Thanks. I knew there had to be a term for your approach. Now we know it as the Gish Gallop. That is when a unitarian posts a slew of bible dictionary statements said to reject the trinitarian doctrines even though that is not the view the authors of the quotes particularly hold.
Thomas... My Lord and my God
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
John 17:3 (KJV) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Jesus is God ie the divine Word under the subjective influence of the non-omniscient human senses, experiencing the identity of a human ie non-God, and thus would say the Father is the only true God, while behind the scenes He continued to uphold the universe.
Colossians 1:17 (KJV) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Hebrews 10:5 (KJV) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
This is the incarnation, the hypostatic union, the communicatio idiomatum, Jesus wielding both natures.
This reconciles those scriptures that say/imply He is God with those that say He is a non-omniscient man.
Peterlag
Active Member
Five verses from the Old Testament...
Isaiah 44:6,8
I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isaiah 45:21-22
there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
for I am God, and there is none else.
Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me:
Isaiah 44:6,8
I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isaiah 45:21-22
there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
for I am God, and there is none else.
Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me:
Peterlag
Active Member
I have addressed all your Scriptures. You just don't like my replies, so you say I did not respond.
Sorry but that is totally false. Appealing to an additional verse interpreted according to your theology is not addressing the many verses posted.
Just recently in response to a few references about
No man has seen God, except they saw him who became the Christ while scripture states they saw God
God says “you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live” (Ex 33:20), and yet Hagar (Gen 16:13), Jacob (Gn 32:30), and Moses (Ex 33:11) are said to have “seen God face to face” in view of their confrontation with this angel. God promises that his very presence will be among the Israelites, and yet it is the angel who goes with them (Ex 23:23). The commander of the army of God is given reverence equal to God’s (Jos 5:13–6:2). The angel seems to possess the full authority and character of God
When i stated you have not addressed a single one of the verses you replied
"That's probably because you post too many to address."
Falsifying your claim of addressing all
Last edited:
Peterlag
Active Member
There's a few reasons why I might not respond to what you write and it's not because I can't or I'm running or hiding or that it's false or that I'm lying when I say I do respond. These are the reasons...
1.) Too many verses are posted and I do count them and find some 25 to 40 listed.
2.) I have no idea what your point is.
3.) You ask questions based on you imagination and not on Scripture.
4.) You ask questions about the book of Revelation that has nothing to do with Christians that is written in parables and figures of speech based on the customs and culture of Israel that deal with what will concern Israel in the future.
5.) I just find the posted data too stupid to respond to. Data mostly based on human reasoning, imagination, speculation and assumptions as they pick one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here, and a clue there.
6.) I do respond but you do not like or understand and accept what I wrote so you say it's not a good responds or I did not respond.
7.) Since there's only about 8 real verses used to try and support the trinity is why I have already created data in responds and thus, it would not be hard to just click the mouse and post a responds. And I often do.
8.) The person commenting on what I said is too rude for me to reply too.
This calls into question your reasons
Sorry but that is totally false. Appealing to an additional verse interpreted according to your theology is not addressing the many verses posted.
Just recently in response to a few references about
No man has seen God, except they saw him who became the Christ while scripture states they saw God
God says “you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live” (Ex 33:20), and yet Hagar (Gen 16:13), Jacob (Gn 32:30), and Moses (Ex 33:11) are said to have “seen God face to face” in view of their confrontation with this angel. God promises that his very presence will be among the Israelites, and yet it is the angel who goes with them (Ex 23:23). The commander of the army of God is given reverence equal to God’s (Jos 5:13–6:2). The angel seems to possess the full authority and character of God
When i stated you have not addressed a single one of the verses you replied
"That's probably because you post too many to address."
Falsifying your claim of addressing all
BTW your claim of just 8 verses that can be used as an argument for the trinity is refuted by your own comments about the far too many I posted.
Peterlag
Active Member
Here's a good example as to why I might not respond.
1.) you're rude. You don't say well, I disagree or I believe what you wrote is not the Scriptures. Instead you write that what I said I'm doing is false meaning I'm lying.
2.) Or that what I write is not addressing the verse. In other words I did not respond when in fact I did.
3.) Your posted Scripture concerning Ex 33 makes no sense to me. The Bible says nobody ever saw God. So what's your point?
Complete
Active Member
'For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.'
(Col 2:9)
Hello there, @Peterlag,
Your opening paragraph reveals the unbelief that you are seeking to justify. It is to God the Father that you should bring this, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and not seek to pass on the substance of your unbelief to others.
* From the fulness of Thomas' heart his mouth spoke, words of faith and trust.
'A good man out of the good treasure of His heart
bringeth forth that which is good;
and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart
bringeth forth that which is evil:
for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.'
(Luk 6:45)
Praise God!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Last edited:
Peterlag
Active Member
I believe it's you that is passing your unbelief to others by teaching the trinity. The Trinity does not come from Scripture. It comes from the doctrine of devils that the churches teach (and in most cases it's the first thing they teach) and then they begin to look for Scripture that supports such a concept. They do this by taking the verses out of context, or not understanding how the words were used in the culture they were written in, or from a bad translation.
wow. God is a doctrine of devils? That is pushing it too far.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Yet again......
The Trinity is not a single verse but a synthesis of Scripture
Trinitarians agree:The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible.
The doctrine is inferred by putting together multiple passages where Father, Son, and Spirit each possess divine attributes.
The argument is that the concept is biblical even if the term is not.
What is undisputed is
To us there is but one God, the Father.... 1 Corinthians 8:6
No Trinitarian disagrees: the Father is God.
Specific scriptures that support us...
John 1:1 The Word was GodJohn 20:28 Thomas calls Jesus “My Lord and my God.
and Jesus does not correct him.
Titus 2:13 our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ
Hebrews 1:8 The Father says to the Son:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.”
Also... Jesus receives worship
Only God may be worshipped:Deut. 6:13 Worship the LORD your God and serve Him only. Deut. 6:13
But:
Matthew 28:17 And they worshiped Him.
Hebrews 1:6 All the angels of God worship Him.
If worship belongs only to God, then Jesus receiving worship suggests divinity.
What about Jesus forgives sins
Only God can do this:Mark 2:7 Who can forgive sins but God alone? Mark 2:7
Yet Jesus forgives sins on His own authority (Mark 2:5–11).
Never forget...Jesus is creator
John 1:3 All things were made by Him.
Colossians 1:16 By Him all things were created.
Creation IS a work only God performs.
THE ONLY CONCLUSION: In trinitarian logic, if Jesus does what only God can do, He shares God’s nature.
How About .... The Holy Spirit speaks, teaches, commands
Acts 13:2 The Holy Spirit said…
John 14:26 He will teach you all things.
Trinitarians argue these are traits of a person, not an impersonal force.
The Holy Spirit is called God
Acts 5:3–4 Peter says Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit
then says he lied to God
This is taken as equating the Spirit with God.
He performs divine works
Creation (Gen. 1:2), regeneration (John 3:5–8), inspiration of Scripture (2 Pet. 1:21).
So we have Three Distinct Persons Acting Together
a. Jesus’ baptism
All three appear distinctly yet simultaneously:
1. The Father speaks from heaven
2. The Son is baptized
3. The Spirit descends like a dove
(Matthew 3:16–17)
This is a core passage: not one Person switching roles, but three active at once.
Let Us Not Forget The Great Commission
Matthew 28:19 Baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
One name, three referents.Trinitarians argue this implies unity and distinction at the same time.
Early Christians struggled to reconcile:
- Monotheism (“The LORD is one”)
- Jesus being divine
- The Spirit acting divine
- Three distinct actors in Scripture
The Trinity was their attempt to express all of these truths simultaneously without contradicting Scripture.
A Trinitarian would say:
The doctrine is not a pagan import
It arises from taking the New Testament at face value
The Father, Son, and Spirit are each described as divine
Yet they interact as distinct persons
And Scripture insists there is only one God
SO:
The Trinity is a biblical explanation of biblical facts — not a doctrine of devils.
Peterlag
Active Member
I do not believe the following support the trinity and have said so many times. Even in this OP.
Specific scriptures that support us...
John 1:1 The Word was GodJohn 20:28 Thomas calls Jesus “My Lord and my God.
and Jesus does not correct him.
Titus 2:13 our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ
Hebrews 1:8 The Father says to the Son:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.”
civic
Active Member
Amen brother
He is calling scripture a doctrine of devils.
No man has seen God, except they saw him who became the Christ while scripture states they saw God
God says “you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live” (Ex 33:20), and yet Hagar (Gen 16:13), Jacob (Gn 32:30), and Moses (Ex 33:11) are said to have “seen God face to face” in view of their confrontation with this angel. God promises that his very presence will be among the Israelites, and yet it is the angel who goes with them (Ex 23:23).
Runningman
Active Member
Not according to Scripture. Scripture states Jesus is a human, not God incarnate, and was created, is subordinate/subject to God, Jesus denied being God, no one ever taught anything about praying or worshipping Jesus in all of Scripture, but Scripture explicitly states the only true God is the Father.
Runningman
Active Member
Yet we still have the angel being a messenger for God, not being God. Remember, Zechariah 1 shows that the angel of the Lord isn't YHWH. The angel and YHWH speak to each other. Notice it doesn't say YHWH is speaking to YHWH.
Zech 1
12Then the angel of the LORD said, “How long, O LORD of Hosts, will You withhold mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been angry these seventy years?”
13So the LORD spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who was speaking with me.
Peterlag
Active Member
The life of Jesus, and the subsequent persecution of Christians...
during the Roman Empire, have come to define what many of us know about early Christianity. The fervent debate, civil strife, and bloody riots as Christianity was coming into being, however, is a side of ancient history rarely described.Richard E. Rubenstein takes the reader to the streets of fourth-century Rome, when a fateful debate over the divinity of Jesus Christ is being fought. Ruled by a Christian emperor, followers of Jesus no longer fear for the survival of their monotheistic faith. But soon they break into two camps regarding the direction of their worship: Is Jesus the son of God and therefore not the same as God? Or is Jesus precisely God on Earth and therefore equal to Him?
With thorough historical, religious, and social research, Rubenstein vividly recreates one of the most critical moments in the history of religion.
You just ignore the verses where he is called God and Yahweh
God says “you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live” (Ex 33:20),
Exodus 33:18–20 (NASB95) — 18 Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!” 19 And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.” 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”
and yet Hagar (Gen 16:13),
Genesis 16:10–13 (NASB95) — 10 Moreover, the angel of the LORD said to her, “I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count.” 11 The angel of the LORD said to her further, “Behold, you are with child, And you will bear a son; And you shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction. 12 “He will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone’s hand will be against him; And he will live to the east of all his brothers.” 13 Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, “You are a God who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?”
Jacob (Gn 32:30),
Genesis 32:24–30 (NASB95) — 24 Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. 25 When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he touched the socket of his thigh; so the socket of Jacob’s thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, “Let me go, for the dawn is breaking.” But he said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27 So he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28 He said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.” 29 Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.”
and Moses (Ex 33:11)
Exodus 33:9–11 (NASB95) — 9 Whenever Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the entrance of the tent; and the LORD would speak with Moses. 10 When all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent, all the people would arise and worship, each at the entrance of his tent. 11 Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses returned to the camp, his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.
are said to have “seen God face to face” in view of their confrontation with this angel.
God promises that his very presence will be among the Israelites, and yet it is the angel who goes with them (Ex 23:23).
That Angel claims to be God
Exo 3:2 KJV 1900) — 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. 7 And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; 8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them. 10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt. 11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? 12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations
Genesis 31:11–13 (NASB95) — 11 “Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob,’ and I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 “He said, ‘Lift up now your eyes and see that all the male goats which are mating are striped, speckled, and mottled; for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. 13 ‘I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar, where you made a vow to Me; now arise, leave this land, and return to the land of your birth.’ ”
The angel declares as Yahweh
Genesis 22:15–18 (NASB95) — 15 Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 “In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”
Jacob references the Angel he saw as Yahweh
Genesis 28:18–22 (NASB 95) — 18 So Jacob rose early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on its top. 19 He called the name of that place Bethel; however, previously the name of the city had been Luz. 20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will keep me on this journey that I take, and will give me food to eat and garments to wear, 21 and I return to my father’s house in safety, then the LORD (yahweh) will be my God. 22 This stone, which I have set up as a pillar, will be God’s house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You.”
Yahweh himself speaks of Yahweh in a third person
Yahweh sends Yahweh
Zechariah 2:8–13 (LEB) — 8 For thus said Yahweh of hosts, after glory he sent me against the nations plundering you: Truly, the one touching you is touching the apple of his eye. 9 “Yes, look! I am going to wave my hand against them, and they will become plunder for their servants, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me. 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for look, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares Yahweh. 11 “Many nations will join themselves to Yahweh on that day, and they will be my people, and I will dwell in your midst. And you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me to you. 12 And Yahweh will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and he will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all people, before Yahweh, for he is roused from his holy dwelling.”
Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the 3rd person
Exodus 19:20–25 (LEB) — 20 And Yahweh went down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain, and Yahweh called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21 And Yahweh said to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, lest they break through to Yahweh to see and many from them fall. 22 And even the priests who come near Yahweh must consecrate themselves, lest Yahweh break out against them.” 23 And Moses said to Yahweh, “The people are not able to go up to Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, saying, ‘Set limits around the mountain and consecrate it.’ ” 24 And Yahweh said to him, “Go, go down, and come up, you and Aaron with you and the priests, but the people must not break through to go up to Yahweh, lest "he" break out against them.” 25 And Moses went down to the people, and he told them.
Jehovah (Yahweh) speaks of Jehovah (Yahweh)
Genesis 19:24 (UASV) — 24 Then Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven,
Jehovah (yahweh) who was on earth rained down fire from Jehovah (yahweh) in heaven
Zechariah 10:6–12 (UASV) — 6 “I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph. I will bring them back because I have compassion on them, and they shall be as though I had not rejected them, for I am Jehovah their God and I will answer them. 7 Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior, and their hearts shall rejoice as if from wine. Their sons shall see it and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in Jehovah. 8 “I will whistle for them and gather them in, for I have redeemed them, and they shall be as numerous as they were before. 9 Though I sow them among the nations, yet in far countries they shall remember me, and with their sons they shall live and return. 10 I will bring them back from the land of Egypt, and gather them from Assyria, and I will bring them to the land of Gilead and to Lebanon, until there is no room for them. 11 And he shall pass through the sea of distress and strike down the waves of the sea, and all the depths of the Nile shall dry up. The pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the scepter of Egypt shall depart. 12 I will make them strong in Jehovah, and they shall walk in his name,” declares Jehovah.
Finally he who is the I am he, the first and the last, the founder of the earth who spread out the heavens, was sent by Yahweh God with the Spirit of Yahweh
Isaiah 48:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 “Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
Oh BTW the Lord of hosts you speak of in Zechariah was sent by the Lord of Hosts
Zechariah 2:6–9 (KJV 1900) — 6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: For I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. 7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon. 8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: For he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. 9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, And they shall be a spoil to their servants: And ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.
Last edited:
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Ah.... simplicity at its finest .....
A reminder...
"Angel” (מַלְאָךְ / ἄγγελος) simply means “messenger,” not “created angel”!!!!
The Hebrew and Greek words mean “messenger” or “one sent.” They are used for
human messengers (2 Sam 11:19; Luke 7:24)
created angels (Gen 19; Matt 1:20)
and the divine Messenger — God Himself appearing in human form.
Now this is an imporatnt fact.....When the text says “the Angel of the LORD” (with the definite article and capitalized in most Bibles), it is a technical title for the pre-incarnate Son, just like we today say “the Word” or “the Son.”Translating it as “Jesus” would lose that technical title and make it sound like the proper name “Jesus” existed before Bethlehem.
If no man can see God’s face and live (Ex 33:20), yet Hagar, Jacob, Gideon, Manoah, etc. did see the Angel of the LORD and called Him God, and even said ‘we shall surely die because we have seen God’ (Judges 6:22; 13:22), the only consistent explanation is that this Angel is God Himself .... the pre-incarnate Christ — who can veil or unveil His glory as He chooses.
That is why Moses could speak to Him ‘face to face, as a man speaks to his friend’ (Ex 33:11; Num 12:8) and still be told ‘you cannot see My face [in its full glory] and live.’ The Angel is God yet He is also sent by God and distinct in person. That is the mystery of the Trinity already shining through the Old Testament.”
