Thomas... My Lord and my God

[TomL]

What about God being a He when alone and a "we" when with someone else? That's what I was originally talking about and you tried an old switcheroo. Jesus can be bowed to, just as Scripture states, without it being God worshipped. Jesus is never worshipped as God in the Bible. God alone is worshipped in spirit and truth (John 4:23,24) which is not the same thing as physical bowing.

Not at all. I responded to a comment by another poster you had replied to. He affirmed worshippiong Christ. That was what was in my mind.

I will address your remark about Worship showing how Christ is in fact worshipped in scripture


John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.

Matt 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.

Matt 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.

Matt 14:33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”

Luke 24:52 And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Rev 5:12–14 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

Logos provides the following

Christ not only accepted divine worship but also demanded it1. The New Testament provides extensive evidence: the apostles and early disciples worshipped Christ both during his earthly ministry and after his ascension2. Women worshipped him following his resurrection1, and early Christians directed their prayers to Christ, becoming known as “callers upon Christ” before they were even called Christians2.

The theological foundation rests on Christ’s divine nature and authority. One who taught that God alone should be worshipped must himself be God, since he accepted worship1. Christ is presented as an object of divine worship—he whom all angels are commanded to worship and to whom every knee shall bow must be the object of spiritual worship2. This worship extends beyond mere honor; if Christ is to be worshipped as God, then he is to be worshipped with the worship required in the first commandment, which is proper to the only true God alone3.

The practice is eschatologically affirmed as well. Christ will be worshipped when the throne is set in the heavens, with archangels, angels, the four living creatures, and the twenty-four elders falling down to worship him1.

Additional biblical passages supporting Christ’s worship: Philippians 2:9–11 declares that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Hebrews 1:6 commands that all the angels of God worship him. Revelation 5:11–14 depicts heavenly worship where the Lamb receives power, riches, wisdom, might, honor, glory, and blessing alongside the one who sits on the throne.

1. 1
   R. E. Neighbour, Sermons and Bible Studies (WORDsearch, 2000), 50–51.
2. 2
   David B. Ford, “Scriptural Evidence of the Deity of Christ,” Bibliotheca Sacra (1860), 563–565.
3. 3
   John Owen, The Works of John Owen, ed. William H. Goold (Edinburgh: T&T Clark, n.d.), 12:384–385.

 

[TomL]

Are these the same Jews saying that Jesus has a devil and that he's only been around less than 50 years that also fell down to the ground because they knew Jesus was God?

cc @Runningman @praise_yeshua

Were you unwilling to address the issue which was raised?


The point here was the article you posted makes Jesus deceptive in his words

John 8:52–58 (NASB 95) — 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’ 53 Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; 55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

He states Abraham pastly rejoiced to see his day

He saw it (past) and was glad

The Jews question Christ's age and having seen Abraham.

Christ notes he preceded Abraham's birth

Having him state he will see Abraham in the future does not address

The words of Christ

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day,
nor the Jews question

You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?

That future malarky you posted is just that malarky.

regarding the identity of those Jews wether any ever converted we are not told

 

[TomL]

There you go again. You continue to post Colossians 1:16. How many times do I have to respond to that? Don't you read what I say?

Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colossians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.

So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colossians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.

It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.

Why is it you ignore other verses

There you go again denying scripture

Christ is presented in scripture as a creator. Multiple verses state he created the world

Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

This you did not address

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

This you did not address

1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

This you did not address
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands;

This you did not address

Col 1:15–17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

How often will you deny the very word of God?

The creator in John 1:1 was involved in all creation; nothing was created apart from him thus the creator in John 1 is Jesus Christ.

This you did not address

Or you can just read the text

John 1:1–18 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

The word was light and became flesh. John testified as to this light as Jesus Christ

His glory was seen as the only begotten of the Father, and he pre-existed becoming flesh.

The word was full of grace and truth - grace and truth realized through Jesus Christ

Thus the word is clearly identified as Jesus Christ

or you can just read

Revelation 19:11–13 (NASB 95) — 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

This you did not address

But your view is clearly contrary to much of scripture, which you try to cover up by calling hilarious what you cannot rebut.

further Christ being the image of God, the radiance of his Glory and the exact reprentation of God's nature

Col 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
2 Cor 4:4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Heb 1:3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
The same yesterday , today and tomorrow
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
John 17:5Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Thus Christ the Word was a personal being, as a non personal thing is not the image of God nor the exact representation of his nature.

This you did not address

So, as noted previously, you are doubly wrong.

Regarding Col 1:15 It is not stated all things are limited to thrones, dominions, Rulers or authorities

For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Will you argue Christ created all authorities, rulers in the heavens?

In any case the verse shows He was a person before anything which was created

 

[synergy]

That's a stumper right there. I wouldn't want to answer that question if I was a trinitarian. Let's see what they say.

When Jesus said “I am” (ἐγώ εἰμι) in John 18:5–6, the temple soldiers fell back not because the phrase always produces a physical reaction, but because in that moment Jesus briefly manifested divine power in the context of being voluntarily arrested, not teaching. In other settings (such as John 4:26 to the Samaritan woman, or John 8:58 to the crowds) Jesus was revealing His identity for faith, not exercising power for arrest, so there was no reason for a physical effect. But in Gethsemane, the crowd came aggressively to seize Him; when Jesus declared “I am,” He voluntarily allowed a flash of His divine sovereign power to show that He is not taken by force, but surrenders His life willingly (John 10:18). Thus, the different responses reflect the different purposes of His self-revelation—sometimes for instruction, sometimes for saving faith, and in John 18, as a demonstration of His divine supremacy during His arrest.

Unitarianism gets stumped again when one reads the Bible.

 

[FreeInChrist]

What I know for sure is that Jesus saying "I am" or "I am before anyone else" is not a teaching on the trinity. A teaching... a whole paragraph or chapter. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it.

So because not evert sentence in the OT or NT can be counted on to either explain the Trinity or to speak for the Trinity...
you believe that the Trinity is not.??????????

What in the world does Jesus saying I am have to do with the Trinity...? Where there is proof that Jesus is God, or says things that say He is... what is it about you who has to bring a third person into the mix?

What you say is actually, not quite accurate on either count.

Old Testament .....The Jewish Scriptures repeatedly speak of plurality within the one God in ways that the earliest Christians (who were almost all Jews) immediately recognized as pointing to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit:

Genesis 1:26 “Let us make man in our image” (plural pronouns for the one God)

Isaiah 48:16 “And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me” (the Speaker is Yahweh; see v. 12)

Proverbs 30:4 – “Who has ascended to heaven and come down? … What is His name, and what is His Son’s name?”

Psalm 110:1 – “The LORD said to my Lord…” (quoted by Jesus in Matt 22:41-46 to prove the Messiah is more than a mere man)

The threefold repetition of holiness in Isaiah 6:3, reflected in the threefold “Holy” in Revelation 4:8

The Angel of the LORD who is distinct from God yet bears the divine name, accepts worship, and says “I am the God of Abraham” (Exodus 3, Judges 13, etc.)

IMPORTANT> enough that this is something you should study to fix it in your mind.

Second-Temple Jews wrote about the “two powers in heaven,” the Memra (Word), and the Spirit as quasi-distinct persons (see Philo, the Targums, and later rabbinic complaints about “two powers” heresy). So the raw materials were there; the rabbis later rejected the idea only after Christians used these texts.

Are you still with me????????????????

New Testament The New Testament doesn’t use the later word “Trinity,” but it constantly presents one God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) in a way that only makes sense if all three are fully divine:

Matthew 28:19 “baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (one “name” = one God, yet three distinct persons) This was Jesus speaking to His diciples giving them the Great Commission to go and make disciples of all nations. This command includes baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

2 Corinthians 13:14 “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all” (a threefold benediction treating all three as divine)

John 1:1 “the Word was with God and the Word was God”

John 10:30 “I and the Father are one” (Jesus claims unity of essence; the Jews pick up stones for blasphemy, v. 33)

Thomas calls the risen Jesus “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28) and is not corrected

Hebrews 1:8 God the Father says of the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever”

Acts 5:3-4 – Lying to the Holy Spirit = lying to God

The earliest Christians (all Jews) worshipped Jesus as God within 5–10 years of the resurrection (Phil 2:6-11; the Carmen Christi hymn is pre-Pauline). That only happens if they believed the Old Testament already pointed to a complex unity in God and that Jesus fulfilled it.


So the doctrine of the Trinity is the early church’s explanation of data that is clearly present in both Testaments. It’s not a 4th-century invention; Nicea and Constantinople simply defended what Matthew, John, Paul, and the writer to the Hebrews already assumed.

 

[Doug Brents]

What I know for sure is that Jesus saying "I am" or "I am before anyone else" is not a teaching on the trinity. A teaching... a whole paragraph or chapter.

A "teaching" does not require a whole paragraph or chapter. A teaching can be a short as, "do not commit adultery". The concept that Jesus is God and the Father is also God does not require whole paragraphs or chapters. It requires nothing more than understanding and accepting that Jesus is the Creator God, fully equal to and one with the Father.

The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament

That is correct. There is no evidence in the OT that God is not just the Father. But that is irrelevant. Just because we didn't recognize God as being three in one before doesn't mean that He wasn't. When you look at a block of coal, you don't need to recognize that there are billions of individual carbon atoms that make up that little chip of coal. But your lack of knowledge about the atoms doesn't change the fact that they exist.

nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it.

There is massive evidence in the NT Scripture that Jesus is God. He claimed it, and His followers said it several times. The fact that you can't see it, and won't accept it, doesn't change that fact.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Are these the same Jews saying that Jesus has a devil and that he's only been around less than 50 years that also fell down to the ground because they knew Jesus was God?

cc @Runningman @praise_yeshua

I don't understand your question. Elaborate.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Pretending to be someone else? Did I not say this was written by a friend of mine? Here look at it again...

Written by one of my classmates that I went to school with...​

You made referenced the argument as being valid in your own debate with everyone here. Don't be coy.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Wrong buddy. I've never been nor ever will be a JW. Go to hell. If you don't want to waste your time we can put one another on ignore if the option exist.

Not going and you have nothing to do with where I'm going. You're referencing their teachings. Do you think you're unique?

 

[Durg]

I haven't said that. Don't treat me like anyone else.

So how do you know God?

You're just a number big guy. It's none of your business how I know God.

 

[civic]

The Trinitarian experts will tell you that it's a mystery and that we really cannot fully understand it. I believe trinity is bogus. It's nonsense to claim Jesus is God but that Jesus is not God. Pure nonsense.

Thats a fallacious statement.

Jesus is God and not God is not a trinitarian belief.

Jesus is both God and man is our belief.

We don't say Jesus is not man or Jesus is not God. Jesus is God and Jesus is man.

The Incarnation teaches that nothing has changed in His Divine Nature. He remains fully God in every way sharing the same Divine Attributes/Character as the Father.

The problem on most forums is misrepresenting with the other side actually believes. This happens on both sides of the debate.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Peterlag]

You made referenced the argument as being valid in your own debate with everyone here. Don't be coy.

Well, if I can't post biblical data from others. Then I don't want to see any from you. And coy I have never been. I shoot straight which is what you don't like.

 

[Peterlag]

I don't understand your question. Elaborate.

Don't be coy.

 

[Peterlag]

A "teaching" does not require a whole paragraph or chapter. A teaching can be a short as, "do not commit adultery". The concept that Jesus is God and the Father is also God does not require whole paragraphs or chapters. It requires nothing more than understanding and accepting that Jesus is the Creator God, fully equal to and one with the Father.

That is correct. There is no evidence in the OT that God is not just the Father. But that is irrelevant. Just because we didn't recognize God as being three in one before doesn't mean that He wasn't. When you look at a block of coal, you don't need to recognize that there are billions of individual carbon atoms that make up that little chip of coal. But your lack of knowledge about the atoms doesn't change the fact that they exist.

There is massive evidence in the NT Scripture that Jesus is God. He claimed it, and His followers said it several times. The fact that you can't see it, and won't accept it, doesn't change that fact.

I can find whole pages in the Old Testament on how and why and who did commit adultery. And yet there's no teaching on the trinity anywhere in the entire Bible.

 

[Peterlag]

So because not evert sentence in the OT or NT can be counted on to either explain the Trinity or to speak for the Trinity...
you believe that the Trinity is not.??????????

What in the world does Jesus saying I am have to do with the Trinity...? Where there is proof that Jesus is God, or says things that say He is... what is it about you who has to bring a third person into the mix?

What you say is actually, not quite accurate on either count.

Old Testament .....The Jewish Scriptures repeatedly speak of plurality within the one God in ways that the earliest Christians (who were almost all Jews) immediately recognized as pointing to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit:

Genesis 1:26 “Let us make man in our image” (plural pronouns for the one God)

Isaiah 48:16 “And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me” (the Speaker is Yahweh; see v. 12)

Proverbs 30:4 – “Who has ascended to heaven and come down? … What is His name, and what is His Son’s name?”

Psalm 110:1 – “The LORD said to my Lord…” (quoted by Jesus in Matt 22:41-46 to prove the Messiah is more than a mere man)

The threefold repetition of holiness in Isaiah 6:3, reflected in the threefold “Holy” in Revelation 4:8

The Angel of the LORD who is distinct from God yet bears the divine name, accepts worship, and says “I am the God of Abraham” (Exodus 3, Judges 13, etc.)

IMPORTANT> enough that this is something you should study to fix it in your mind.

Second-Temple Jews wrote about the “two powers in heaven,” the Memra (Word), and the Spirit as quasi-distinct persons (see Philo, the Targums, and later rabbinic complaints about “two powers” heresy). So the raw materials were there; the rabbis later rejected the idea only after Christians used these texts.

Are you still with me????????????????

New Testament The New Testament doesn’t use the later word “Trinity,” but it constantly presents one God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) in a way that only makes sense if all three are fully divine:

Matthew 28:19 “baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (one “name” = one God, yet three distinct persons) This was Jesus speaking to His diciples giving them the Great Commission to go and make disciples of all nations. This command includes baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

2 Corinthians 13:14 “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all” (a threefold benediction treating all three as divine)

John 1:1 “the Word was with God and the Word was God”

John 10:30 “I and the Father are one” (Jesus claims unity of essence; the Jews pick up stones for blasphemy, v. 33)

Thomas calls the risen Jesus “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28) and is not corrected

Hebrews 1:8 God the Father says of the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever”

Acts 5:3-4 – Lying to the Holy Spirit = lying to God

The earliest Christians (all Jews) worshipped Jesus as God within 5–10 years of the resurrection (Phil 2:6-11; the Carmen Christi hymn is pre-Pauline). That only happens if they believed the Old Testament already pointed to a complex unity in God and that Jesus fulfilled it.


So the doctrine of the Trinity is the early church’s explanation of data that is clearly present in both Testaments. It’s not a 4th-century invention; Nicea and Constantinople simply defended what Matthew, John, Paul, and the writer to the Hebrews already assumed.

The word "elohim" in Genesis 1:1 does not prove that Jesus is God or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The word "elohim" is indeed grammatically plural, but in Hebrew it often functions as a singular title, especially when referring to the one true God. This is called a plural of majesty, and not a numerical plural of persons. The verb created "bara" is singular, showing that only one acted. So while "elohim" can function like "police" sometimes singular and sometimes plural the verb form makes it clear: a single God created. The one true God acted alone through His own spiritual body often referred to as His "logos" and not through multiple divine persons. There is no trinity here and no conversation between separate minds. Just one God expressing Himself. Here's how a friend of mine wrote it... The word "elohim" is always found in the plural form and is often called a uniplural noun. A uniplural noun is a word that appears in the plural form, but is used for singular and plural subjects alike. Words like “deer” and “fish” are examples of uniplural nouns in English. The word "elohim" as with many Hebrew words carries more than one definition. When it's being used in a plural sense, it refers to “gods” or “men with authority.” When it's used in its singular sense, it can refer to “God” or “a god” or “a man with authority, such as a judge.”

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

 

[Peterlag]

Why is it you ignore other verses

There you go again denying scripture

Christ is presented in scripture as a creator. Multiple verses state he created the world

Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

This you did not address

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

This you did not address

1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

This you did not address
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands;

This you did not address

Col 1:15–17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

How often will you deny the very word of God?

The creator in John 1:1 was involved in all creation; nothing was created apart from him thus the creator in John 1 is Jesus Christ.

This you did not address

Or you can just read the text

John 1:1–18 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

The word was light and became flesh. John testified as to this light as Jesus Christ

His glory was seen as the only begotten of the Father, and he pre-existed becoming flesh.

The word was full of grace and truth - grace and truth realized through Jesus Christ

Thus the word is clearly identified as Jesus Christ

or you can just read

Revelation 19:11–13 (NASB 95) — 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

This you did not address

But your view is clearly contrary to much of scripture, which you try to cover up by calling hilarious what you cannot rebut.

further Christ being the image of God, the radiance of his Glory and the exact reprentation of God's nature

Col 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
2 Cor 4:4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Heb 1:3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
The same yesterday , today and tomorrow
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
John 17:5Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Thus Christ the Word was a personal being, as a non personal thing is not the image of God nor the exact representation of his nature.

This you did not address

So, as noted previously, you are doubly wrong.

Regarding Col 1:15 It is not stated all things are limited to thrones, dominions, Rulers or authorities

For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Will you argue Christ created all authorities, rulers in the heavens?

In any case the verse shows He was a person before anything which was created

Ignore Scripture? You have more than 30 verses just in this your last post to me. What I see from you is a rhetorical tactic being deployed here known as the Gish Gallop. It's a debate strategy where one side fires off a massive amount of arguments, points, and claims all in one post with the clear intent to overwhelm and exhaust anyone trying to respond. The purpose of the Gish Gallop is to flood the conversation with so many points that nobody can reasonably address them all, creating the false impression that their arguments are insurmountable or that the other side has no answers.

 

[civic]

I can find whole pages in the Old Testament on how and why and who did commit adultery. And yet there's no teaching on the trinity anywhere in the entire Bible.

just because the word trinity is not mentioned does not mean the concept is not found in the bible. thats an argument from silence fallacy and exact word fallacy

thats like me saying since the bible never mentions unitarian or christadelphian or jehovah witness then that are not true.

you would not accept that as a valid argument would you ?

 

[Peterlag]

Were you unwilling to address the issue which was raised?


The point here was the article you posted makes Jesus deceptive in his words

John 8:52–58 (NASB 95) — 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’ 53 Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; 55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

He states Abraham pastly rejoiced to see his day

He saw it (past) and was glad

The Jews question Christ's age and having seen Abraham.

Christ notes he preceded Abraham's birth

Having him state he will see Abraham in the future does not address

The words of Christ

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day,
nor the Jews question

You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?

That future malarky you posted is just that malarky.

regarding the identity of those Jews wether any ever converted we are not told

I did comment on it. Here I will post again what I wrote concerning John 8:58...

Are these the same Jews saying that Jesus has a devil and that he's only been around less than 50 years that also fell down to the ground because they knew Jesus was God?

That's what praise_yeshua said. That the Jews knew Jesus was God which is why they stepped backwards and fell to the ground.

 

[Doug Brents]

I can find whole pages in the Old Testament on how and why and who did commit adultery.

Whole pages on people breaking the commandment, but you don't need whole pages to give the commandment. Just one sentence. That is all that is needed to have a "teaching", a concept, an idea, etc.

And yet there's no teaching on the trinity anywhere in the entire Bible.

You are a blind, wannabe guide, serving deleted by trying to defame the name of Jesus. The fact that you refuse to see what is written plainly in Scripture shames you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You're just a number big guy. It's none of your business how I know God.

I thought you might explain how you "discern" God. Even Elijah got it wrong. Do you remember when he ran from that evil queen that sought to kill him?