civic
Active Member
Peter lets not call what each other believes "doctrine of devils". thanks
Thomas... My Lord and my God
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Runningman
Active Member
So it seems your argument is based on names, titles, and attributes. What's your work around for Jesus not ever being called YHWH, the I AM, the Lord of hosts, the Creator, Lord God Almighty, the only true God and is visible while the only God is invisible? Along with about about 2 dozen names and titles Jesus doesn't share with God and Jesus lacking the divine attributes of God, I really don't know how you can write so much and then just to have your house of cards knocked down by a gentle breeze.
Runningman
Active Member
If you search for "doctrines of devils" on this forum, it's pretty clear that there are others using this Biblical term repeatedly and often. I would also add, it is not just Peter. So can you define what a "doctrine of devils" is and why people shouldn't use it if Paul used it?
I understand that it doesn't feel good to be on the receiving end of such a term because I also have taken offense when trinitarians have stated the Father being the only true God is a doctrine of devils, despite the Bible saying He is the only true God. That's offensive, but I don't take any of this in on a personal level because I am used to people arguing about the Bible, hurling insults, etc. It's kind of like this on every forum, but it would be nice to have it toned down a bit regardless of who started it and how strongly we may disagree with each other.
However, it genuinely feels like I am just defending what the Bible says and I haven't had to do that except for with atheists before, who disagree with literally every last dot of what the Bible says. So it would be nice to see some amens sometimes, if at all possible, unless people just genuinely disagree with Scripture. It would also be nice to get an idea of who here is a Christian and who is not as that would help with outreach and just better understanding their perspective.
civic
Active Member
It’s so we don’t have a mudslinging contest instead of discussing scripture and defending our beliefs. Other forum ban people for it. I know as I have been banned.
Now if anyone wants to discuss it in the controversial section we can and discuss its meaning. I’m all for that minus calling those we disagree with believing in doctrines of demons
civic
Active Member
I’m not aware of any members who are agnostics or atheists. I think everyone identifies themselves as “ Christian’s “. Of course there are many different views on what that actually means but the majority of membership would claim to be a follower of Christ hence a Christian.
I have been a member on other forums where there are lots of atheists. But they are limited to the atheist forum
Runningman
Active Member
Nothing in the Bible says the angel of the LORD is YHWH Himself, nor are there two YHWHs, nor any proof the angel is a pre-incarnate Jesus.
The Bible distinguishes God and the angel, messenger, voice, presence, etc.
The angel confronts Balaam and they continue speaking to one another, but the angel is never identified as God because that isn't what the writers believed. They believed the angel spoke God's message to Balaam, not that the angel is God.
Numbers 22
22Then God’s anger was kindled because Balaam was going along, and the angel of the LORD stood in the road to oppose him. Balaam was riding his donkey, and his two servants were with him.
38“See, I have come to you,” Balaam replied, “but can I say just anything? I must speak only the word that God puts in my mouth.”
Below is proof that the angel of the LORD can be a human prophet speaking the message of the LORD, but clearly isn't the LORD:
Haggai 1
13Haggai, the messenger of the LORD, delivered the message of the LORD to the people: “I am with you,” declares the LORD.
Notice carefully how angels can have the authority of God ("My Name is in him") without the angel being identified as God. As you can see, as well, God's angel goes before them, not God goes before them.
Exodus 23
20Behold, I am sending an angel before you to protect you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21Pay attention to him and listen to his voice; do not defy him, for he will not forgive rebellion, since My Name is in him.
22But if you will listen carefully to his voice and do everything I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and a foe to your foes. 23For My angel will go before you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites, and I will annihilate them.
In case you don't believe that having God's name does not make someone God, the same thing about God's name is said of the Israelites. The name of God is upon the Israelites but we know the Israelites are not God:
Numbers 6
27So they shall put My name on the Israelites, and I will bless them.”
Scripture explicitly states no one has ever seen God (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12) and Scripture cannot be broken. Therefore the "seeing God" statements cannot mean they saw YHWH's real face without direct contradiction of the Bible. That's because there are two different types of "seeing" in the Bible.
Exodus 33:11 says Moses speak with God "face to face" but then God says "you cannot see My face" in Exodus 33:20. There can also be figures of speech introduced to avoid contradiction. "Face to face" is just a figure of speech for direct communication. How do I know? Because in Deuteronomy 5:4 says "LORD spoke with you face to face out of the fire" yet Deuteronomy 4:12 says "And the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of the words but saw no form; there was only a voice." Make sense now?
Hagar, Jacob, and Moses saw God's representative, not God Himself:
Genesis 16:13 says “You are the God who sees me, Here I have seen the One who sees me!” which was Hagar's interpretation, but the narrator keeps the distinction between God and the angel in Genesis 16:7, 9, 10, and 11 saying it was the angel of the LORD instead of God Himself.
Then there is Jacob wrestling with an angel:
Genesis 32:24 - Jacob wrestled with a man
Hosea 12:3 - Jacob wrestled with an angel
Hosea 12:4 plainly states Jacob wrestled with an angel.
God makes your theory a Biblical impossibility, stating that the angel will go before him, but that He Himself will not go with him:
Exodus 33
2And I will send an angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. 3Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people; otherwise, I might destroy you on the way.”
There is not more than one YHWH in the Bible. Genesis 19:24 says "the LORD rained down sulfur and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens." Not because there are two YHWHs because because the idea of X from X refers to the origin.
How do I know this? Because there were two angels on earth in Sodom while YHWH had said it came from YHWH in heaven.
Genesis 19
1Now the two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When Lot saw them, he got up to meet them, bowed facedown,
15At daybreak the angels hurried Lot along, saying, “Get up! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away in the punishment of the city.”
Your argument doesn't make much sense since Solomon sat on the throne of YHWH. 1 Chronicles 29:23 says "So Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD..." Solomon isn't YHWH, but Solomon had YHWH's authority.
The angel of the LORD speaks to the LORD and vice versa. There is a speaker, a listener, not two YHWH's, not the same individual having a conversation with themselves.
Zechariah 1
12Then the angel of the LORD said, “How long, O LORD of Hosts, will You withhold mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been angry these seventy years?”
13So the LORD spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who was speaking with me.
14Then the angel who was speaking with me said, “Proclaim this word: This is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘I am very jealous for Jerusalem and Zion,
You make too many errors of blending single words like logos and angel as if they can only be used in one way. Now you do that even with the mention of LORD which just is a alternate way of writing Yahweh but you use that to dismiss Yahweh as Lord. Then you deny that the application of Yahweh in the Greek to Jesus, even though the OT quotes happen many times and despite the Greek not having been adapted to point out Yahweh in the NT (i.e. with a unique word).
Then you make another error of thinking anyone has said there are two Yahwehs. That is not quite anyone's belief within the debates we have had. Effectively, you lack recognition of scripture testifying of two who are called Yahweh yet not distinct but rather are one, in accord with the Shema (Deut 6:4). That error of blending words appears in your denial of the testimony of scripture whereby you just gloss over the clearer passages of the Angel of the Lord as Yahweh -- of the single Yahweh but also manifesting separately. As such you even deny the testimony of first-century Judaism that recognized Two Powers in Heaven (as pointed out by Segal).
Instead of relying on the wisdom of ages, you unconvincingly postulate that Jesus is mere man. You will not hear of logic exposing that deception of saying he is merely human.
Runningman
Active Member
I have just provided explicit examples from the Bible that prove the angel is not YHWH. Rather than providing your unsolicited and unwanted opinions about me, address the Scripture I posted or I think you can't rebuttal me.
I shared the types of errors you are making. You can apply yourself to undo the errors. We have already been in debate on specific passages but you just try to find some to counter those showing the Angel of the Lord as Yahweh. Bible interpretation is not some game of statistics of rejecting one passage because it does not say what you like. The broader scriptures have to be considered in the interpretation, even if it rejects the unitarian belief system.
False
God says “you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live” (Ex 33:20),
Exodus 33:18–20 (NASB95) — 18 Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!” 19 And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.” 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”
and yet Hagar (Gen 16:13),
Genesis 16:10–13 (NASB95) — 10 Moreover, the angel of the LORD said to her, “I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count.” 11 The angel of the LORD said to her further, “Behold, you are with child, And you will bear a son; And you shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction. 12 “He will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone’s hand will be against him; And he will live to the east of all his brothers.” 13 Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, “You are a God who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?”
Jacob (Gn 32:30),
Genesis 32:24–30 (NASB95) — 24 Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. 25 When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he touched the socket of his thigh; so the socket of Jacob’s thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, “Let me go, for the dawn is breaking.” But he said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27 So he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28 He said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.” 29 Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.”
and Moses (Ex 33:11)
Exodus 33:9–11 (NASB95) — 9 Whenever Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the entrance of the tent; and the LORD would speak with Moses. 10 When all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent, all the people would arise and worship, each at the entrance of his tent. 11 Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses returned to the camp, his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.
are said to have “seen God face to face” in view of their confrontation with this angel.
God promises that his very presence will be among the Israelites, and yet it is the angel who goes with them (Ex 23:23).
That Angel claims to be God
Exo 3:2 KJV 1900) — 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. 7 And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; 8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them. 10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt. 11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? 12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations
Genesis 31:11–13 (NASB95) — 11 “Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob,’ and I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 “He said, ‘Lift up now your eyes and see that all the male goats which are mating are striped, speckled, and mottled; for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. 13 ‘I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar, where you made a vow to Me; now arise, leave this land, and return to the land of your birth.’ ”
The angel declares as Yahweh
Genesis 22:15–18 (NASB95) — 15 Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 “In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”
Jacob references the Angel he saw as Yahweh
Genesis 28:18–22 (NASB 95) — 18 So Jacob rose early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on its top. 19 He called the name of that place Bethel; however, previously the name of the city had been Luz. 20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will keep me on this journey that I take, and will give me food to eat and garments to wear, 21 and I return to my father’s house in safety, then the LORD (yahweh) will be my God. 22 This stone, which I have set up as a pillar, will be God’s house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You.”
Yahweh himself speaks of Yahweh in a third person
Yahweh sends Yahweh
Zechariah 2:8–13 (LEB) — 8 For thus said Yahweh of hosts, after glory he sent me against the nations plundering you: Truly, the one touching you is touching the apple of his eye. 9 “Yes, look! I am going to wave my hand against them, and they will become plunder for their servants, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me. 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for look, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares Yahweh. 11 “Many nations will join themselves to Yahweh on that day, and they will be my people, and I will dwell in your midst. And you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me to you. 12 And Yahweh will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and he will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all people, before Yahweh, for he is roused from his holy dwelling.”
Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the 3rd person
Exodus 19:20–25 (LEB) — 20 And Yahweh went down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain, and Yahweh called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21 And Yahweh said to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, lest they break through to Yahweh to see and many from them fall. 22 And even the priests who come near Yahweh must consecrate themselves, lest Yahweh break out against them.” 23 And Moses said to Yahweh, “The people are not able to go up to Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, saying, ‘Set limits around the mountain and consecrate it.’ ” 24 And Yahweh said to him, “Go, go down, and come up, you and Aaron with you and the priests, but the people must not break through to go up to Yahweh, lest "he" break out against them.” 25 And Moses went down to the people, and he told them.
Jehovah (Yahweh) speaks of Jehovah (Yahweh)
Genesis 19:24 (UASV) — 24 Then Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven,
Jehovah (yahweh) who was on earth rained down fire from Jehovah (yahweh) in heaven
Zechariah 10:6–12 (UASV) — 6 “I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph. I will bring them back because I have compassion on them, and they shall be as though I had not rejected them, for I am Jehovah their God and I will answer them. 7 Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior, and their hearts shall rejoice as if from wine. Their sons shall see it and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in Jehovah. 8 “I will whistle for them and gather them in, for I have redeemed them, and they shall be as numerous as they were before. 9 Though I sow them among the nations, yet in far countries they shall remember me, and with their sons they shall live and return. 10 I will bring them back from the land of Egypt, and gather them from Assyria, and I will bring them to the land of Gilead and to Lebanon, until there is no room for them. 11 And he shall pass through the sea of distress and strike down the waves of the sea, and all the depths of the Nile shall dry up. The pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the scepter of Egypt shall depart. 12 I will make them strong in Jehovah, and they shall walk in his name,” declares Jehovah.
Finally he who is the I am he, the first and the last, the founder of the earth who spread out the heavens, was sent by Yahweh God with the Spirit of Yahweh
Isaiah 48:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 “Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
Oh BTW the Lord of hosts you speak of in Zechariah was sent by the Lord of Hosts
Zechariah 2:6–9 (KJV 1900) — 6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: For I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. 7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon. 8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: For he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. 9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, And they shall be a spoil to their servants: And ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.
Um we saw otherwise above
but lets look
Numbers 22:35–38 (NASB95) — 35 But the angel of the LORD said to Balaam, “Go with the men, but you shall speak only the word which I tell you.” So Balaam went along with the leaders of Balak. 36 When Balak heard that Balaam was coming, he went out to meet him at the city of Moab, which is on the Arnon border, at the extreme end of the border. 37 Then Balak said to Balaam, “Did I not urgently send to you to call you? Why did you not come to me? Am I really unable to honor you?” 38 So Balaam said to Balak, “Behold, I have come now to you! Am I able to speak anything at all? The word that God puts in my mouth, that I shall speak.”
The angel of the lord says to Ballam you shall speak only what I tell you
Balaam reports this as the words God puts in his mouth
That passage is contrary to your claim
So what? Haggai is not God
Again So what?
That does nothing at all to contradict the fact that there is a messenger of the lord who is called God, Yahweh.
Except we have seen multiple verses where the angel was declared God
The angel of the lord is called God or Yahweh
KJV 1900) — Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. 7 And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; 8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them. 10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt. 11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? 12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
The Messenger (angel) of Yahweh is called God, the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, Elohim, Yahweh
and here as well the angel of the Lord declares as Yahweh (Lord)
Genesis 22:15–18 (NASB95) — 15 Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 “In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”
Below the angel of the Lord calls himself the God of Bethel
Genesis 31:11–13 (NASB95) — 11 “Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob,’ and I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 “He said, ‘Lift up now your eyes and see that all the male goats which are mating are striped, speckled, and mottled; for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. 13 ‘I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar, where you made a vow to Me; now arise, leave this land, and return to the land of your birth.’ ”
The angel of God declared himself the God of Bethel the God jacob made a vow to having also identified as Yahweh seen below
Genesis 28:18–22 (NASB 95) — 18 So Jacob rose early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on its top. 19 He called the name of that place Bethel; however, previously the name of the city had been Luz. 20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will keep me on this journey that I take, and will give me food to eat and garments to wear, 21 and I return to my father’s house in safety, then the LORD (yahweh) will be my God. 22 This stone, which I have set up as a pillar, will be God’s house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You.”
Except God was stated to have been seen face to face
God says “you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live” (Ex 33:20),
Exodus 33:20 (NASB95) — 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”
and yet Hagar (Gen 16:13),
Genesis 16:13 (NASB95) — 13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, “You are a God who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?”
Jacob (Gn 32:30),
Genesis 32:30 (NASB95) — 30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.”
and Moses (Ex 33:11)
Exodus 33:11 (NASB95) — 11 Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses returned to the camp, his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.
are said to have “seen God face to face” or was seen in view of their confrontation with this angel.
Genesis 16:13 (NASB95) — 13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, “You are a God who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?”
No man has seen God the Father but the Angel of the Lord was seen and was called God as shown above
Haggar saw him
But Do you think Jesus lied
John 1:18 (NASB 95) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
John 6:46 (NASB 95) — 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
1 John 4:12No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.
1 Tim 6:16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
If that were so why would it be stated God cannot be seen face to face
Exodus 33:20 (NASB95) — 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”
They saw Not God the Father but they saw God - the angel of the lord
He is called God and you are just denying what he is called
Jacob's experience
Genesis 31:11–13 (NASB95) — 11 “Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob,’ and I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 “He said, ‘Lift up now your eyes and see that all the male goats which are mating are striped, speckled, and mottled; for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. 13 ‘I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar, where you made a vow to Me; now arise, leave this land, and return to the land of your birth.’ ”
The angel of God declared himself the God of Bethel the God jacob made a vow to having also identified as Yahweh seen below
Genesis 28:18–22 (NASB 95) — 18 So Jacob rose early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on its top. 19 He called the name of that place Bethel; however, previously the name of the city had been Luz. 20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will keep me on this journey that I take, and will give me food to eat and garments to wear, 21 and I return to my father’s house in safety, then the LORD (yahweh) will be my God. 22 This stone, which I have set up as a pillar, will be God’s house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You.”
Stephen full of the Holy Spirit reveals it was the angel who appeared to Moses in the burning Bush
um False all it shows One will not go with him
You assume trinitarians hold them to be but one person
Well lets see
Yahweh sends Yahweh
Zechariah 2:8–13 (LEB) — 8 For thus said Yahweh of hosts, after glory he sent me against the nations plundering you: Truly, the one touching you is touching the apple of his eye. 9 “Yes, look! I am going to wave my hand against them, and they will become plunder for their servants, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me. 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for look, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares Yahweh. 11 “Many nations will join themselves to Yahweh on that day, and they will be my people, and I will dwell in your midst. And you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me to you. 12 And Yahweh will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and he will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all people, before Yahweh, for he is roused from his holy dwelling.”
Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the 3rd person
Exodus 19:20–25 (LEB) — 20 And Yahweh went down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain, and Yahweh called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21 And Yahweh said to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, lest they break through to Yahweh to see and many from them fall. 22 And even the priests who come near Yahweh must consecrate themselves, lest Yahweh break out against them.” 23 And Moses said to Yahweh, “The people are not able to go up to Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, saying, ‘Set limits around the mountain and consecrate it.’ ” 24 And Yahweh said to him, “Go, go down, and come up, you and Aaron with you and the priests, but the people must not break through to go up to Yahweh, lest he break out against them.” 25 And Moses went down to the people, and he told them.
Genesis 19:24 (UASV) — 24 Then Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven,
Jehovah (yahweh) who was on earth rained down fire from Jehovah (yahweh) in heaven
Jehovah God will make the following strong in Jehovah not in himself refering to the Jehovah he was making them strong in as those who walk in his name
Zechariah 10:6–12 (UASV) — 6 “I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph. I will bring them back because I have compassion on them, and they shall be as though I had not rejected them, for I am Jehovah their God and I will answer them. 7 Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior, and their hearts shall rejoice as if from wine. Their sons shall see it and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in Jehovah. 8 “I will whistle for them and gather them in, for I have redeemed them, and they shall be as numerous as they were before. 9 Though I sow them among the nations, yet in far countries they shall remember me, and with their sons they shall live and return. 10 I will bring them back from the land of Egypt, and gather them from Assyria, and I will bring them to the land of Gilead and to Lebanon, until there is no room for them. 11 And he shall pass through the sea of distress and strike down the waves of the sea, and all the depths of the Nile shall dry up. The pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the scepter of Egypt shall depart. 12 I will make them strong in Jehovah, and they shall walk in his name,” declares Jehovah.
Exodus 19:10–25 (NASB95) — 10 The Lord also said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments; 11 and let them be ready for the third day, for on the third day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. 12 “You shall set bounds for the people all around, saying, ‘Beware that you do not go up on the mountain or touch the border of it; whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. 13 ‘No hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot through; whether beast or man, he shall not live.’ When the ram’s horn sounds a long blast, they shall come up to the mountain.” 14 So Moses went down from the mountain to the people and consecrated the people, and they washed their garments. 15 He said to the people, “Be ready for the third day; do not go near a woman.” 16 So it came about on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunder and lightning flashes and a thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked violently. 19 When the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him with thunder. 20 The Lord came down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, so that they do not break through to the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish. 22 “Also let the priests who come near to the Lord consecrate themselves, or else the Lord will break out against them.” 23 Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up to Mount Sinai, for You warned us, saying, ‘Set bounds about the mountain and consecrate it.’ ” 24 Then the Lord said to him, “Go down and come up again, you and Aaron with you; but do not let the priests and the people break through to come up to the Lord, or He will break forth upon them.” 25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.
You are simply denying what the bible states
Yahweh sends Yahweh
Zechariah 2:8–13 (LEB) — 8 For thus said Yahweh of hosts, after glory he sent me against the nations plundering you: Truly, the one touching you is touching the apple of his eye. 9 “Yes, look! I am going to wave my hand against them, and they will become plunder for their servants, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me. 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for look, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares Yahweh. 11 “Many nations will join themselves to Yahweh on that day, and they will be my people, and I will dwell in your midst. And you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me to you. 12 And Yahweh will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and he will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all people, before Yahweh, for he is roused from his holy dwelling.”
Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the 3rd person
Exodus 19:20–25 (LEB) — 20 And Yahweh went down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain, and Yahweh called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21 And Yahweh said to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, lest they break through to Yahweh to see and many from them fall. 22 And even the priests who come near Yahweh must consecrate themselves, lest Yahweh break out against them.” 23 And Moses said to Yahweh, “The people are not able to go up to Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, saying, ‘Set limits around the mountain and consecrate it.’ ” 24 And Yahweh said to him, “Go, go down, and come up, you and Aaron with you and the priests, but the people must not break through to go up to Yahweh, lest he break out against them.” 25 And Moses went down to the people, and he told them.
Genesis 19:24 (UASV) — 24 Then Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven,
Jehovah (yahweh) who was on earth rained down fire from Jehovah (yahweh) in heaven
Jehovah God will make the following strong in Jehovah not in himself refering to the Jehovah he was making them strong in as those who walk in his name
Zechariah 10:6–12 (UASV) — 6 “I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph. I will bring them back because I have compassion on them, and they shall be as though I had not rejected them, for I am Jehovah their God and I will answer them. 7 Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior, and their hearts shall rejoice as if from wine. Their sons shall see it and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in Jehovah. 8 “I will whistle for them and gather them in, for I have redeemed them, and they shall be as numerous as they were before. 9 Though I sow them among the nations, yet in far countries they shall remember me, and with their sons they shall live and return. 10 I will bring them back from the land of Egypt, and gather them from Assyria, and I will bring them to the land of Gilead and to Lebanon, until there is no room for them. 11 And he shall pass through the sea of distress and strike down the waves of the sea, and all the depths of the Nile shall dry up. The pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the scepter of Egypt shall depart. 12 I will make them strong in Jehovah, and they shall walk in his name,” declares Jehovah.
Exodus 19:10–25 (NASB95) — 10 The Lord also said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments; 11 and let them be ready for the third day, for on the third day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. 12 “You shall set bounds for the people all around, saying, ‘Beware that you do not go up on the mountain or touch the border of it; whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. 13 ‘No hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot through; whether beast or man, he shall not live.’ When the ram’s horn sounds a long blast, they shall come up to the mountain.” 14 So Moses went down from the mountain to the people and consecrated the people, and they washed their garments. 15 He said to the people, “Be ready for the third day; do not go near a woman.” 16 So it came about on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunder and lightning flashes and a thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked violently. 19 When the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him with thunder. 20 The Lord came down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, so that they do not break through to the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish. 22 “Also let the priests who come near to the Lord consecrate themselves, or else the Lord will break out against them.” 23 Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up to Mount Sinai, for You warned us, saying, ‘Set bounds about the mountain and consecrate it.’ ” 24 Then the Lord said to him, “Go down and come up again, you and Aaron with you; but do not let the priests and the people break through to come up to the Lord, or He will break forth upon them.” 25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.
My argument is based upon the following facts
The angel of the Lord declares himself to be God.
The angel of the Lord is declared God and Yahweh.
Yahweh, speaking in the first person, "I" speaks of Yahweh in the third person, “he”.
The angel of the Lord, the first and the last, claims to have founded the earth, and his right hand to have spread out the heavens that would be Jesus.
Multiple New Testament verses call Jesus God
John 1:1 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:18 (LEB) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known.
John 20:28 (LEB) — 28 Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Hebrews 1:7–8 (LEB) — 7 And concerning the angels he says, “The one who makes his angels winds, and his servants a flame of fire,” 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom.
1 John 5:20 (LEB) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, in order that we may know the one who is true, and we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.
Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
2 Peter 1:1 (LEB) — 1 Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith equal in value to ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Philippians 2:5–7 (LEB) — 5 Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man,
Colossians 2:9 (NASB 95) — 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
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Great summary. The unitarians tend to be hyperliteralists and expecting to be able to tell the meaning from simply reading the text.
Runningman
Active Member
There aren't any errors, perhaps it's just your perception and you should spend some time focusing on fixing your broken religion.
I told you how things go wrong in your process of interpretation. You either learn or you keep repeating the errors all over the place. You do not have any obligation to improve your skills except for sake of integrity.
Runningman
Active Member
We've already proven in my previous post that someone can speak YHWH's words in the first person without stating that they are speaking YHWH's words and that it doesn't make them God.
Notice how YHWH will put His words in the prophets mouth and the prophet will speak them, but the prophet won't be YHWH.
Deuteronomy 18
18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
Notice how Haggai speaks the words of YHWH in first person. We know Haggai isn't YHWH though.
Haggai 1
13Haggai, the messenger of the LORD, delivered the message of the LORD to the people: “I am with you,” declares the LORD.
Amos speaks in the first person as God without saying he is representing YHWH:
Amos 4
11“Some of you I overthrew
as I overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah,
and you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze,
yet you did not return to Me,”
So you have not provided a convincing argument at all. In fact, your premise is destroyed by examples of people not being YHWH speaking YHWH's words without introducing them as YHWH words.
The angel of the Lord isn't the first and last.
This doesn't call Jesus God.
Here's the correct version:
John 1
18No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
That doesn't call Jesus God.
This doesn't equate Jesus with God since the original quote is from Psalm 45:6,7 about a human king, probably Solomon.
This is what I quote too since it's about the Father being the true God.
Your interpretation is not convincing since you contradict John many times.
John 17
3And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Runningman
Active Member
Already debunked all of this. Read my previous reply and respond to every point. Don't back down out of this.
I explained the problems with a few lines. It hardly requires answering each with the same problem stated over and over again. You generalize the use of "angel" so it has no distinction instead of letting each passage reflect its own meaning. You use passages about "Angel of the Lord" where it is not as clearly referring to Yahweh. So your selection is totally biased. There is no reason to go into more detail.
Utter nonsense. You cannot debunk scripture by your assumed interpretations of other verses
You need to actually address the verses
Yahweh sends Yahweh
Zechariah 2:8–13 (LEB) — 8 For thus said Yahweh of hosts, after glory he sent me against the nations plundering you: Truly, the one touching you is touching the apple of his eye. 9 “Yes, look! I am going to wave my hand against them, and they will become plunder for their servants, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me. 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for look, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares Yahweh. 11 “Many nations will join themselves to Yahweh on that day, and they will be my people, and I will dwell in your midst. And you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me to you. 12 And Yahweh will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and he will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all people, before Yahweh, for he is roused from his holy dwelling.”
Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the 3rd person
Exodus 19:20–25 (LEB) — 20 And Yahweh went down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain, and Yahweh called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21 And Yahweh said to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, lest they break through to Yahweh to see and many from them fall. 22 And even the priests who come near Yahweh must consecrate themselves, lest Yahweh break out against them.” 23 And Moses said to Yahweh, “The people are not able to go up to Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, saying, ‘Set limits around the mountain and consecrate it.’ ” 24 And Yahweh said to him, “Go, go down, and come up, you and Aaron with you and the priests, but the people must not break through to go up to Yahweh, lest he break out against them.” 25 And Moses went down to the people, and he told them.
Genesis 19:24 (UASV) — 24 Then Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven,
Jehovah (yahweh) who was on earth rained down fire from Jehovah (yahweh) in heaven
Jehovah God will make the following strong in Jehovah not in himself refering to the Jehovah he was making them strong in as those who walk in his name
Zechariah 10:6–12 (UASV) — 6 “I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph. I will bring them back because I have compassion on them, and they shall be as though I had not rejected them, for I am Jehovah their God and I will answer them. 7 Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior, and their hearts shall rejoice as if from wine. Their sons shall see it and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in Jehovah. 8 “I will whistle for them and gather them in, for I have redeemed them, and they shall be as numerous as they were before. 9 Though I sow them among the nations, yet in far countries they shall remember me, and with their sons they shall live and return. 10 I will bring them back from the land of Egypt, and gather them from Assyria, and I will bring them to the land of Gilead and to Lebanon, until there is no room for them. 11 And he shall pass through the sea of distress and strike down the waves of the sea, and all the depths of the Nile shall dry up. The pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the scepter of Egypt shall depart. 12 I will make them strong in Jehovah, and they shall walk in his name,” declares Jehovah.
Exodus 19:10–25 (NASB95) — 10 The Lord also said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments; 11 and let them be ready for the third day, for on the third day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. 12 “You shall set bounds for the people all around, saying, ‘Beware that you do not go up on the mountain or touch the border of it; whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. 13 ‘No hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot through; whether beast or man, he shall not live.’ When the ram’s horn sounds a long blast, they shall come up to the mountain.” 14 So Moses went down from the mountain to the people and consecrated the people, and they washed their garments. 15 He said to the people, “Be ready for the third day; do not go near a woman.” 16 So it came about on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunder and lightning flashes and a thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked violently. 19 When the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him with thunder. 20 The Lord came down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, so that they do not break through to the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish. 22 “Also let the priests who come near to the Lord consecrate themselves, or else the Lord will break out against them.” 23 Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up to Mount Sinai, for You warned us, saying, ‘Set bounds about the mountain and consecrate it.’ ” 24 Then the Lord said to him, “Go down and come up again, you and Aaron with you; but do not let the priests and the people break through to come up to the Lord, or He will break forth upon them.” 25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.
Um we see from the following
John 1:18 (NASB95) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
John 1:18 (UASV) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, that one has made him fully known.
John 1:18 (NIV) — 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
John 1:18 (ESV) — 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.
John 1:18 (LSB) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Sorry but it clearly does. Offering a bald denial does nothing
Christ is called by Thomas both Lord and God
And Christ responds with
John 20:29 (NIV) — 29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
refuting your denial
Sorry, but the words are
But concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom.
And continues
Hebrews 1:9–11 (NIV) — 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” 10 He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
Are you imagining that by an earthly man the foundations of the heaven and earth were made?
You left this off.
In his son Jesus Christ.
First, that does not address the verses.
Second
Jude 4 (NASB 95) — 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
If we employ your approach, then Jesus is our only master and Lord.
