Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Runningman]

How about just one verse? Here's mine...

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

View attachment 2252

The Greek word for Lord is kurios and is a masculine title of respect...​

and nobility, which is why we see many others besides God and Jesus being called the “Lord."

• Property owners are called the "Lord" (Matthew 20:8) kurios is “owner” in the NIV.
• Heads of households are called the "Lord" (Mark 13:35) kurios is "owner."
• Slave owners were called the "Lord" (Matthew 10:24) kurios is "master."
• Husbands were called the "Lord" (1 Peter 3:6) kurios is "master" in the NIV.
• A son called his father the "Lord" (Matthew 21:30) kurios is "sir."
• The Roman Emperor was called the "Lord" (Acts 25:26) kurios is "His Majesty."
• Roman authorities were called the "Lord" (Matthew 27:63) kurios is "sir."

Most of them have used the "Jesus is kurios" and "God is kurios" to make the argument that they believe it means Jesus is God. I have showed them similar things that you have just done. It seems to not make any impact aside from making them stall for a bit, before the raise the same argument, again, even after it gets debunked.

 

[Runningman]

W

You do not believe in Christ Jesus. I'm sorry if I have pushed you to further extremism. I'm not the best apologist. A better approach probably would have called for less harsh push for you to address the passages that you neglect when trying to prove your theory about Christ Jesus. I can probably track more of the unitarians' bad doctrines beyond just reducing Christ Jesus to just fleshly living and separate from God.
If you have arguments to overcome the divinity of Christ, it could be a good time to start sharing those and see if they make sense to other people. Still, you have had a year to come up with something, so maybe you do not have it figured out yet.

When you talk like that, it makes me realize that perhaps this is one of those situations where it's akin to giving a baby food that is solid. It's offensive to you, makes you stumble, because you are not ready for it yet. You can't reason and understand, so you argue and blame me. The most basic things about God, such as the Father being the one and only true God, is not something you are ready for. You have a spiritual condition of the heart, I guess. I don't think any of us here can really help you with this. This issue is between Mike and God, but God won't force you to change either. People can be too far gone. I hope and pray that isn't the case with you.

 

[brightfame52]

In Titus 2:13, "Great God" has a definitive article before, but "savior Jesus Christ" has a possessive before. God and Jesus don't share the same possessive in Titus 2:13 so it is not implied they are the same person because they have two different determiners. For example, "the teacher and our friend John" is two different people. Titus 2:13 is proof God and Jesus aren't the same person.

1 Thess 4:14 is that "glorious appearing." i.e., "God will bring with Jesus" God is performing the action, but Jesus and those who have fallen asleep are receiving the action.

Read it all again carefully.

No it doesnt, because there is only one definite article for Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, The article is genitive possessive masculine, God is genitive mascu and Saviour Jesus Christ, the same Genitive, singular mascu, so its clear in the greek, one being is being described, The Saviour Jesus Christ is the Great God here, sorry buddy, you have been deceived, hood winked

 

[brightfame52]

You remind me of myself when I was a kid. My teacher could do calculus with his eyes closed, but I only wanted to argue with him and blame him when he said something that confused me. Really, it was my fault but my ego and pride wouldn't let me accept that. Sometimes we can be wrong and that's ok. The important thing is to be humble, grow, learn, and be better than we were before. Every day is a new day to begin so I hope today you will listen to what others are trying to tell you instead of just demonizing everyone who you can't understand. I am not asking you to outright agree with me right now, but just try to understand what we are saying here and pray about it.

Shortly on the Day of Judgment, you will bow to Him as God, believe that

 

[Runningman]

No it doesnt, because there is only one definite article for Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, The article is genitive possessive masculine, God is genitive mascu and Saviour Jesus Christ, the same Genitive, singular mascu, so its clear in the greek, one being is being described, The Saviour Jesus Christ is the Great God here, sorry buddy, you have been deceived, hood winked

Apparently no one agrees with you because the English translation is rendered exactly the way I said in the majority of translations. Let me guess, they're all wrong and you're right. That's it isn't it?

 

[Runningman]

Shortly on the Day of Judgment, you will bow to Him as God, believe that

No I will not and neither will you.

 

[brightfame52]

Apparently no one agrees with you because the English translation is rendered exactly the way I said in the majority of translations. Let me guess, they're all wrong and you're right. That's it isn't it?

Plenty of people agree with me, or I agree with them since they were b4 me. You sound like you haven't done any research.

 

[Runningman]

Plenty of people agree with me, or I agree with them since they were b4 me. You sound like you haven't done any research.

The Greek doesn't agree. "The Great God" and "The Savior of us" have two different determiners. It's still there. You can't make it go away with arguments buddy.



I also might add, many Trinitarian theologians of standing and reputation outright disagree with you!

MacLaren confesses the Father and Son could be distinct in Titus 2:13:
MacLaren Expositions Of Holy Scripture
"I am not going to enter upon the question of the interpretation of these words, which by many very competent authorities have been taken as all referring to Jesus Christ, and as being a singular instance in scripture of the attribution to Him directly, and without any explanation or modification, of the name, ‘the great God!’ I do not think that either grammar or dogma require that interpretation here. But I think that, if we take the words to refer distinctly to the Father and to the Son, the inference as to Christ’s true and proper divinity which comes from. them, so understood, is no less strong than the other interpretation would make it. "

Meyer's distinguishes between God and Jesus in Titus 2:13:
Meyer's NT Commentary
Ambrosius, however, distinguishes here between Christus and Deus Pater.[5] Erasmus, too, says: simul cum Patre apparebit eadem gloria conspicuus Dominus ac Servator noster J. Chr.; and Bengel says of ΘΕΟῦ simply: referri potest ad Christum. Among more recent expositors, Flatt, Mack, Matthies, Wiesinger, van Oosterzee, Hofmann, adopt the former view;

Expositor's argues that “the Second Coming of Christ may be regarded as an epiphany of the glory of God,” without implying that “God the Father” Himself appears:
Expositor's Greek Testament
The Second Coming of Christ may, therefore, be regarded as an ἐπιφάνεια τῆς δόξης Θεοῦ, even though we should not speak of an ἐπιφάνεια τοῦ Πατρός, while ἐπιφάνεια Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ is normal and natural.

You don't have many places left to hide.

 

[brightfame52]

No I will not and neither will you.

You'll be there, and will do this Phil 2:9-11

9Wheref ore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Now this was borrowed from the OT Isaiah Isa 45:21-23
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord Yahweh? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Rom 14:10-11

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

 

[brightfame52]

@Runningman

The Greek doesn't agree.

Yes it does: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/titus/2-13.htm JFB

the great God and our Saviour Jesus—There is but one Greek article to "God" and "Saviour," which shows that both are predicated of one and the same Being. "Of Him who is at once the great God and our Saviour." Also (2) "appearing" (epiphaneia) is never by Paul predicated of God the Father (Joh 1:18; 1Ti 6:16), or even of "His glory" (as Alford explains it): it is invariably applied to Christ's coming, to which (at His first advent, compare 2Ti 1:10) the kindred verb "appeared" (epephanee), Tit 2:11, refers (1Ti 6:14; 2Ti 4:1, 8). Also (3) in the context (Tit 2:14) there is no reference to the Father, but to Christ alone; and here there is no occasion for reference to the Father in the exigencies of the context. Also (4) the expression "great God," as applied to Christ, is in accordance with the context, which refers to the glory of His appearing; just as "the true God" is predicated of Christ, 1Jo 5:20. The phrase occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, but often in the Old Testament. De 7:21; 10:17, predicated of Jehovah, who, as their manifested Lord, led the Israelites through the wilderness, doubtless the Second Person in the Trinity. Believers now look for the manifestation of His glory, inasmuch as they shall share in it. Even the Socinian explanation, making "the great God" to be the Father, "our Saviour," the Son, places God and Christ on an equal relation to "the glory" of the future appearing: a fact incompatible with the notion that Christ is not divine; indeed it would be blasphemy so to couple any mere created being with God.

 

[Runningman]

You'll be there, and will do this Phil 2:9-11

9Wheref ore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Now this was borrowed from the OT Isaiah Isa 45:21-23
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord Yahweh? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Rom 14:10-11

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Nothing in the Bible says Jesus is bowed to "as God" nor does it teach that.

I am glad you mentioned Philippians 2. Read it again without your blinders on.

The "name" of Jesus is bowed to. Not "Jesus is bowed to" and Jesus doesn't get the glory for it. Rather the Father gets the glory.

We will bow at the name of Jesus to the glory of the Father. That's it. Jesus doesn't get the glory because he isn't God. That's Scripture.

Philippians 2
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[brightfame52]

Nothing in the Bible says Jesus is bowed to "as God" nor does it teach that.

I am glad you mentioned Philippians 2. Read it again without your blinders on.

The "name" of Jesus is bowed to. Not "Jesus is bowed to" and Jesus doesn't get the glory for it. Rather the Father gets the glory.

We will bow at the name of Jesus to the glory of the Father. That's it. Jesus doesn't get the glory because he isn't God. That's Scripture.

Philippians 2
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

You going to bow to Him as God, that's a promise

 

[Runningman]

@Runningman



Yes it does: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/titus/2-13.htm JFB

Question.. Is this one person or two persons in the example: "the teacher and our friend John"

 

[Runningman]

You going to bow to Him as God, that's a promise

Show me the verse about needing to bow to Jesus and I'll do it.

 

[brightfame52]

Question.. Is this one person or two persons in the example: "the teacher and our friend John"

JFB stands for Jamieson-Fausset-Brown. You do your own research

 

[brightfame52]

Show me the verse about needing to bow to Jesus and I'll do it.

I have showed you the verses I made that statement on

 

[Runningman]

JFB stands for Jamieson-Fausset-Brown. You do your own research

This is to help you see clearly. I assume you understand that "the teacher and our friend John" refers to two distinct persons. This is the same, exact, identical, grammar construct that appears in Titus 2:13. Look at more of the context of Titus, God and Jesus are always distinct. They don't abruptly merge into the same person before immediately disuniting again. You are being blinded by a bias.

God and Jesus are distinct persons:

Titus 1
1Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness,

4To Titus, my true child in our common faith:
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Titus 2
13looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

 

[brightfame52]

This is to help you see clearly. I assume you understand that "the teacher and our friend John" refers to two distinct persons. This is the same, exact, identical, grammar construct that appears in Titus 2:13. Look at more of the context of Titus, God and Jesus are always distinct. They don't abruptly merge into the same person before immediately disuniting again. You are being blinded by a bias.

God and Jesus are distinct persons:

Titus 1
1Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness,

4To Titus, my true child in our common faith:
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Titus 2
13looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

I gave you the scriptures already. You are now resisting them, but you will be convinced on the Day of Judgment when you stand before the Judgment seat of Christ Rom 14:10

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Same one as here Ecc 12

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

 

[Runningman]

I gave you the scriptures already. You are now resisting them, but you will be convinced on the Day of Judgment when you stand before the Judgment seat of Christ Rom 14:10

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Same one as here Ecc 12

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Got it. You refuse to accept that Jesus is not God so you threaten me with judgement even though you are in idolatry. Now is not the time to be playing games with your soul. So, let's see what happens then!

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

1 Corinthians 8
4So about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

 

[brightfame52]

@Runningman

Got it. You refuse to accept that Jesus is not God so you threaten me with judgement even though you are in idolatry.

Im saying scripture analysis shows He is God, and u reject it, then Im saying you will find out on Judgment Day. You will have a change of mind then, because scriptures says every knee is going to bow to Him as Lord ! You not excepted nor myself