Peterlag
Active Member
You brought up face to face believing that someone saw God. My comment stated that it's just a figure of speech. You want proof? I was not there. And neither were you.
Thomas... My Lord and my God
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Doug Brents
Active Member
I never mentioned face to face. That was Tom who mentioned that. But that is irrelevant. You seem to like to make accusations and state your own position, but refuse to defend it with proofs when challenged.
As requested, please give direct evidence, not your opinions, that prove Christ is not God.
No man has seen God, except they saw him who became the Christ while scripture states they saw God
God says “you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live” (Ex 33:20), and yet Hagar (Gen 16:13), Jacob (Gn 32:30), and Moses (Ex 33:11) are said to have “seen God face to face” in view of their confrontation with this angel. God promises that his very presence will be among the Israelites, and yet it is the angel who goes with them (Ex 23:23). The commander of the army of God is given reverence equal to God’s (Jos 5:13–6:2). The angel seems to possess the full authority and character of God.
civic
Active Member
God has revealed His nature/being in many different ways, unfortunately the uni denies them.
Peterlag
Active Member
I don't have to prove Jesus is not God since you can't prove that he is.
Um Scripture does that
There are the Old Testament verses I posted as well as the New Testament ones
John 1:1 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:18 (NASB95) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
John 20:28 (NASB95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Hebrews 1:8 (NASB95) — 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
Titus 2:13 (NASB95) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
2 Peter 1:1 (NASB95) — 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
Hebrews 1:1–3 (NASB 95) — 1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Philippians 2:6–7 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Colossians 2:9 (NASB 95) — 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
1 John 5:20 (NASB 95) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Peterlag
Active Member
God is all wise, but Jesus grew in wisdom...
The Bible says “And Jesus increased in wisdom” (Luke 2:52). Jesus “learned obedience” (Hebrews 5:8). God does not need to learn. Trinitarians assert that it was the human part of Jesus that grew and learned, but there is not a single verse that makes that distinction. Jesus also had limited knowledge, whereas God does not. In the book of Mark we read “But concerning that day or that hour [when the Son returns] no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
And then there's Scripture teaching it was fitting that “God” should make Jesus “perfect through suffering” (Hebrews 2:10). God is, and has always been “perfect” but Jesus needed to attain perfection through his suffering. There are many verses indicating that the power and authority Jesus had was given to him by the Father. Jesus Christ would have always had those things that the Scripture says he was “given” if he was the eternal God. Christ was:
The Bible says “And Jesus increased in wisdom” (Luke 2:52). Jesus “learned obedience” (Hebrews 5:8). God does not need to learn. Trinitarians assert that it was the human part of Jesus that grew and learned, but there is not a single verse that makes that distinction. Jesus also had limited knowledge, whereas God does not. In the book of Mark we read “But concerning that day or that hour [when the Son returns] no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
And then there's Scripture teaching it was fitting that “God” should make Jesus “perfect through suffering” (Hebrews 2:10). God is, and has always been “perfect” but Jesus needed to attain perfection through his suffering. There are many verses indicating that the power and authority Jesus had was given to him by the Father. Jesus Christ would have always had those things that the Scripture says he was “given” if he was the eternal God. Christ was:
- Given “all authority” Matthew 28:18).
- Given “a name above every name” (Philippians 2:9).
- Given work to finish by the Father (John 5:36).
- Given those who believed in him by the Father (John 6:39, 10:29).
- Given glory (John 17:22, 24).
- Given his “cup” [his torture and death] by the Father (John 18:11).
- “Seated” at God’s own right hand (Ephesians 1:20-21).
- “Appointed” over the Church (Ephesians 1:22).
Do you forget the person who existed before his incarnation in human form
He had existed in the form of God
Philippians 2:6 (NASB95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
was the exact representation of his nature, the radiance of his glory.
Heb 1:1–3God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
He created all things
John 1:1–3In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Col 1:15–17He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Hebrews 1:10 (NASB 95) — 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
Hebrews 2:10 (NASB 95) — 10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
existed before all things
John 1:1–3 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Before the world was created, the Word already existed represents the Greek "in (the) beginning was the Word." As the commentaries point out, John obviously intends that his readers see a parallel between the opening words of his Gospel and the opening words of Genesis. "In (the) beginning" refers to the period before creation (creation is not mentioned until verse 3), and so TEV renders this phrase before the world was created see New English Bible (NEB) "when all things began," NEB alternative rendering "The Word was at the creation," and GeCL "In the beginning, before the world was created". John wants his readers to understand that at whatever point the creation began, the Word already existed. (from UBS Translator Handbook Series)
John 8:58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
Rev 22:13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
John 17:5Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Existing with the Father in glory
John 17:5 (NASB 95) — 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
1 John 1:1–2What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
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Doug Brents
Active Member
This response demonstrates that you know your position is weak. If you had proof, you would be willing, and even happy, to show it at the least provocation. Yet you run from the challenge every time. Step up! Prove your case! Or sit down and shut up.
Peterlag
Active Member
I don't run, dodge or hide. Check my record here and you will see I post often and reply often. And there's nothing about my comments or post that's weak.
He has been given so many verses from both the Old and New Testaments contrary to his views that they are clearly refuted.
You have multiple verses you have done nothing to actually address so your record is contrary to the claim above.
Peterlag
Active Member
You guys don't address what I post. You just post more of your stuff that is either
from...
1.) A bad translation.
2.) Using a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Or not understanding how the words were used in the culture they were written in.
The following is what my post is written about. Can you respond to that?
Peterlag
Active Member
That's probably because you post too many to address. What I see from you is a rhetorical tactic being deployed here known as the Gish Gallop. It's a debate strategy where one side fires off a massive amount of arguments, points, and claims all in one post with the clear intent to overwhelm and exhaust anyone trying to respond. The purpose of the Gish Gallop is to flood the conversation with so many points that nobody can reasonably address them all, creating the false impression that their arguments are insurmountable or that the other side has no answers.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Pete, you refuse to address most of what is directed to you. You post the same thing over and over without addressing the points in the posts to which you are replying. You continue to post nonsense that has already been refuted through Scripture. And you refuse to answer direct questions.
That is the very definition of running, dodging, and hiding. Your record betrays you. The fact that you post often, and reply often (without addressing the full content of the post to which you are replying) does not mean that you are not running, dodging, and hiding.
Peterlag
Active Member
I post the same data because you folks post the same Scripture. There's only about 8 really good Scriptures that are said to support the Trinity. I have looked at all of them and created a response to all of them. You keep posting the same John 1:1 and Philippians 2:8 and I continue to respond with the same data I already have on those Scriptures. What verse are you referring to that I have not responded to a million times?
Doug Brents
Active Member
There is a finite quantity of Scripture, and not every Scripture passage is relevant to every topic, so yes the same Scripture passages are posted frequently when discussing the same topic.
What you have posted about John 1:1 and Phil 2:8 has been repeatedly refuted, showing that your rhetoric comes from your personal presupposition rather than an accurate understanding of what Scripture actually says. We must begin with an understanding that Scripture is the ultimate authority in this discussion. If that is not firmly agreed then there is no point in discussing any of this. Your personal bias (which is evident in many of your posts and positions) has no place in this discussion.
Peterlag
Active Member
Well, then stop saying I'm not responding or that I'm running or hiding. Say the truth... that you don't like my response. That you think my replies are refuted by folks here like you, and that you think my comments are rhetoric that comes from my personal presupposition rather than an accurate understanding of what Scripture actually says.
To which I would reply that I think the same of you. That my post have repeatedly refuted, showing that your rhetoric comes from your personal presupposition rather than an accurate understanding of what Scripture actually says.
So then I think it would be honest if you would stop with the BULL S@%T saying I'm not responding or that I'm hiding or running.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Is that you without the armor?
Bottom line, you have not addressed a single one.
The way to address such is one by one.
BTW maybe you should wonder why there are so many verses contrary to your theology.
