Runningman
Active Member
John 17:3 states the true God is the Father alone. It's still there, you can't change it. This is why I am a Biblical Unitarian, the Bible explicitly states what we believe as Christians.
Thomas... My Lord and my God
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
So Jesus is the only master and lord
Jude 4 (NASB 95) — 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Runningman
Active Member
Yes and the Father is the only true God. When you becoming a Unitarian?
civic
Active Member
John 17:3 states the Son is EQUAL with the Father regarding Eternal Life.
And we know that no man has eternal life to give, that is God's alone to give.
next fallacy
Runningman
Active Member
They are not equals even in the slightest. For starters, Jesus isn't God. Pretty difficult to be equal with God when one isn't God. How do I know? Jesus said so himself.
John 14
28You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.
Let me guess... like with John 17:3, you're going to reject what John 14:28 says too?
Are you obeying your only master and lord?
It's Jesus Christ.
Jude 4 (NASB 95) — 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
According to your methodology.
Peterlag
Active Member
A person did not dwell on the Earth. An it did that you think is a person. The logos is an it.
Peterlag
Active Member
I don't dodge anything. If you're not getting what you think you should from me it's never because I'm ignoring or dodging. It's probably more that you are too stupid to understand what I post.
Yahweh
Jes 41:4 Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Jes 41:4 Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Jes 43:13 Also henceforth I am he; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?”
Jes 43:25 “I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.
Jes 48:12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
Jesus
John 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
John 8:27 They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father.
John 8:28 So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.
John 13:19 I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he.
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Jes 41:4 Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Jes 41:4 Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Jes 43:13 Also henceforth I am he; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?”
Jes 43:25 “I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.
Jes 48:12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
Jesus
John 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
John 8:27 They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father.
John 8:28 So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.
John 13:19 I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he.
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Runningman
Active Member
Yes I am and I am glad you know what the word Only means.
Do you agree the Father is only true God?
John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.
civic
Active Member
and all of Gods children said AMEN !!!
Runningman
Active Member
I will ask you what I have asked some of the others here, because I don't recall talking to you yet, about the First and Last.
Since God is the First and Last and Jesus is the First and Last, then how do you reckon the First and Last was dead? Do you believe God the First and Last can die?
Revelation 1
17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.
civic
Active Member
you don't seem to know that Jesus is the ONE/ONLY Lord is scripture
Runningman
Active Member
If the Father isn't the only true God then Jesus isn't the only Lord and savior. I'm pretty sure you don't want to open that can of worms. Why not just let the Bible be and quit trying to change everything? Let the Father be God and let Jesus be our Lord. Easy day.
synergy
Active Member
So you're claiming that an "it" dwelt on Earth, not Jesus? Explain yourself.
Also, you skipped over your claim that it was through a metaphor that the entire universe was created. Your hallucinations do not count, sorry.
So you obey Christ over God the Father and are more submissive to him as he is your only master?
The answer to your question, however, is no, as I know the Father is also lord and master.
But
In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, “Lord” was used to translate God’s personal name (Yahweh), and by addressing Jesus as “Lord,” Christians are effectively elevating him to the level of God and declaring their complete loyalty to him2. This lordship means Christ is the “sovereign Monarch of the universe” who rules over all people, but specifically rules over his people through their voluntary consent. The church is described as a “Kingdom under the rule of Christ” where believers are “willingly obedient to his Word, his ordinances, and his will”3. As the “Lord of all,” Christ has an absolute dominion and “a right in us and an authority over us” that stems from his role as both Creator and Redeemer1. “Jesus only” is not just a theological concept, but a total surrender of one’s life to Christ’s supreme leadership.
- 1
Loraine Boettner, The Person of Christ (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1943), 25. - 2
Daniel C. Arichea and Howard Hatton, A Handbook on the Letter from Jude and the Second Letter from Peter, UBS Handbook Series (New York: United Bible Societies, 1993), 18. - 3
Don Fortner, Discovering Christ in Matthew (Danville, KY: Don Fortner, 2007), 480–481.
synergy
Active Member
Saying "the Father is the only true God" allows the Word to also be the only true God (John 1:1c). That's Monotheism which Trinitarianism is perfectly in line with. There's no getting around that no matter how many ad hominems you fling, or how many alterations you attempt, or how many verses you disregard (like John 1:1c).
Using "only" or "alone" makes no difference.
Saying "the only true God" or "the true God alone" means One True God, no others, a perfectly Monotheistic statement. Thank you for continuing to promote Trinitarian verses and Trinitarian beliefs. I can nominate you for Trinitarian Man of the Month for November, if you would like.
Peterlag
Active Member
John 1:3 “Everything came to be through it.” The logos is an “it” not a “him.”So you're claiming that an "it" dwelt on Earth, not Jesus? Explain yourself.
Also, you skipped over your claim that it was through a metaphor that the entire universe was created. Your hallucinations do not count, sorry.
Translators have deliberately chosen to use “him” because they wanted to emphasize that the Word was the male person we know as Jesus. This was a theological choice, not a linguistic one.
"Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you” (Proverbs 4:6).
Is the Wisdom in Proverbs 4:6 a distinct divine person?
The "Word" is not literally a person for the same reason that "Wisdom" is not literally a person. Both are to be taken metaphorically.
Jesus is the personification of the Word because He speaks the words of God. To listen to Jesus equals listening to the Word of God.
People often say I'm wrong when I post this because they say I looked it up in an Interlinear or Concordance and it shows the word is a "him" and not an "it." Those reference books show how the Bible translates a word and not what the Greek actually means. The pronoun is an "it" when it refers to an inanimate noun like the "Word" because Greek has grammatical gender and the "Word" in John 1 is a thing so the Greek says it's an "it."
Here's a partial list of how "logos" is translated in the New Testament...
cause, communication, sayings, saying, word, words, account, talk, question, treatise, intent, tidings, speaker, matter, mouth, work, utterance, preaching, speech, concerning, show, do, doctrine, reason, with, and thing.
The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...
1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.
And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
From the looks of your avatar I would guess you would see it that way.
The NWT translates John 1:1–3 like this:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god… All things came into being through it…”
But the actual Greek text destroys that translation:
Greek in John 1 Literal English Translation.
ὁ λόγος … πρὸς τὸν θεόν … θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος(ho logos … “the Word … was with the God … the Word was God”
pros ton theon … theos ēn ho logos)
meanin... The Word is a person who has a relationship with the Father. An “it” cannot be “with” someone.
αὐτὸς ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν(autos en archē “This one (masculine) was in the beginning with God”
pros ton theon) – v.2
meaning.... John deliberately uses the masculine pronoun αὐτός (“he”), not the neuter αὐτό (“it”).
δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο(di’ autou egeneto) – v.3 “All things through him came into being”
meaning..... Again, αὐτοῦ = masculine “him,” not neuter “it.” John repeats the masculine 5 more times in vv. 7, 10, 12–13.
ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us”
ἡμῖν(ho logos sarx egeneto) – v.14
meaning .... Only a person can become flesh, not a quality or an “it.”
Peter.... one question for you.....
“If the Word is just an impersonal ‘it,’ why does John use masculine personal pronouns (he/him) over and over instead of the neuter ‘it’ that matches the neuter noun logos?”Even the Kingdom Interlinear (the JW’s own Greek-English Bible) prints αὐτός and αὐτοῦ in the Greek column — they had to deliberately change “he/him” to “it” in the English side.
John didn’t write about an “it.” He wrote about a divine Person — the eternal Son who became flesh.
Runningman
Active Member
The Father told Jesus what to do and say and then Jesus tells the church what to do. Jesus is our high priest and mediator, not God. Don't nuke it. The Father is still alone the true God, nothing undoes that. I hope that helps you straighten it out.
