitude. It wasn’t just SHURF.

Are you seriously concuring with Dunn when he says that "The issue is ... the authority and validity of the Son’s revelation of the Father"? Are you siding with Dunn in bringing into question the Son's revelation of the Father?

I will understand if you do not answer me.

 

[Matthias]

Are you seriously concuring with Dunn when he says that "The issue is ... the authority and validity of the Son’s revelation of the Father"? Are you siding with Dunn in bringing into question the Son's revelation of the Father?

I will understand if you do not answer me.

Dunn doesn’t question the Son’s revelation of the Father. Neither do I.

 

[Matthias]

* raises hand *

"I really think Tyndale called Jesus an it."

Count me in.

Oh, but better.

I have actual proof:

​

A PROLOGUE UPON THE GOSPEL OF ST JOHN.​

​

JOHN, what he was, is manifest by the three first evangelists: first, Christ’s apostle, and that one of the chief: then, Christ’s nigh kinsman, and for his singular innocency and softness singularly beloved, and of singular familiarity with Christ, and ever one of the three witnesses of most secret things. The cause of his writing was certain heresies that arose in his time, namely two; of which one denied Christ to be very God, and the other to be very man and to be come in the very flesh and nature of man. Against the which two heresies he wrote both his gospel and also his first epistle; and in the beginning of his gospel saith, that “the Word” or thing “was at the beginning, and was with God, and was also very God;” and that “all things were created by it;” and that “it was also made flesh,” that is to say, became very man; and “he dwelt among us,” saith he, “and we saw his glory.” And in the beginning of his epistle he saith, “We shew you of the thing that was from the beginning, which also we heard, saw with our eyes, and our hands handled.” And again, “We shew you everlasting life; that was with the Father, and appeared to us, and we heard and saw it,” etc. In that he saith that it was from the beginning, and that it was eternal life, and that it was with God, he affirmeth him to be very God. And that he saith, “We heard, saw, and felt,” he witnesseth that he was very man also. John also wrote last, and therefore touched not the story that the other had compiled, but writeth most of faith, and promises, and of the sermons of Christ.​

Please notice this bolded sentence from Tyndale's Prologue to John. ( https://godrules.net/library/tyndale/19tyndale13.htm )

"In that he saith that it was from the beginning, and that it was eternal life, and that it was with God, he affirmeth him to be very God"​

Notice something very interesting about these pronouns—they all clearly have the same referent in the same context. There is not some dramatic change or shift or circumstance where the "it" is no longer being referenced. The "it" is called a "him" concurrently within the exact same context.

Tyndale literally called the man Jesus both "God" and "it."

Need a new appeal to authority somewhere I guess.

On this date in 1536 “… burned at the stake for translating the Bible into English.”

https://x.com/vom_usa/status/1710317437814513774?s=61

 

[civic]

* raises hand *

"I really think Tyndale called Jesus an it."

Count me in.

Oh, but better.

I have actual proof:

​

A PROLOGUE UPON THE GOSPEL OF ST JOHN.​

​

JOHN, what he was, is manifest by the three first evangelists: first, Christ’s apostle, and that one of the chief: then, Christ’s nigh kinsman, and for his singular innocency and softness singularly beloved, and of singular familiarity with Christ, and ever one of the three witnesses of most secret things. The cause of his writing was certain heresies that arose in his time, namely two; of which one denied Christ to be very God, and the other to be very man and to be come in the very flesh and nature of man. Against the which two heresies he wrote both his gospel and also his first epistle; and in the beginning of his gospel saith, that “the Word” or thing “was at the beginning, and was with God, and was also very God;” and that “all things were created by it;” and that “it was also made flesh,” that is to say, became very man; and “he dwelt among us,” saith he, “and we saw his glory.” And in the beginning of his epistle he saith, “We shew you of the thing that was from the beginning, which also we heard, saw with our eyes, and our hands handled.” And again, “We shew you everlasting life; that was with the Father, and appeared to us, and we heard and saw it,” etc. In that he saith that it was from the beginning, and that it was eternal life, and that it was with God, he affirmeth him to be very God. And that he saith, “We heard, saw, and felt,” he witnesseth that he was very man also. John also wrote last, and therefore touched not the story that the other had compiled, but writeth most of faith, and promises, and of the sermons of Christ.​

Please notice this bolded sentence from Tyndale's Prologue to John. ( https://godrules.net/library/tyndale/19tyndale13.htm )

"In that he saith that it was from the beginning, and that it was eternal life, and that it was with God, he affirmeth him to be very God"​

Notice something very interesting about these pronouns—they all clearly have the same referent in the same context. There is not some dramatic change or shift or circumstance where the "it" is no longer being referenced. The "it" is called a "him" concurrently within the exact same context.

Tyndale literally called the man Jesus both "God" and "it."

Need a new appeal to authority somewhere I guess.

Looked like it back fired lol.

 

[Diserner]

On this date in 1536 “… burned at the stake for translating the Bible into English.”

https://x.com/vom_usa/status/1710317437814513774?s=61

He's someone I very much admire and appreciate.

 

[Johann]

A "jesus" who is not YHWH belongs to a gospel that cannot save anyone.

The Lord Jesus Christ – The Bearer of the Divine Name

What makes this truly amazing is that, according to the inspired Christian Greek Scriptures, Jesus bears the very name of Yahweh!

In this article we will look at specific NT examples where the Lord Jesus is identified as Yahweh, yet before we cull through the NT writings the readers need to keep the following point in mind. The Jewish translators of the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible (known as the Septuagint [LXX]) and the inspired NT writers used the Greek word Kyrios (“Lord”) in the place of the Divine name. In fact, one can even say that Kyrios started to function as the Greek synonym or equivalent of God’s covenant name. As we shall see next, Jesus is often called Kyrios in contexts that clearly identify him as Yahweh.

With that said we begin our analysis of the NT writings.


Whoever calls on the Name

According to the prophetic writings the faithful are those who call on Yahweh’s name:

“Extol Yahweh our God; worship at his footstool! Holy is he! Moses and Aaron were among his priests, Samuel also was among those who called on his name. They cried to Yahweh, and he answered them.” Psalm 99:5-6

“I will lift up the cup of salvation and call on the name of Yahweh… I will offer to thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving and call on the name of Yahweh.” Psalm 116:13, 17; cf. 105:1

And yet we are told in the NT that the very first Christians – including the Jewish believers in Jerusalem – would call upon Jesus as Lord in the context of worshiping him:

“Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani'as. The Lord said to him in a vision, ‘Anani'as.’ And he said, ‘Here I am, Lord.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, and he has seen a man named Anani'as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.’ But Anani'as answered, ‘Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to YOUR saints at Jerusalem; and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon YOUR Name.’ But the Lord said to him, ‘Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry MY Name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of MY Name.’ So Anani'as departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, ‘Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.’ … And in the synagogues immediately he proclaimed Jesus, saying, ‘He is the Son of God.’ And all who heard him were amazed, and said, ‘Is not this the man who made havoc in Jerusalem of those who called on THIS Name? And he has come here for this purpose, to bring them bound before the chief priests.’” Acts 9:10-17, 20-21

“To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 1:2-3

The NT further teaches that Christians are those who are saved by confessing Jesus is Lord:

“But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach); because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. The scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame.’ For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him. For, ‘every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.’” Romans 10:8-13

What makes this particular passage rather interesting is that the inspired Apostle references an OT text which speaks of calling on the name of Yahweh to be saved:

“You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I, Yahweh, am your God and there is none else. And my people shall never again be put to shame. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. Even upon the menservants and maidservants in those days, I will pour out my Spirit. And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and terrible day of Yahweh comes. And it shall come to pass that all who call upon the name of Yahweh shall be delivered; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as Yahweh has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom Yahweh calls.” Joel 2:27-32

And applied this to confessing Jesus as Lord! In other words, Jesus is the Yahweh whom everyone must call on in order to be saved!

Correct there @Fred

 

[Johann]

The Cross is the Gospel.

No Cross = No Gospel.


Notice what Paul is not talking about in these verses.
See, if the Trinity was a part of the Gospel, the Paul would preach it.
He would make it very important in his 13 Epistles.
Its not.
-
For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
ASV
For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
AMP
for I made the decision to know nothing [that is, to forego philosophical or theological discussions regarding inconsequential things and opinions while] among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified [and the meaning of His redemptive, substitutionary death and His resurrection].
AMPC
For I resolved to know nothing (to be acquainted with nothing, to make a display of the knowledge of nothing, and to be conscious of nothing) among you except Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and Him crucified.
BRG
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
CSB
I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
CEB
I had made up my mind not to think about anything while I was with you except Jesus Christ, and to preach him as crucified.
CJB
for I had decided that while I was with you I would forget everything except Yeshua the Messiah, and even him only as someone who had been executed on a stake as a criminal.
CEV
In fact, while I was with you, I made up my mind to speak only about Jesus Christ, who had been nailed to a cross.
DARBY
For I did not judge [it well] to know anything among you save Jesus Christ, and *him* crucified.
DLNT
For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ— and this One having been crucified.
DRA
For I judged not myself to know anything among you, but Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
ERV
I decided that while I was with you I would forget about everything except Jesus Christ and his death on the cross.
EHV
For I had no intention of knowing anything among you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

One verse-so who is Messiah?