Doug Brents
Active Member
What responses you do give are fictitious. But the majority of my points (at least) are ignored by you.
Your language demonstrates that you are losing not only your cool, but the battle as well.
Thomas... My Lord and my God
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Peterlag
Active Member
I'm okay. We are just on two different worlds. You believe what I call the trinity verses and you believe they are real verses not believed by me.
It is a little curious what you are addressing Here
You post a passage where a person is identified as not being Yahweh
How does that address the following?
Yahweh sends Yahweh
Zechariah 2:8–13 (LEB) — 8 For thus said Yahweh of hosts, after glory he sent me against the nations plundering you: Truly, the one touching you is touching the apple of his eye. 9 “Yes, look! I am going to wave my hand against them, and they will become plunder for their servants, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me. 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for look, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares Yahweh. 11 “Many nations will join themselves to Yahweh on that day, and they will be my people, and I will dwell in your midst. And you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me to you. 12 And Yahweh will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and he will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all people, before Yahweh, for he is roused from his holy dwelling.”
Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the 3rd person
Exodus 19:20–25 (LEB) — 20 And Yahweh went down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain, and Yahweh called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21 And Yahweh said to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, lest they break through to Yahweh to see and many from them fall. 22 And even the priests who come near Yahweh must consecrate themselves, lest Yahweh break out against them.” 23 And Moses said to Yahweh, “The people are not able to go up to Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, saying, ‘Set limits around the mountain and consecrate it.’ ” 24 And Yahweh said to him, “Go, go down, and come up, you and Aaron with you and the priests, but the people must not break through to go up to Yahweh, lest he break out against them.” 25 And Moses went down to the people, and he told them.
Genesis 19:24 (UASV) — 24 Then Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven,
Jehovah (yahweh) who was on earth rained down fire from Jehovah (yahweh) in heaven
Jehovah God will make the following strong in Jehovah not in himself refering to the Jehovah he was making them strong in as those who walk in his name
Zechariah 10:6–12 (UASV) — 6 “I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph. I will bring them back because I have compassion on them, and they shall be as though I had not rejected them, for I am Jehovah their God and I will answer them. 7 Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior, and their hearts shall rejoice as if from wine. Their sons shall see it and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in Jehovah. 8 “I will whistle for them and gather them in, for I have redeemed them, and they shall be as numerous as they were before. 9 Though I sow them among the nations, yet in far countries they shall remember me, and with their sons they shall live and return. 10 I will bring them back from the land of Egypt, and gather them from Assyria, and I will bring them to the land of Gilead and to Lebanon, until there is no room for them. 11 And he shall pass through the sea of distress and strike down the waves of the sea, and all the depths of the Nile shall dry up. The pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the scepter of Egypt shall depart. 12 I will make them strong in Jehovah, and they shall walk in his name,” declares Jehovah.
Exodus 19:10–25 (NASB95) — 10 The Lord also said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments; 11 and let them be ready for the third day, for on the third day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. 12 “You shall set bounds for the people all around, saying, ‘Beware that you do not go up on the mountain or touch the border of it; whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. 13 ‘No hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot through; whether beast or man, he shall not live.’ When the ram’s horn sounds a long blast, they shall come up to the mountain.” 14 So Moses went down from the mountain to the people and consecrated the people, and they washed their garments. 15 He said to the people, “Be ready for the third day; do not go near a woman.” 16 So it came about on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunder and lightning flashes and a thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked violently. 19 When the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him with thunder. 20 The Lord came down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, so that they do not break through to the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish. 22 “Also let the priests who come near to the Lord consecrate themselves, or else the Lord will break out against them.” 23 Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up to Mount Sinai, for You warned us, saying, ‘Set bounds about the mountain and consecrate it.’ ” 24 Then the Lord said to him, “Go down and come up again, you and Aaron with you; but do not let the priests and the people break through to come up to the Lord, or He will break forth upon them.” 25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.
Do you see anywhere that Haggai is identified as being God or yahweh or that there is a obvious reference to more than one Yahweh
It is quite interesting you think such addresses how the Angel of the lord identifies himself as God or Yahweh. None you mention make any such claim
Or that we have have an example of Yahweh being named and speaks also of Yahweh in multiple personhoods i.e, first and third persons
Isaiah 48:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 “Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
He who is speaking to Jacob defines himself thusly
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens;
but he is not God the father as he is sent according
And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
Now let see who is identified as the first and the last
Revelation 2:8 (NASB 95) — 8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:
Revelation 22:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. 16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
Well lets see
John 1:1–17 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
The word is called God
The word is stated to be with God
The word was in the beginning
All things came into being through him the Word
Apart from him the word nothing came into being
He is clearly defined as becoming flesh that is Jesus Christ
civic
Active Member
Amen brother preach it from the rooftops !!!!!
Doug Brents
Active Member
The fact that you admit you don't believe Scripture tells me you have no business in a Christian debate forum. You don't believe in the God of Scripture or in His revealed Word. You are unworthy.
I try to do my best.
Doesn't it just sound a little strange to you that there are so many verses in scripture pointing to Jesus as God.
but compare
Revelation 1:6–8 (NASB 95) — 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
with
Rev 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Rev 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
The immediate text clearly tells us that it was Jesus who was pierced and who is Coming in the clouds. This person coming in the clouds is God(Jesus-the Son of Man),
Peterlag
Active Member
This is probably another reason why you say I don't respond. I don't go in the book of Revelation. The book of Revelation does not teach that Jesus is God or even deal with Christianity. It's a book written in parables and figures of speech based on the customs and culture of Israel that deal with what will concern Israel in the future.
Peterlag
Active Member
Another reason why I may not respond to you is because you twist what is said and pull my words out of context and I believe you handle the Bible the same way. I did not say I don't believe the Bible. I said you don't believe they are verses believed by me. Again, you believe that they are not believed by me. Not that I don't believe. Do you see why I probably sometimes don't respond? Because you are not honest. Here's an example of how you twist and lie. Below is the complete sentence that I wrote that you twisted.
You believe what I call the trinity verses and you believe they are real verses not believed by me.
cc: @Runningman
Well the result is you ignore
Revelation 1:6–8 (NASB 95) — 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
with
Rev 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Rev 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
The immediate text clearly tells us that it was Jesus who was pierced and who is Coming in the clouds. This person coming in the clouds is God, the almighty that is Lord Jesus.
Peterlag
Active Member
I don't ignore. I don't know enough about the book to discuss it and neither do you. You think it's a book addressed to Christians and it's not. It's mostly all about Isreal.
it would not matter to whom Revelation speaks, it still shows Jesus as God.
Your response indeed shows your ignorance about Revelation.
Runningman
Active Member
Now that we have debunked the trinity, I want to hear from every trinitarian on this board. Explain this away, if you can. @TomL already took a swing, missed, got refuted, and kept copying and pasting the same replies expecting a different result.
Nothing in the Bible says the angel of the LORD is YHWH Himself, nor are there two YHWHs, nor any proof the angel is a pre-incarnate Jesus.
The Bible distinguishes God and the angel, messenger, voice, presence, etc.
The angel confronts Balaam and they continue speaking to one another, but the angel is never identified as God because that isn't what the writers believed. They believed the angel spoke God's message to Balaam, not that the angel is God.
Below is proof that the angel of the LORD can be a human prophet speaking the message of the LORD, but clearly isn't the LORD:
Notice carefully how angels can have the authority of God ("My Name is in him") without the angel being identified as God. As you can see, as well, God's angel goes before them, not God goes before them.
In case you don't believe that having God's name does not make someone God, the same thing about God's name is said of the Israelites. The name of God is upon the Israelites but we know the Israelites are not God:
Scripture explicitly states no one has ever seen God (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12) and Scripture cannot be broken. Therefore the "seeing God" statements cannot mean they saw YHWH's real face without direct contradiction of the Bible. That's because there are two different types of "seeing" in the Bible.
Exodus 33:11 says Moses speak with God "face to face" but then God says "you cannot see My face" in Exodus 33:20. There can also be figures of speech introduced to avoid contradiction. "Face to face" is just a figure of speech for direct communication. How do I know? Because in Deuteronomy 5:4 says "LORD spoke with you face to face out of the fire" yet Deuteronomy 4:12 says "And the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of the words but saw no form; there was only a voice." Make sense now?
Hagar, Jacob, and Moses saw God's representative, not God Himself:
Then there is Jacob wrestling with an angel:
God makes your theory a Biblical impossibility, stating that the angel will go before him, but that He Himself will not go with him:
There is not more than one YHWH in the Bible. Genesis 19:24 says "the LORD rained down sulfur and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens." Not because there are two YHWHs because because the idea of X from X refers to the origin.
How do I know this? Because there were two angels on earth in Sodom while YHWH had said it came from YHWH in heaven.
Solomon sat on the throne of YHWH. 1 Chronicles 29:23 says "So Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD..." Solomon isn't YHWH, but Solomon had YHWH's authority.
The angel of the LORD speaks to the LORD and vice versa. There is a speaker, a listener, not two YHWH's, not the same individual having a conversation with themselves.
Nothing in the Bible says the angel of the LORD is YHWH Himself, nor are there two YHWHs, nor any proof the angel is a pre-incarnate Jesus.
The Bible distinguishes God and the angel, messenger, voice, presence, etc.
The angel confronts Balaam and they continue speaking to one another, but the angel is never identified as God because that isn't what the writers believed. They believed the angel spoke God's message to Balaam, not that the angel is God.
Numbers 22
22Then God’s anger was kindled because Balaam was going along, and the angel of the LORD stood in the road to oppose him. Balaam was riding his donkey, and his two servants were with him.
38“See, I have come to you,” Balaam replied, “but can I say just anything? I must speak only the word that God puts in my mouth.”
Below is proof that the angel of the LORD can be a human prophet speaking the message of the LORD, but clearly isn't the LORD:
Haggai 1
13Haggai, the messenger of the LORD, delivered the message of the LORD to the people: “I am with you,” declares the LORD.
Notice carefully how angels can have the authority of God ("My Name is in him") without the angel being identified as God. As you can see, as well, God's angel goes before them, not God goes before them.
Exodus 23
20Behold, I am sending an angel before you to protect you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21Pay attention to him and listen to his voice; do not defy him, for he will not forgive rebellion, since My Name is in him.
22But if you will listen carefully to his voice and do everything I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and a foe to your foes. 23For My angel will go before you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites, and I will annihilate them.
In case you don't believe that having God's name does not make someone God, the same thing about God's name is said of the Israelites. The name of God is upon the Israelites but we know the Israelites are not God:
Numbers 6
27So they shall put My name on the Israelites, and I will bless them.”
Scripture explicitly states no one has ever seen God (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12) and Scripture cannot be broken. Therefore the "seeing God" statements cannot mean they saw YHWH's real face without direct contradiction of the Bible. That's because there are two different types of "seeing" in the Bible.
Exodus 33:11 says Moses speak with God "face to face" but then God says "you cannot see My face" in Exodus 33:20. There can also be figures of speech introduced to avoid contradiction. "Face to face" is just a figure of speech for direct communication. How do I know? Because in Deuteronomy 5:4 says "LORD spoke with you face to face out of the fire" yet Deuteronomy 4:12 says "And the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of the words but saw no form; there was only a voice." Make sense now?
Hagar, Jacob, and Moses saw God's representative, not God Himself:
Genesis 16:13 says “You are the God who sees me, Here I have seen the One who sees me!” which was Hagar's interpretation, but the narrator keeps the distinction between God and the angel in Genesis 16:7, 9, 10, and 11 saying it was the angel of the LORD instead of God Himself.
Then there is Jacob wrestling with an angel:
Genesis 32:24 - Jacob wrestled with a man
Hosea 12:3 - Jacob wrestled with an angel
Hosea 12:4 plainly states Jacob wrestled with an angel.
God makes your theory a Biblical impossibility, stating that the angel will go before him, but that He Himself will not go with him:
Exodus 33
2And I will send an angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. 3Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people; otherwise, I might destroy you on the way.”
There is not more than one YHWH in the Bible. Genesis 19:24 says "the LORD rained down sulfur and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens." Not because there are two YHWHs because because the idea of X from X refers to the origin.
How do I know this? Because there were two angels on earth in Sodom while YHWH had said it came from YHWH in heaven.
Genesis 19
1Now the two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When Lot saw them, he got up to meet them, bowed facedown,
15At daybreak the angels hurried Lot along, saying, “Get up! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away in the punishment of the city.”
Solomon sat on the throne of YHWH. 1 Chronicles 29:23 says "So Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD..." Solomon isn't YHWH, but Solomon had YHWH's authority.
The angel of the LORD speaks to the LORD and vice versa. There is a speaker, a listener, not two YHWH's, not the same individual having a conversation with themselves.
Zechariah 1
12Then the angel of the LORD said, “How long, O LORD of Hosts, will You withhold mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been angry these seventy years?”
13So the LORD spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who was speaking with me.
14Then the angel who was speaking with me said, “Proclaim this word: This is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘I am very jealous for Jerusalem and Zion,
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dwight92070
Active Member
"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down my life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again." John 10:17-18
What do you know? I guess Jesus DID raise Himself from the dead. Huh. I guess He IS God.
What do you know? I guess Jesus DID raise Himself from the dead. Huh. I guess He IS God.
Exodus 7:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. NIV
These words are addressed to Moses, Jesus has done so by his Father's Direction so much more than Moses, so isn't it appropriate for Thomas to answer and say to him, “My Lord, and my God.” John 20:28
Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. NIV
These words are addressed to Moses, Jesus has done so by his Father's Direction so much more than Moses, so isn't it appropriate for Thomas to answer and say to him, “My Lord, and my God.” John 20:28
dwight92070
Active Member
Obviously you stole that from a Trinitarian, pretending that you are the first kind. But every one here knows that Trinitarians are the first kind. So where does that leave you?
dwight92070
Active Member
Since He is God - yeah.
dwight92070
Active Member
It shows his ignorance about the whole Bible. EVERY book in the Bible is written to Christians. Before Christ came, the Old Testament was written to the remnant of Israel, but today believing Christians and believing Jews, which comprise "The Israel of God", are the body of Christ, to whom the whole Bible is addressed.
Runningman
Active Member
I am the kind who reads the Bible to seek the truth. The truth is more important than what people want the truth to be.
